Zach & Whitney Bates Part 6: That Thing In The Window Is Creepy

[HideousGreenShirt]

That failed courtship was the best thing that could've happened to Zach. He and Whitney seem like a very natural fit and they're growing together, he seems to treat her as an equal partner. What a shame the same has not happened for Nathan yet. I don't hold out a lot of hope for him learning manners or common decency for his future bride. 

As for which celebrity I look like, I most frequently get Kourtney Kardashian and Selena Gomez. Both are gorgeous so that's flattering! 

Edited December 9, 2018 by HideousGreenShirt
Wordz

[Melissa1977]

10 hours ago, HideousGreenShirt said:

That failed courtship was the best thing that could've happened to Zach

Absolutely. He was going to marry a girl he barely knew, after a chaperoned non touching courtship. Plus he was very young and I'm not sure he had enough monthly income then. However, he met Whitney and they could talk, had intimacy (I mean, they were alone and kissed, which I think is very necessary before marriage and it's in no way a sin!), both of them had jobs and were young but not extremely young.

10 hours ago, HideousGreenShirt said:

That failed courtship was the best thing that could've happened to Zach

Absolutely. He was going to marry a girl he barely knew, after a chaperoned non touching courtship. Plus he was very young and I'm not sure he had enough monthly income then and to make things worse, Bates were still a bit isolated.

However, he met Whitney and they could talk freely, had intimacy (I mean, they were alone and kissed, which I think is very necessary before marriage and it's in no way a sin!), both of them had jobs and were young but not extremely young. Whitney had never been isolated and his job was helping him to overcome isolation.

Of course every couple has ups and downs. And it's difficult to judge someone for their IG pictures. But they have a comfortable life and probably both of them, for different reasons, are thankful for how things are going.

10 hours ago, HideousGreenShirt said:

That failed courtship was the best thing that could've happened to Zach

Absolutely. He was going to marry a girl he barely knew, after a chaperoned non touching courtship. Plus he was very young and I'm not sure he had enough monthly income then and to make things worse, Bates were still a bit isolated.

However, he met Whitney and they could talk freely, had intimacy (I mean, they were alone and kissed, which I think is very necessary before marriage and it's in no way a sin!), both of them had jobs and were young but not extremely young. Whitney had never been isolated and his job was helping him to overcome isolation.

Of course every couple has ups and downs. And it's difficult to judge someone for their IG pictures. But they have a comfortable life and probably both of them, for different reasons, are thankful for how things are going.

[feministxtian]

On 12/8/2018 at 2:47 AM, LurkerOverThePond said:

WTF is it with Bateses/Duggars and their kids sitting/standing on kitchen counters in a very dangerous way?? The first picture especially makes me almost nauseous thinking Kaci suddenly leaning backwards...

 

Kaci is old enough to not throw herself backwards. My granddaughters would sit on my counters while I was cooking/baking in the kitchen (they were around Kaci's age) and I never worried about it. Grandson loved to perch on the island while I was cooking too. Never once entered my mind that they'd try to dive off it. But then again, my kids and grandkids were notorious for falling and bonking their heads all the time. #2 granddaughter fell down our outside brick steps, hubby said it sounded like a bowling ball. She bounced up at the bottom and laughed. Grandson would faceplant in the saltillo tile on our back patio (different house) and whine a bit and take himself to the dog for consoling. #1 & #2 sons would jump off the garage roof at 4 & 7. Not even a scrape. 

I can only think of once where one of the kids took a hit to the head hard enough to seek professional advice. They had a mild concussion (I believe the kid was probably 8-9). 

[Iamtheway]

On 12/7/2018 at 3:56 PM, miss_batson said:

Well, i agree she could be pregnant, but i doubt she is so far along. Whitney misscaried late June, begining of July. And to have a baby before or around Carvan wedding would mean she concived again in August, and she would be around 4, 5 months pregnant now. If she is pregnant i predict baby #3 wont come before July or August 2019.

I misscaried late April and concived early June with Miniway so it’s totally possible. Basically all the married ones are inbetween (or waiting for their first) pregnancies and could concive at any time though.

[VelociRapture]

@miss_batson I agree with others that Whitney could definitely be pregnant enough to announce at this point. I miscarried in late February and conceived my daughter just under two months later. 

It all really depends on the individual person and their situation though. Some women have their cycles return to normal very fast, while others don’t. My miscarriage was very early (around 6 weeks), but I wound up with an extra two weeks added on to my already long cycles immediately following the loss. My body simply needed that extra time to return to normal I guess. And that doesn’t even take into account the emotional aspects of a loss for many people and how that can affect when (if) a couple decides to try again. 

