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Alyssa & John 2: Getting By on Their Looks and Fashion Sense


HerNameIsBuffy

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6 minutes ago, Pecansforeveryone said:

I am coming more and more to think the same thing about Jinger. I, wanted her to take photography classes and do photography in fundie circles. Jinger may very well have wanted to wear fashionable clothes, travel a bit, get the heck out of Arkansas, and ....that's it. All of which has happened in abundance with Jeremy.  Alyssa and Jinger are probably as free as they ever wanted to be. I don't think questioning their families views on lgbt people, for example, was ever on their radar. It may never be. 

It actually makes me wonder if this is why sometimes the most rabid fundamentalist kids are the ones who break away.  They're at least thinking about things. They have ambition and are politically inclined. Diligence can be redirected, but ambivalence is hard to combat.

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1 hour ago, nausicaa said:

It actually makes me wonder if this is why sometimes the most rabid fundamentalist kids are the ones who break away.  They're at least thinking about things. They have ambition and are politically inclined. Diligence can be redirected, but ambivalence is hard to combat.

If you look at the Browns on Sister Wives - eldest daughter Mariah as come out as gay, and she has been quite vocally “left” She’s a pretty cool kid. But, indeed, she was the one who said, “oh I want sister wives” One of the best things that family does is support her. And, younger daughter Maddy, who looked more rebellious and also the one who was going places academically, at least is pregnant with kiddo 2. They said they weren’t planning a second till after college, which looks possibly like an nfp fail. Husband is a nice guy but quite Christian.

Interesting point.

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3 minutes ago, AliceInFundyland said:

eldest daughter Mariah as come out as gay, and she has been quite vocally “left” She’s a pretty cool kid. But, indeed, she was the one who said, “oh I want sister wives”

I remember the fundie who came here who was so extreme in his beliefs that he said he would personally stone our gay members if he could. Years later he came back to say that he had made a complete change in his beliefs and apologized for the things he said. 

I don't see any of the Bates being deep thinkers. I actually think Michaela is probably the one who thinks the most about what they believe. She is also the only one who hasn't had life be all sunshine and roses for her. She did everything right and yet she can't have a child. But being married to another IBLP worker would make it hard to openly question things. The rest of them get pretty much what they want, there is no incentive to question their beliefs and a whole lot of incentive to not think too much about what they  believe. 

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2 minutes ago, formergothardite said:

I remember the fundie who came here who was so extreme in his beliefs that he said he would personally stone our gay members if he could. Years later he came back to say that he had made a complete change in his beliefs and apologized for the things he said. 

I don't see any of the Bates being deep thinkers. I actually think Michaela is probably the one who thinks the most about what they believe. She is also the only one who hasn't had life be all sunshine and roses for her. She did everything right and yet she can't have a child. But being married to another IBLP worker would make it hard to openly question things. The rest of them get pretty much what they want, there is no incentive to question their beliefs and a whole lot of incentive to not think too much about what they  believe. 

I think about that as well. Zach has made a few comments, even though he’s still homeschooling and toeing the line. He has talked back in a snarky way - that’s about it. 

But as much as I agree with all your points. There is again, what we don’t see. Lots of littles who may wonder. Lots of non screen time. Screen time is staged. There are simply variables. So, I think that’s why the lights need to go off, and the money. That’s the incentive. No fans.

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1 hour ago, Pecansforeveryone said:

I am coming more and more to think the same thing about Jinger. I, wanted her to take photography classes and do photography in fundie circles. Jinger may very well have wanted to wear fashionable clothes, travel a bit, get the heck out of Arkansas, and ....that's it. All of which has happened in abundance with Jeremy.  Alyssa and Jinger are probably as free as they ever wanted to be. I don't think questioning their families views on lgbt people, for example, was ever on their radar. It may never be. 

What was it @nelliebelle1197 used to call Alyssa? #Superficialtwit?  :laughing-jumpingpurple:

Actually I hope both Jinger and Alyssa were a bit more analytical and level-headed about marriage.  I hope they looked for and found more in their spouses than the first boy to come courting that was open to wear jeans-wearing women, a ticket out of the Fundie family gulag, a meal-ticket for SAHM, and a potential sperm donor.

Those criteria alone would not be a good basis for marriage at all.

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2 minutes ago, AliceInFundyland said:

Lots of littles who may wonder.

