Zach & Whitney Bates Part 6: That Thing In The Window Is Creepy

[AussieKrissy]

On 12/16/2018 at 1:27 AM, HarleyQuinn said:

I didn't know she became friends with Alyssa first. I always assumed she just met Zach when he was coming there to eat. 

Who was Alyssa's chaperone? Shouldn't she have made friends with two sisters at least?

[OyToTheVey]

26 minutes ago, AussieKrissy said:

Who was Alyssa's chaperone? Shouldn't she have made friends with two sisters at least?

I'm pretty sure Alyssa was paired up with Josie. They even shared a separate room.

[AussieKrissy]

1 minute ago, OyToTheVey said:

I'm pretty sure Alyssa was paired up with Josie. They even shared a separate room.

i ask only because was alyssa hanging out alone at that time? I thought they were big on chaperoning. Whitney doesn't mention anyone else. On further thought maybe it was when Alyssa was working as a florist.

[OyToTheVey]

Just now, AussieKrissy said:

i ask only because was alyssa hanging out alone at that time? I thought they were big on chaperoning. Whitney doesn't mention anyone else. On further thought maybe it was when Alyssa was working as a florist.

hmmm maybe because Alyssa had an outside job. I think Michael was out and about by herself too because she worked in that deli. But I think Whitney has mentioned before that she and Josie were super close because Josie was their chaperone a lot. 

[Melissa1977]

8 hours ago, OyToTheVey said:

hmmm maybe because Alyssa had an outside job. I think Michael was out and about by herself too because she worked in that deli. But I think Whitney has mentioned before that she and Josie were super close because Josie was their chaperone a lot. 

It is ridiculous for them to fake all that chaperoning issue. They have stated multiple times that Zach went to Whitney's restaurant while he was working. Are they trying us to think that a sheriff helper (or however it is called) picked up his little sister at his lunch time, just to be chaperoned un the restaurant? And it's obvious that they didn't have a chaperone the day they kissed. So yes, maybe they used a chaperone on cinema dates or romantic dinners to keep Gil and Kelly calm, but isn't hypocrisy a sin?

It's like when they said that Zach's phone was controlled when he was single. If a sheriff helper's cellular was controlled by his mommy he would have been the sheriff office joke. I don't doubt these boys have 2 phones since the day they turn 18.

[Syriana]

11 hours ago, Melissa1977 said:

So yes, maybe they used a chaperone on cinema dates or romantic dinners to keep Gil and Kelly calm, but isn't hypocrisy a sin?

 

Hypocrisy is a sin, by its very nature it means someone is lying - either to themselves or others.  What alternately amuses and disgusts me about many fundies is how they can recall vast chunks of the Bible, yet appear to have no idea how to put any of that learning into practice.  All too often there is very little honest Christian ethos being displayed.  The majority of these super religious, fundie families display hypocrisy left, right a centre. 

Zach and Whitney undoubtedly worked around the blocks and rules, they were adults in their own right and shouldn't have needed to do so...but they did.  I'll be interested to see what happens as their family grows up, they both seem to have a more 'real world' approach to life (although I'm certain some less than ideal philosophies still lurk - they at least have the manners not to force-feed them to anyone and everyone!).

[Kelsey]

I remember that Alyssa went to Sonic with Zach because Alyssa knew that he liked Whitney and played wingman. I think Kelly explained it on her old blog.

[Flossie]

I don't pay a lot of attention to the Bates, I kind of dip in and out of their subforum from time to time.  But I thought that Zach first met Whitney when she worked Sonic and he'd stop by for lunch.  Then I assumed that as they talked more and realized how much they liked each other he probably started trying to shift his visits for when she'd likely be on break, so they could sit together and talk some more.

At what point did Alyssa realize that these two adults needed a babysitter and start showing up at Sonic so she could keep an eye on them?  And for that matter, why would they need anyone there anyway?  Are the Bates so convinced that the heathen world is so damaged that Z&W could one day jump on a table and start having sex and no one would bat an eye?  Did she sit with them or just sit nearby?  Did she keep a spray bottle of holy water with her to spray on them if they looked too comfortable together?  <squirt squirt>  "Bad Zach!"  <squirt> "Bad Whitney!  You two are leaning way too far over the table.  I thought you might be going for a kiss!  Now back off and each of you give me two Bible versus about virtue!"  What if their hands strayed too close to each other?  <swat with a rolled up Bible>  "I think we're done here for the day.  You two are getting way out of hand.  Zach, present yourself to Mom and Dad tonight and be prepared to explain your behavior!"