So... it’s definitely possible, but we won’t know until/unless they announce a pregnancy.

[QuiverFullofBooks]

I was told not to have unprotected sex for a full cycle after my miscarriages because if I got pregnant I would “almost certainly” miscarry again. Is that another piece of crappy advice from my infertility nightmare?

[AussieKrissy]

29 minutes ago, QuiverFullofBooks said:

I was told not to have unprotected sex for a full cycle after my miscarriages because if I got pregnant I would “almost certainly” miscarry again. Is that another piece of crappy advice from my infertility nightmare?

I don't know, but my friend is 18 weeks pregnant, currently, she never got her period after her miscarriage. She immediately fell.

Did your doctor know the "Caleb, birth control kills babies doctor?"

I have never known anyone that has had/has infertility issues that has not gone on to have a baby. I know the pain they have gone to get their babies. Fortunately for the ones I love and care about, I have never not seen an eventual positive outcome. I would not know what to say to them. 

Infertility is devastating. You are right to call it a nightmare. I am glad that I have not seen the full horrors of it.

 

[VelociRapture]

8 hours ago, QuiverFullofBooks said:

I was told not to have unprotected sex for a full cycle after my miscarriages because if I got pregnant I would “almost certainly” miscarry again. Is that another piece of crappy advice from my infertility nightmare?

I was advised about this as well and I’m almost certain it was for dating purposes of the next pregnancy (though I can’t remember.) I fully admit that I should have listened, but I didn’t and I purposely got pregnant during the cycle following my loss. It worked out for us in the end because that pregnancy is now a healthy, happy, and perfect 2 year old... but I don’t think I’d do that again if I have a loss in the future.

[nvmbr02]

I lost a baby at 19 weeks and my doctor advised using BC until my period started back and then we could try again.  We followed that advice and I got pregnant right away again but had another miscarriage. I waited until my next period that time too and got pregnant a third time and that pregnancy ended in a healthy baby. If I could do it over again I would have waited 2-3 cycles to start trying. I am fairly certain that getting pregnant quickly didn't lead to my miscarriage, but emotionally it was tough and I should have given myself more time for emotional healing. 

My sister sadly miscarried last Friday. Her doctor advised her to wait 1 cycle as well, she was fairly early in her pregnancy but is of course devastated. I gently suggested she give her time to heal emotionally as well as physically. I have no idea if she will wait a bit or not as it is something she and her partner will have to decide but man is it hard to watch her heartbreak.

[miss_batson]

Whitney took her mom to New York . Well, not the only one who dreamed to see city over Christmas time ??

 

[HarleyQuinn]

Why am I so bothered by "If ya?"

That is a sweet thing to do though.

[JermajestyDuggar]

Whitney made a nice Instagram post about meeting Zach. It’s so different from most fundie love stories. I’m tired of the fundie stories where the girl is disinterested until god (and her parents) place it on her heart that this guy she’s not really into is actually her future husband. 

[HarleyQuinn]

I didn't know she became friends with Alyssa first. I always assumed she just met Zach when he was coming there to eat. 

[JermajestyDuggar]

1 hour ago, HarleyQuinn said:

I didn't know she became friends with Alyssa first. I always assumed she just met Zach when he was coming there to eat. 

I didn’t know that either. It shouldn’t surprise me. Alyssa was probably always the most worldly out of the 4 oldest sisters. 

[TeaELSee]

The discussion about Zach and Whitney having a more normal dating relationship reminded me of something Zach said to his parents at the beginning of the episode about courting rules this year. It was great and pointed out the hypocrisy of his parents.

Kelly and Gil were talking about the stupid rules to all the kids to “train” the younger kids how to be a chaperone while deciding who is going to chaperone Josie and Kelton.  They asked Zach to demonstrate what is proper while on a date and he leaned over to kiss Whitney. Gil jumped up and yelled, no, no, no! He is not a good example.

Zach replied: Y’all show us all what YOU did on dates, we would love to learn from y’all. Y’all have lasted through 19 kids, what did y’all do?  (I looked it up so I could transcribe it, although this is not verbatim)

Nervous laughter followed by all.

Go Zach.

Edited December 15, 2018 by TeaELSee

[JermajestyDuggar]

16 hours ago, TeaELSee said:

The discussion about Zach and Whitney having a more normal dating relationship reminded me of something Zach said to his parents at the beginning of the episode about courting rules this year. It was great and pointed out the hypocrisy of his parents.

Kelly and Gil were talking about the stupid rules to all the kids to “train” the younger kids how to be a chaperone while deciding who is going to chaperone Josie and Kelton.  They asked Zach to demonstrate what is proper while on a date and he leaned over to kiss Whitney. Gil jumped up and yelled, no, no, no! He is not a good example.