The ones who have only grown up with distant parents and their lives being filmed are probably going to be more likely to question things. 

And some of the kids, especially the younger ones, have to wonder why Gil and Kelly mislead fans when it comes to their IBLP involvement. They purposely try to make it look like they are somewhere else when they are really traveling for IBLP

With this many kids someone is bound to eventually question everything. Unless they are the Arndts, none of them will ever question. 

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@Hisey

 It has been difficult for me to keep up with this thread because it's moving faster than I can post, but I wanted to say thank you so much for everything you have said. Some of your words were healing. Your points are accurate from my side of ex fundiedom. You've acknowledged the evolving changes as opposed to the complete and often unrealistic metamorphosis we demand of 2nd gens before we even consider they are different from those before them or around them. 

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Copied and pasted from front page of this sub forum:

Quiver Full of Bateseseseses

FreeJinger is not a Bates family fan site.

It seems to need repeating.

Those of you looking for a place where you can headpat the Bateseses all day long for wearing pants or dancing while still campaigning for bigots and shilling for a hateful cult without pushback...

This isn’t it. 

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So basically you are confirming that the definition of fundie around here is those groups who openly participate in conservative politics. 

Anyone posting here, who acknowledges that the Bates politics are harmful but notice differences or possible changes in them are in danger of being considered fans?

Yet other folks are allowed to post social media pics of these families, their lives and talk about their daily normalism in a positive light, but it is okay for those posts to go on without so much a friendly reminder that this is not a fansite.

Give me a break and let's not kids ourselves.

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1 minute ago, TatiFish9 said:

So basically you are confirming that the definition of fundie around here is those groups who openly participate in conservative politics. 

No, because some fundies don't get involved in politics. 

The thing is, fundies have trends and just because a particular trend has fallen out of style doesn't mean that those particular people aren't still fundie. The whole frumper trend with no dancing and only courtship is a dying thing among fundies. Their beliefs change and evolve and if you look at fundamentalism long term, it is easy to see this. Fundies in the 70's and early 80's weren't like fundies in the 90's. Fundies in the early 2000's aren't like fundies now. Superficial things change, but fundies tend to keep the really awful core beliefs. 

   IBLP allows girls to wear pants now. Honest question, do you think it means IBLP isn't fundie anymore? Alfred, Gothard's last remaining follower, dresses his family in totally normal clothing and even the daughters go to college, do you think he isn't fundie? The Bates let their daughters dress in pretty short dresses now and allow dancing, do you think the Bates aren't fundie anymore? 

 

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13 minutes ago, TatiFish9 said:

So basically you are confirming that the definition of fundie around here is those groups who openly participate in conservative politics. 

Anyone posting here, who acknowledges that the Bates politics are harmful but notice differences or possible changes in them are in danger of being considered fans?

Yet other folks are allowed to post social media pics of these families, their lives and talk about their daily normalism in a positive light, but it is okay for those posts to go on without so much a friendly reminder that this is not a fansite.

Give me a break and let's not kids ourselves.

I’m not confirming the definition of anything - I am not in charge of the FJ lexicon.

people post all kinds of leghumping shit here all the time and I don’t post a reminder each time becusee that would be a full time job.

but if I see someone posting, as you did, about how we don’t see these changes in them (changes which mean absolutely nothing in regards to their beliefs) and I think a reminder is necessary I’ll post it.

ill say it again - we’re not a fan site.  And if you want to laud them for meaningless superficial changes go ahead, it’s not against the rules.  But handslapping others for not sharing your warm fuzzies for them won’t be received well 

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I thought I would show some of the variety of fundies we discuss. We discuss very few frumper fundies anymore. They have all changed to more modern dress. 

Remnant Fellowship

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Remnant-Fellowship-Gwen-Shamblin-grandch

 

IBLP/ATI

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Sproul Jr. Isn't he some sort of reformed denomination? I know the reformed fundies tend to be down with drinking. 

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images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSghgr_-OeEGe-yvO7J_7G

 

The Maxwells who seem to be their own brand of crazy. 

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By looking at these it is easy to see that there is a lot of diversity among fundies. And it is hard to come up with a super narrow definition. 

There is no denying that the Bates and Duggar families have changed from their frumper days. It isn't that they haven't changed, it is that they haven't changed to not being fundie. Even among IBLP fundies there is diversity. Alyssa changing from being her parents version of IBLP to being the Webster version isn't a sign she isn't fundie, just a sign that she switched up what kind of fundie she is. 