[CarrotCake]

I don't think Zach and Whitney are hypocritical, it looked more like they never agreed with some of the rules anyway. It would be hypocrisy if they would preach that chaperoned dating is the only way but I have never heard that from either one of them.

 

[Palimpsest]

On 12/15/2018 at 2:30 PM, TeaELSee said:

The discussion about Zach and Whitney having a more normal dating relationship reminded me of something Zach said to his parents at the beginning of the episode about courting rules this year. It was great and pointed out the hypocrisy of his parents.

Kelly and Gil were talking about the stupid rules to all the kids to “train” the younger kids how to be a chaperone while deciding who is going to chaperone Josie and Kelton.  They asked Zach to demonstrate what is proper while on a date and he leaned over to kiss Whitney. Gil jumped up and yelled, no, no, no! He is not a good example.

Zach replied: Y’all show us all what YOU did on dates, we would love to learn from y’all. Y’all have lasted through 19 kids, what did y’all do?  (I looked it up so I could transcribe it, although this is not verbatim)

Nervous laughter followed by all.

Go Zach.

That is really hilarious.  An in-your-face call out of how none of the parents of Zach's generation grew up with the stupid courtship rules, Quiverfull crap, or extreme poisonous Patriarchal ideas they later espoused and forced on their children.  

Go Zach, indeed.  

Although the Bateses were one of the first families to modify their courtship rules publicly after Zach was humiliatingly rejected by Sarah Reith.  Mind you I think she had a lucky escape there.

On 12/17/2018 at 4:03 AM, Melissa1977 said:

I think it started at mid 80's but was popular in 90's and at the beginning of 2000. The last decade quiverfull has lost power, as fundie people has been becoming more mainstream (on the looks and probably regarding birth control, not on political beliefs), probably because the second generation forced that.

I think there are estimations of people in the main religious groups, like ATI. But it's impossible to say how many quiverfullers there are, because not all of them are/were in the main groups.

I don't think Quiverfull beliefs have necessarily lost power if you look at it as a global movement.  Some of the second generation of US QF *may* be dropping away, but others are being converted in all the time.

Nor do I think Quiverfull should be confused or lumped in with Christian Biblical Patriarchy, although they march hand in hand.  Also don't confuse them with the skirts-only, courtship  or homeschooling movements .   They are separate concepts and movements that came together in an unholy alliance in Gothardism.  And even within Gothardism some people embraced one and not the others, or perhaps two or three out of four or five. 

The Quiverfull movement was women-lead, and an anti-feminist and anti-contraception movement.  It started with (the repulsive) Nancy Campbell but became more wide-spread with the publication of Mary Pride's book in 1985.

Proponents of the Patriarchal Movement (and there are many) glommed onto QE very fast as it fit exactly into their women should be:  barefoot, pregnant, and in the kitchen.   

These movements all reach well beyond Gothard and IBLP.   Some have made inroads into more "mainstream" evangelical churches.  

So Gil and Kelly were in the forefront of Quiverfull and are deeply embedded in Christian Patriarchy movement.  The more scandals that are uncovered in the Patriarchy movement the better, but it is still going strong.  I don't see much evidence of it going away at all.

It is true that some of the fad ideas that they preached in the 1990s and early 2000s, like courtship, are dropping out of favor.  Particularly courtship - because Zach's generation has pretty much demonstrated that it doesn't work and some of them are getting very vocal about it.

But followers of these movements are almost impossible to quantify.

Edited December 20, 2018 by Palimpsest

[SassyPants]

The shows are really doing all the second generation Bateses and Duggars a huge disservice, because these shows are based on a certain message that has been voiced over and over again for years. Now, even it members want to have a change or evolution in beliefs, take for example, the use or any sort of BC, those changed beliefs could fly in direct opposition to the stated beliefs of these families. $$$$$$ VS truth. 

[nokidsmom]

5 hours ago, Palimpsest said:

That is really hilarious.  An in-your-face call out of how none of the parents of Zach's generation grew up with the stupid courtship rules, Quiverfull crap, or extreme poisonous Patriarchal ideas they later espoused and forced on their children.  

Go Zach, indeed.  

I am impressed that Zach tossed it back at Gil when Gil reacted "no!".   Obviously Gil didn't expect Zach's answer to the question of what to do on a date to be what it was.  But then again, it was probably a bad idea for Gil to pose that particular question to Zach, given his bad experience with courtship and following all the rules.   

