Alyssa & John 2: Getting By on Their Looks and Fashion Sense

[formergothardite]

Most of those things are things other IBLP families did and all of them are things fundies do.  The Bates in general have changed. Gil and Kelly are okay with dancing and their daughters wearing more revealing clothing. What are the signs they have dropped their parents awful core beliefs and didn't just switch from being a dress fundie to being a pants fundie like John Webster's family is? 

Changing superficial things and that other fundies do all while participating in sugar coating evil, doesn't make me think that they are really any less fundie. 

IBLP has changed with the times. They even let girls wear pants at some events! The days of being able to spot fundies by their frumpers has come to an end. 

So yeah, as long as they keep helping make evil look harmless I'm going to say that they are okay with the hateful things their parents stand for and stood for. 

There is real harm when people start viewing the Bates as less fundie. IBLP survivors have had their stories not believed because, hey the Bates run that and look how nice they are! They are just quirky Christians, not fundamentalist who hurt people with their beliefs! I've experienced this myself with people I know who don't want to believe that IBLP can be dangerous because the Bates family is a part of it and the people want to believe they are harmless. 

[singsingsing]

32 minutes ago, Hisey said:

Drink alcohol (can't remember but I believe it's happened)

It's better not to use things you can't remember to pad your argument. I also can't remember a single Duggar or Bates kid ever drinking alcohol.

34 minutes ago, Hisey said:

Let their little boys play with dolls and carry purses (Carson Paine)

...

Wear high heels (tons of the girls)

Fail to attend their parents' church, even when their father is the preacher (Erin Paine, and the visiting Webster family came along)

Wear tons of makeup (all the Bates girls)

I don't see how any of these things go against their parents' beliefs. The fact that they let Carson play with dolls and purses doesn't mean they're not enforcing strict, archaic gender roles at the same time. It's impossible to tell that based on one or two photos of him holding a doll or a purse. The Duggars always bragged about their girls learning more 'traditionally male' skills - doesn't mean they weren't enforcing crazy gender norms at the same time.

35 minutes ago, Hisey said:

Kiss before marriage (and who knows what else they did) (Zach Bates, you naughty boy!)

Yes, Zach Bates, the naughty boy who sincerely apologized to his parents for doing something as sinful as kissing before marriage.

35 minutes ago, Hisey said:

They know that by rejecting the big stuff they will hurt their parents' brand.

Uh, do they? First of all, Kelly and Gil's standards have evolved over time. Their strict definition of courtship started evolving after Zach's first failed relationship. Secondly, I would argue that the kidults know that rejecting certain things that they grew up with will very much help their parents' brand. It's all about appealing to a wider audience. This cult is a business, and Gil is one of its directors. They want to be appealing. If the kidults truly believed that their parents' lifestyle and political/religious views were wrong, they would not continue to participate in and support the family brand.

I respect wanting to be a dissenting voice, but the things you're listing are proof that they're evolving in their standards and trying to appeal to a broader audience, not that they're rejecting their parents' views. Their parents' views are evolving, too.

This is not a Bates fan forum.

[formergothardite]

Fundies in general are evolving when it comes to superficial things. It is actually happening pretty fast and I am not exactly sure what triggered it. The Kristina type courtships with a ruler are few and far between. Even Chelsea Maxwell is using the term dating. Jill Duggar has a nose ring. Miss Raquel got covered in tattoos. The Bates are okay with dancing and their daughters not covering up as much. Beall is working. 

They had to change to appeal to people. Same hideous beliefs, brand new exterior. 

[Palimpsest]

17 hours ago, Hisey said:

Why does everyone assume that the 19 Bates kids and the 19 Duggar kids all think exactly like their parents, and share the exact same beliefs? That is so unlikely.

Why do you assume that "everyone" assumes the same?  That is so unlikely.

2 hours ago, Hisey said:

That's easy! The Bates and Duggar kids have done lots of things to show they don't hold their parents' awful beliefs. I've seen Duggar and Bates kids do the following:

And every single one of your examples merely show disagreement with Gothard's restrictions,  NONE of them show that any of them have rejected extreme Fundamentalist beliefs. 

[singsingsing]

54 minutes ago, formergothardite said:

Fundies in general are evolving when it comes to superficial things. It is actually happening pretty fast and I am not exactly sure what triggered it. The Kristina type courtships with a ruler are few and far between. Even Chelsea Maxwell is using the term dating. Jill Duggar has a nose ring. Miss Raquel got covered in tattoos. The Bates are okay with dancing and their daughters not covering up as much. Beall is working. 

They had to change to appeal to people. Same hideous beliefs, brand new exterior. 

I'm personally convinced that it's the normal societal pendulum, and it's currently swinging more toward the liberal* side in reaction to the previous conservatism. Give it another decade or two and it will swing back toward the conservative side and we'll be seeing renewed calls for strict courtship, enthusiastically embracing quiverfull, etc.