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53 minutes ago, HerNameIsBuffy said:

I’m not confirming the definition of anything - I am not in charge of the FJ lexicon.

people post all kinds of leghumping shit here all the time and I don’t post a reminder each time becusee that would be a full time job.

but if I see someone posting, as you did, about how we don’t see these changes in them (changes which mean absolutely nothing in regards to their beliefs) and I think a reminder is necessary I’ll post it.

ill say it again - we’re not a fan site.  And if you want to laud them for meaningless superficial changes go ahead, it’s not against the rules.  But handslapping others for not sharing your warm fuzzies for them won’t be received well 

So reminders are necessary when you feel up to it? How inconsistent and convenient for you.

Also, beliefs? What beliefs specifically? Their political beliefs? Were we arguing their religious beliefs or were we attempting to define changes we have seen from the kiddults ?

Secondly, I didn't laud a damn thing. All I did was acknowledge a sound argument. You don't have to like it. Nothing I said was against the rules and I certaintly didn't hand slap anyone. I used the word *we* to acknowledge  that I also get frustrated when they don't change completely and fast enough.

I'll say it again myself, let's not kidsourselves about why you posted your reminder.

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Yes and yes, @formergothardite, they are changing...to a different kind of fundie. Thank you. "Hipster" fundies have been a thing for a good decade, decade and a half. They are fine with tattoos, piercings, drinking dancing, watching tv and movies, college even for the girls. Many send their children to public schools and most use family planning to limit their families to 2-4 children. 

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4 minutes ago, TatiFish9 said:

Were we arguing their religious beliefs or were we attempting to define changes we have seen from the kiddults ?

Their religious beliefs do influence their political beliefs. Alyssa married into a very political IBLP family and seems more than happy supporting the idea that the government can be used to oppress people her particular religion doesn't approve of. 

Sure the adult children have changed. So have Gil and Kelly. The question is, have they changed in a way that isn't fundie? From the pictures I posted above it is easy to see that they haven't done things that aren't fundie or even things that aren't IBLP fundie. They just aren't frumper fundie anymore, but then neither are Gil and Kelly. 

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I will go for the big guns here. If one of the Bates daughters stated publicly that was having her tubes after 4 children due to health problems (or whatever) that would be huge news here at Free Jinger. I would be the 1st to be astonished at that. It would be a big shift from Quiverful fundie. However, that daughter would probably be fundie still if she were staunchly anti-abortion and anti-lgbt and campaigning for Mike Pence for President. 

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14 minutes ago, TatiFish9 said:

So reminders are necessary when you feel up to it? How inconsistent and convenient for you.

Also, beliefs? What beliefs specifically? Their political beliefs? Were we arguing their religious beliefs or were we attempting to define changes we have seen from the kiddults ?

Secondly, I didn't laud a damn thing. All I did was acknowledge a sound argument. You don't have to like it. Nothing I said was against the rules and I certaintly didn't hand slap anyone. I used the word *we* to acknowledge  that I also get frustrated when they don't change completely and fast enough.

I'll say it again myself, let's not kidsourselves about why you posted your reminder.

What am I kidding “ourselves” about? 

Why do you think I posted a reminder if not in response to your fundy-headpatting posts?

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And to continue showing the diversity in fundies. 

Fundies can look like this:

Reformed Calvinist.

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IMG_6206-2.jpg

Like this:

Mortons, I'm not sure what denomination of fundie they are. This is an engagement photograph. Clearly no touch courtship isn't their thing. 

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Like this:

Chelsea Maxwell. This was before marriage, not sure what her family was. 

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And this:

Boyer sisters. Aren't they reformed something?

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images?q=tbn:ANd9GcS4M2Mpy9PJeBAvUTVgRae

If we narrowed the definition of fundie down to frumper only/no drinking/no dancing/strict courtship, virtually none of these people would qualify. These people aren't the obscure exceptions to the rule, they are pretty common. 

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All of the fundies I knew were pro-family planning, and I knew a lot of fundies. I just thought the Duggars and Bates were their own weird little thing until I came to Free Jinger and found out about the Quiverful movement. 

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@Destiny  @HerNameIsBuffy if the Batesseseses and Duggars have moved on from fundiedom should we not just close those forums and rename the site Free Abigail (Maxwell)?