 

[AussieKrissy]

I wonder if Whitney meet Zach and then got to know Alyssa through him and is now saying the other way around to better fit the chaperoning image?

[Kelsey]

They said it like Zach met Whitbey, liked her, but was too shy to make a move so he just ate a lot of Sonic. It wasn't in an Alyssa is a chaperone way. I'm going to have to hunt for the post. But it was definitely a Zach and Alyssa team up to get her number or something.

[HarleyQuinn]

That makes the fact that they kissed before marriage even funnier because clearly chaperone Alyssa didn't give AF. 

[Johannah]

Bradley is going to be 5 next year right? What are the bets on him starting kindergarten in 2020? Skipping preschool is one thing, but I just cannot picture Whitney homeschooling when she went to public school herself and doesn’t seem to think that it was ebil. She’s already converted Zach to Winnie the Pooh viewings, she works, wears pants. I predict at least a Christian school when Bradley starts kindergarten. 

[BeccaGrim]

@Johannah I think Whitney has said she is going to homeschool. But that was before the third child they want and the job so let's see what happens.  

 

As for the above comments, I read it as Alyssa introduced them not chaperoned them per se. I am trying to decide who their kids look more like. I think Kaci takes after Zach and Bradley looks more like Whtiney but then again he also looks like Carson so...

[Purrl]

4 hours ago, Johannah said:

Bradley is going to be 5 next year right? What are the bets on him starting kindergarten in 2020? Skipping preschool is one thing, but I just cannot picture Whitney homeschooling when she went to public school herself and doesn’t seem to think that it was ebil. She’s already converted Zach to Winnie the Pooh viewings, she works, wears pants. I predict at least a Christian school when Bradley starts kindergarten. 

I went to public school and loved it, but chose to homeschool my child. Not because I think public school is evil, but because my husband and I knew the one-to-one attention she’d get at home would be best for her.

[VineHeart137]

3 hours ago, Purrl said:

I went to public school and loved it, but chose to homeschool my child. Not because I think public school is evil, but because my husband and I knew the one-to-one attention she’d get at home would be best for her.

I also went to public school and while I don't currently plan on homeschooling, I am looking into alternatives to traditional public school. I definitely don't think public schools are evil, actually whenever I'm around peers who are talking about their middle and high school experiences I'm usually one of the only ones who says I actually liked my time there and wouldn't mind reliving the experience lol, but the schools in my area are unfortunately overcrowded, and as of right now, just knowing her personality, I don't feel that she will thrive in a large classroom setting. However I also don't think one-on-one attention is necessarily the right fit for her either. Hoping to get her in somewhere with relatively small class sizes and go from there. Anyway, all that to say that there are definitely reasons not to send your kid to public school besides thinking it's ebil lol. Just depends on the family and the kid.

People have said that both Whitney and Alyssa will be the ones to send their kids to at least a private Christian school, even though both have stayed they plan to homeschool. Will be interesting to see what actually happens.

[Iamtheway]

Every time I see this topic I sing ”that thing in the window is creepy” inside my head to the melody of ”how much is that doggy in the window”. Every time. 

[tumblr]

If any of the Bates Kids homeschool I am curious what curriculum they would use. I really can't see Whitney or Alyssa using ATI and there are actually a decent amount of not fundie homeschool curriculums out there. 

[miss_batson]

 

[Hisey]

On 12/21/2018 at 10:50 AM, BeccaGrim said:

I think Whitney has said she is going to homeschool. B

If she homeschools, I bet she'll stop around 5th or 6th. However, I think they may find a Christian school. We'll see! This seems like such a happy couple.

[19tacos&counting]

I could see Whitney homeschooling Bradley for K-2nd grade and maybe kaci for kinder. Then once baby 4 comes along I could see her sending the kids to a small private school by them.

[onyourwayhome]

I don’t think Alyssa or Whitney will choose anything other than homeschooling and I can’t for the life of me figure out why people keep saying they will. I expect they will use Abeka, which is very popular with small Christian schools and homeschoolers. They even have a video option, which Kelly mentioned on her old blog that they used. I know a ton of cool ass people who homeschool, many who aren’t religious at all. Traditional schooling is not appealing to me at all for my children. Schools are overcrowded and underfunded and many kids get left behind at either end of the bell curve.

The theory of private schooling doesn’t take into account these are one income families with multiple kids. I don’t believe for a second that Alyssa has $15-$45K a year to spend on elementary school for three kids (and we know she is very likely not done).