A Serious and Sincere Question About Lina, TT, and Jesus

[Linnea]

Can you avoid that problem by saying "Jesus is divine" instead of "Jesus is God"? Or does that open up another can of worms?

(Not Christian here, so not sure what all the nuances are.)

[Boogalou]

I think this is pretty close, emmie, but the bolded statements are not quite right to me (not a theologian but a lifelong Christian). My husband pointed to John 14 verses 15-25 as the definition of Peace as Christians understand it, but I don't think it is very convincing. I think partly this idea that peace is personal has to do with the Christian concept of free will-- The idea is that Christ allows us to have peace within ourselves while the world is in chaos, conflict, and sin. It's an internal process... and now I get to quote John and Yoko- "War is over (if you want it)"! 8-)

Just as with Jewish theology, there are a lot of nuances surrounding Christian belief that are not being addressed here in the thread. As an aside: The fact that throughout this thread people are referring to Jesus as God (without invoking the trinity) is actually a heresy (Oneness Pentecostalism) and is really insulting to Christians.

Edit: Coherent thought is not my forte.

The bolded is basically my understanding as well. Jesus does not fulfill the prophecies in the way that they were originally interpreted. He does not bring world peace, rather he brings inner peace to those who believe in him. Which makes a belief in Jesus as the messiah not completely incompatible with the Old Testament. Again, this is just my understanding of the matter.

ETA: by the bolded I mean the bolding in the second quote, I'm just leaving the first quote in for context.

[emmiedahl]

I think a typical Jew would say: I don't need inner peace from Jesus. Already have that. I need a peaceful world, and that's why I am waiting for the Messiah. kthxbai

At least, that is what I would say.

[let-them-eat-cake]

Can you avoid that problem by saying "Jesus is divine" instead of "Jesus is God"? Or does that open up another can of worms?

(Not Christian here, so not sure what all the nuances are.)

This is what I believe but many Christians call me a heretic for it.

Non-trinitarian views are a touchy subject.

[fundyfunland]

These 2 drive me nuts from their ignorance, but I have to keep reminding myself that they are young, and allowed to be confused & seeking answers. My major issue w/ Lina is that she claims to be Jewish but isn't, and that one can claim to be Jewish & believe that Jesus was the moshiach. Not compatable!!!....as emmidahl has so eloquently pointed out.

If they continue to study further, they will inevitably come to the realization that Jesus & Judaism are not compatable. It's simple. I have a feeling however, that Lina & TT are only focusing on learning mitzvot here and there, and celebrating the Jewish calendar. Most of their info is probably from the first 2 chapters of Judaism for Dummies. I doubt they've even scratched the surface when it comes to Jewish exegesis.

[Lala]

My brother and his wife are very conservative Christians (although not fundies), and they are gravitating more and more towards Judaism. But their line of logic is the whole idea of that if we don't embrace Israel, then the US will be doomed. They celebrate the Jewish holidays, although if you asked them, they would have no idea what their origins are or what they even mean. They also follow pro-Israel websites, quote them all the time, and are generally just plain annoying. They think that Christianity isn't THAT different from Judaism and that it's ridiculous to discard the Law.

[Guest Anonymous]

I'm starting to think that Lina and TT don't have much of an understanding of Judaism (definitely) or Christianity (probably.)

"When I think about what is truly important in this life... The things that stand out to me the most are: fighting for the Temple! Fighting for the Holy Nation! Fighting to serve the Holy One, Blessed is He!..." -Cole Dodd

In an epic conversation about important things!

This is from the AJ N Paulina facebook page, and I guess Cole Dodd is TT's brother. Because Jesus was all about the fighting, and fighting is the most important activity! Also that reads a little scary, like it could have been lifted off of most any religious zealot's website. (The random capitalization of words must run in the family.)

Of course Jesus doesn't seem to agree with Taliban Tony and his militantly minded brother. When someone asked Jesus what was most important, he replied - “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind, and your neighbor as yourself.â€

I just have a horrible feeling about that guy. Lina frustrates the daylights out of me, but TT has always made the little hairs on the back of my neck stand up. He's creepy and I never want to be in the same zipcode with him.

[FaustianSlip]

I think a typical Jew would say: I don't need inner peace from Jesus. Already have that. I need a peaceful world, and that's why I am waiting for the Messiah. kthxbai

At least, that is what I would say.

Yeah, pretty much. Or, on days when I'm feeling snarkier, I would say, "I get a great feeling of inner peace from eating a Snickers bar or listening to a Beatles album, too, but I'm pretty sure Paul McCartney's not the Messiah."

As far as Lina, I guess I take my religion fairly seriously, but I can laugh about it as much as the next person. Heck, that's a proud Jewish tradition. There are lots of things about Judaism that seem really weird and bizarre to people who aren't Jewish (and some who are). The fact that Lina and Tony want to play dress-ups and mangle Hebrew... I think it's cultural appropriation, which is offensive, but whatever. I'm not going to lose sleep at night because some jagoff wants to wear his kippah to bed. However, I don't truck with deception and lying, and that's what I feel like Lina and Love have been doing for quite a while now. They started off slow, but in the last month or two, they seem to have thrown caution to the wind. Now they're not Messianic believers or whatever, they're Orthodox Jews! Orthodox converts, at that. And they can't wait to brag on all of the other Messianic types they know who lied their way though an Orthodox conversion. That is the stuff that really gets to me. You wanna play Fiddler On the Roof? Hey, knock yourself out. But don't go claiming that you're Jewish or a convert or whatever else when you know full well that you're neither, and don't blithely talk about how you're going to lie right to the faces of people in my community like there's nothing at all wrong with that.