Zach replied: Y’all show us all what YOU did on dates, we would love to learn from y’all. Y’all have lasted through 19 kids, what did y’all do?  (I looked it up so I could transcribe it, although this is not verbatim)

Nervous laughter followed by all.

Go Zach.

Yep. And you can say the exact same thing about Michelle and JB. 

Do as I say, not as I do. 

[Rik_Bik]

Did Whitney graduate college?

[JillyO]

1 hour ago, Rik_Bik said:

Did Whitney graduate college?

Yes, she graduated with an Associate's degree in Medical Billing & Coding IIRC.

[JordynDarby5]

On 12/15/2018 at 12:30 PM, TeaELSee said:

The discussion about Zach and Whitney having a more normal dating relationship reminded me of something Zach said to his parents at the beginning of the episode about courting rules this year. It was great and pointed out the hypocrisy of his parents.

Kelly and Gil were talking about the stupid rules to all the kids to “train” the younger kids how to be a chaperone while deciding who is going to chaperone Josie and Kelton.  They asked Zach to demonstrate what is proper while on a date and he leaned over to kiss Whitney. Gil jumped up and yelled, no, no, no! He is not a good example.

Zach replied: Y’all show us all what YOU did on dates, we would love to learn from y’all. Y’all have lasted through 19 kids, what did y’all do?  (I looked it up so I could transcribe it, although this is not verbatim)

Nervous laughter followed by all.

Go Zach.

I loved that he asked that question. It was so awesome and unexpected. Yes, what exactly did you do on your dates? Do tell. Gil and Kelly never did answer that question. 

[ophelia]

I enjoyed that question as well and thought it was a pretty bold move.

Did Kelly and Gil ever really explain how they got sucked into QF and ATI? Michelle and JB always said that the experience of their miscarriage gave them the feeling that they should change their lives and that's how they stepped into fundamentalism, but I don't recall the Bateses ever stating something like this.

[Melissa1977]

5 minutes ago, ophelia said:

I enjoyed that question as well and thought it was a pretty bold move.

Did Kelly and Gil ever really explain how they got sucked into QF and ATI? Michelle and JB always said that the experience of their miscarriage gave them the feeling that they should change their lives and that's how they stepped into fundamentalism, but I don't recall the Bateses ever stating something like this.

Both of them came from deeply conservative backgrounds. Krlly's dad was a preacher, if I recall right. I suppose it was easy for them just to go further in that way.

They said that when they got married, they discussed about birth control. Kelly decided not to use it (I think she has been the leader, while made Gil thought he was the leader). Probably they were going to a fundie church or looked for one that fit their beliefs, and quickly started to dress frumpy and to grift. If they got married circa 1990, it was the quiverful gold age. I'm sure it was easier than now to find quiverful churches. 

In addition, I suspect they loved the attention for their amazing fertility and their ability to have healthy, cute kids. So once Kelly reached 6 kids in 7 years, she couldn't stop, because attention and *godliness* feeling were more important than properly feed those children.

[ophelia]

Thank you, @Melissa1977, for your insightful response.

Just now, Melissa1977 said:

If they got married circa 1990, it was the quiverful gold age. I'm sure it was easier than now to find quiverful churches. 

So when was the prime time of that whole movement and how popular was that lifestyle really? 1980ies? Are estimations how many people lived in this lifestyle?

[Melissa1977]

22 minutes ago, ophelia said:

So when was the prime time of that whole movement and how popular was that lifestyle really? 1980ies? Are estimations how many people lived in this lifestyle?

I think it started at mid 80's but was popular in 90's and at the beginning of 2000. The last decade quiverfull has lost power, as fundie people has been becoming more mainstream (on the looks and probably regarding birth control, not on political beliefs), probably because the second generation forced that.

I think there are estimations of people in the main religious groups, like ATI. But it's impossible to say how many quiverfullers there are, because not all of them are/were in the main groups.

[OyToTheVey]

Didn't Kelly say when her parents split up that's when she went with her dad and her sisters went with her mom. Her mom also adopted 2 kids after that. 

[JermajestyDuggar]

I think we’ve seen pictures of Kelly and the kids wearing regular clothing (shorts) when she only had like 3 young kids. I imagine they started dressing in the frumpy way sometime in the 90s after they already had a few kids. And then they met the Duggars in the mid 90s I believe. I think they met at Big Sandy or some other ATI event. So I would say their conversion probably wasn’t some huge change since they were already conservative Christian. But at that time, I’m pretty sure it was common to make out with your boyfriend even if you were a conservative Christian. That’s why they didn’t answer the question. Because I’m sure they did kiss before marriage and probably got handsy too.