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Just now, nelliebelle1197 said:

@Destiny  @HerNameIsBuffy if the Batesseseses and Duggars have moved on from fundiedom should we not just close those forums and rename the site Free Abigail (Maxwell)?

Sure. When y'all show me definitive proof, and I don't mean pants, makeup, and nose rings. They are still fundie, and no amount of painting it with a slightly different brush hides those hateful beliefs. 

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@formergothardite

I do not know how to separation quote. Please bear with how I styled my response.

 

"No, because some fundies don't get involved in politics."  This is an interesting take considering the foremost response to significant changes highlighted is that those changes do not matter because theses families still have harmful and oppressive views.  

"The thing is, fundies have trends and just because a particular trend has fallen out of style doesn't mean that those particular people aren't still fundie. The whole frumper trend with no dancing and only courtship is a dying thing among fundies. Their beliefs change and evolve and if you look at fundamentalism long term, it is easy to see this. Fundies in the 70's and early 80's weren't like fundies in the 90's. Fundies in the early 2000's aren't like fundies now. Superficial things change, but fundies tend to keep the really awful core beliefs."

  I agree with your trend comment. But are these awful core beliefs limited to fundie Christians or are many of them found within varying Christian groups, non-Christians and non-religious conservatives? Traditionally, practicing Christian denominations tend to be anti-abortion, anti-gay rights, have a strict idea about family values etc. Some groups are better at hiding it, dancing around the topic, or don’t ask don’t telling, but they are still there save a few progressive churches. 

I actually was a member of a progressive denomination. Whenever we did joint projects, we had to reach out to other progressive denoms or interfaith options. Regular old non fundie Christian churches ( you know the kind that drink and dance at their church gatherings lol) did not appreciate that we were open and accepting of gays and had prominent gay members. They would not do business with us. So what do horrible core values have to do with distinguishing fundies from other similar groups? 

With that said, I consistently value your opinion on all things fundie, but I have to disagree about what constitutes as a practicing fundie. I mentioned modest dress as an underling of purity culture. I was not speaking of fashion choices nor wearing pants (which has long been a debated topic among fundies as a misinterpretation of Deuteronomy 22:5). Fundies seeks to separate themselves from worldly behavior and all things deemed secular such as drinking, dressing in a revealing or provocative way, cursing, listening to secular music and therefore dancing to it, interest in things that do not decidedly put God first aka “Jesus talk” more so than the average conservative Christian. None of these things are superficial nor benign when people who embrace these ideologies truly believe they or others who practice these activities are damned to hell on earth and afterwards. Fundies inforce these ideals and have used them to condemn, abuse and suppress. There are often serious consequences for members who do not bend to the will of these ideals.      

"IBLP allows girls to wear pants now. Honest question, do you think it means IBLP isn't fundie anymore? Alfred, Gothard's last remaining follower, dresses his family in totally normal clothing and even the daughters go to college, do you think he isn't fundie? The Bates let their daughters dress in pretty short dresses now and allow dancing, do you think the Bates aren't fundie anymore? "

    Again, pants wearing is not my thing to define fundies. However, if I am allowed to be honest on this board with (or without) being considered a silly Bates fan, just before Gen2B Bates came of age I was starting to question what kind of Christians the Bates were becoming. I understand that celebrity fundies are a terrible example because they serve a “higher god” than the one they profess; that god is branding. Do I think their political beliefs are changing? No. Do I think their religious beliefs are? Yes. That's where it starts.

 To answer your question directly, I am not sure what type of Christians the Bates are anymore, nor am I sure that is matter when discussing topics around here save that their politics are shifting along with their changes. Furthermore, and dare I type it here, I wonder where IBLP is going now that Gothard and his cookoo, non-real world philosophies are no longer at the helm. Will they shift? Will they change significantly? Will they fall back deeply into the old order? Was current leadership waiting in the wings hoping to change things once the inevitable fall of Gothard occurred. Will they denounce fundie practices at large?

It will be interesting to see where they are at as an organization publically by the time say Callie or Jeb comes of age.  

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Question one for me is are they still attending churches led by IBLP members and believers or IFB churches?  So far they seem to be.  I don't know where Zach and his family are attending, but the last time we ran down the other churches, they were all either Gil's or IFB.  Odds are very, very great that if they are attending an IFB church or IBLP leader church that they are still fundie.

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