More childishly, they also irritate me because you just know that should they realize their dream of an Ortho conversion, they won't be able to wait to tell everyone about how only Orthodox converts are "real" Jews and what schmucks us Reform and Conservative converts are. But that's admittedly stupid, and I'm normally a little more secure in my Jewish identity than that, so whatever.

[ChunkyBarbie]

I have two theories regarding Lina (TT hasn't blogged, so I don't know what goes through his head.)

1. Lina likes rules. Lots and lots of rules. This is evidenced by the fact that she has pined for a more controlling upbringing, vis a vis homeschooling, stay at home daughter, etc. Some people just crave structure and I think Lina is one of those people. Some people join the Army, Lina, it seems, embraced the mitzvot.

2. Which came first? The chicken or the egg? It isn't clear whether Lina started the Judaism obsession before she started communicating TT or after. My hunch is that Lina decided to latch onto the first guy to show an interest in her and has completely lost herself in the process. She went from fundy to frum in about 6 seconds, without really thinking about why. The only explanation is TT. He is the one who really needs to explain how they can practice Judaism and believe in Jesus at the same time.

She started writing about Yeshua (sp??) back on in October of 2006. I think Tony just lucked out that he and Lina had that in common. She wasn't even interested or attracted to him at first. I really believe it is the structure, rituals and "only we are doing this right" aspect that attracts Lina to faux Judaism and TT. She desparately wants to be seen as and feel extra special. She strikes me as someone who is truly insecure and endlessly searching for that something that will make them feel secure, special, and belonging to the powerful/special GROUP. I can't put it into words, but I truly believe that for some reason she has always felt like an outsider and is desperate to belong to something that is better than what others around her belong to. I wonder if she was picked on as a child for having immigrant parents. This is just what I feel/felt when I read her blog.

[Jewess]

I think Lina wants to embrace Judaism but is a Christian at heart, and there is no way of getting around that. If there are any Messianic Jews lurking, please share. We won't bite.

A good example: she does not daven, the most Jewish of all Jewish behaviors. Setting apart sacred space in your life is at the heart of most Jewish mitzvot that are not interpersonal. She can't take time out of kashering her kitchen to daven... really now.

Sorry, but I don't think not davening says anything bad about her. I know the anti Orthodox Jewish people will take issue with this post, but 3 times a day pray is considered to be a man's way of serving God. Women have to pray minimum of once a day, saying a praise of god, a thanks to god, and a request. It can just be 3 sentences like "Wow, God, the weather is beautiful today. Thanks for letting me get a good night's sleep. Please help me not scream at my kids today", or it can be a bit longer, the "grace after meals", or it can be a little longer, the morning prayers (birkot hashachar), or even shmoneh esre, the amida.

But the bare minimum is the praise, thanks, and request, and as long as a Jewish woman does that, she fulfills the requirement of prayer for her, but of course, she's welcome to pray more if she has the time and inclination.

Men's prayer requirements are just a tad more strict. (Understatement.)

[Beeks]

Sorry, but I don't think not davening says anything bad about her. I know the anti Orthodox Jewish people will take issue with this post, but 3 times a day pray is considered to be a man's way of serving God. Women have to pray minimum of once a day, saying a praise of god, a thanks to god, and a request. It can just be 3 sentences like "Wow, God, the weather is beautiful today. Thanks for letting me get a good night's sleep. Please help me not scream at my kids today", or it can be a bit longer, the "grace after meals", or it can be a little longer, the morning prayers (birkot hashachar), or even shmoneh esre, the amida.

But the bare minimum is the praise, thanks, and request, and as long as a Jewish woman does that, she fulfills the requirement of prayer for her, but of course, she's welcome to pray more if she has the time and inclination.

Men's prayer requirements are just a tad more strict. (Understatement.)

Lina has said she doesn't do this even once a day, though.

[Jewess]

Lina has said she doesn't do this even once a day, though.

She says she doesn't say thank you to God, doesn't make any single request from him, and doesn't show admiration to him?

Or says she doesn't do formal prayer?

Because frankly, I rarely either do formal prayer, and I consider myself to be a pretty good Jew.

[VeraAnne]

As an aside: The fact that throughout this thread people are referring to Jesus as God (without invoking the trinity) is actually a heresy (Oneness Pentecostalism) and is really insulting to Christians.,

Unless you are a Oneness Pentecostal (as I am) in which case refering to our beliefs as heresy is pretty insulting as well. Not going to open that can of worms, but it's probably best to avoid charges of heresy.

[Beeks]

She says she doesn't say thank you to God, doesn't make any single request from him, and doesn't show admiration to him?

Or says she doesn't do formal prayer?

Because frankly, I rarely either do formal prayer, and I consider myself to be a pretty good Jew.

I checked back and you're right - all she says is that she doesn't daven from the siddur every day. Of all Lina's crap, this isn't really something to nitpick.