*I use the terms 'liberal' and 'conservative' specifically in relation to fundamentalists, not in a broader sense. They're comparatively more liberal now than they were before, not in relation to broader society.

[formergothardite]

1 minute ago, singsingsing said:

I'm personally convinced that it's the normal societal pendulum, and it's currently swinging more toward the liberal* side in reaction to the previous conservatism. Give it another decade or two and it will swing back toward the conservative side and we'll be seeing renewed calls for strict courtship, enthusiastically embracing quiverfull, etc.

You are probably right. If FJ is around long enough we will see the swing back to frumpers and no touch courtships! 

[nickelodeon]

1 hour ago, formergothardite said:

Fundies in general are evolving when it comes to superficial things. It is actually happening pretty fast and I am not exactly sure what triggered it.

I'm looking forward to the stories we'll hear one day from people who were raised fundamentalist in the 2010s, especially the post-Gothard IBLPers. What did these changes look like from the inside?

[HurricaneBells]

3 hours ago, formergothardite said:

They had to change to appeal to people. Same hideous beliefs, brand new exterior. 

You can put lipstick on a pig but its still a pig....

[Melissa1977]

@Hisey no Bates or Duggar have drunk alcohol (at least, from what had been posted in internet).

And no Bates or Duggar have shown to be have less fundamentalist thoughts.

My only hope is that some of them, due to their personalities and their more mainstream way of life, make their kids' lives easier. Keeping their families relatively small, not beating kids heavily, allowing an eventual REAL education out of home, etc. But it would be just an improvement for them, not for the society, because they would still vote for taking rights away. 

And of course, out of 19 kids, there's a chance that someone really quits. That someone can express how people are equal and that religion must be a private issue. But look at Karen Shupe or specially to @woonaluna quitting fundamentalism has a high price and I understand some people are not strong enough to do.

[formergothardite]

The reality television money will make it only harder to openly leave the fundamental lifestyle. There is a lot of incentive to remain a fundamentalist because I doubt UP and the Bates is going to let an openly gay child or a daughter who says "screw this I'm moving out and leaving all of this behind" on the show. 

I'm also reminded of Jacob Roloff who quit the show and talked about how fake these reality television shows are. He said something like the family on the show isn't the real family, they are just playing characters and sticking to talking points and story lines the producers came up with. I wouldn't be surprised if one of the more forgotten Bates children does something like that and finally talks about how fake the show is. He also talked about how he didn't have a choice in having his childhood filmed and he resents it. 

We know the show is not showing reality because it leaves out such a huge chunk of their lives, IBLP. We see a sanitized version of the Bates on their social media and show, but that is not the reality of who they are.

[Hisey]

19 hours ago, singsingsing said:

It's better not to use things you can't remember to pad your argument.

LOL, no need to "pad" anything. I gave quite a long list. (I've thought of even more since that time.) In the interest of honesty, I added I couldn't remember the alcohol one clearly. But since you are so concerned, here it is! 

Really, though, if you want to make fun of a bunch of teenagers and young adults, go ahead. I'd suggest you read Girl and the End of the World, though. I just finished it last night. It's about the struggle of a young fundie woman and her husband, as they leave a remarkably Duggar-like cult. The story of her childhood is horrific. Beatings, "first time obedience", courtship. . .it's all there. Might give you a bit more empathy for the incredible loss these young people face, as they try to leave the communities they grew up in. 

 

[Palimpsest]

1 hour ago, Hisey said:

I'd suggest you read Girl and the End of the World, though. I just finished it last night.

 

If you have "just finished it" you might want to get the title of the book right.  I think you mean this book: Girl at the End of the World: My Escape from Fundamentalism in Search of Faith with a Future by Elizabeth Esther.  It came out in 2014, I think.  Her second book, Spiritual Sobriety  is good too.

Yes, Elizabeth Esther has been mentioned quite frequently here.  Most recently in a Josh Harris IKDG thread, I think.  She grew up in The Assembly cult not Gothardism.  I read it after and much preferred it to I Fired God: My Life Inside - and Escape from - the Secret World of the Independent Fundamental Baptist Cult by Jocelyn Zichterman.  Jocelyn stuck me as narcissistic although much of the information in the book was good.

Leaving Fundamentalism can be very hard indeed.  No-one is denying that.  We have quite a few members here who have done just that themselves.   I think people are just trying to point out to you that your examples do not prove the Duggars and Bateses are leaving extreme Fundamentalism, per se.  They are just modifying a few teachings and presenting themselves as more hipster Fundamentalists.

I think the mocking of the second generation here gets a bit out of hand and BEC too.  However, @singsingsing is one of out most level headed and least prone to petty criticism members so you missed your mark there.

[nelliebelle1197]

@Hisey nothing has changed around here except maybe you. This place has always been about picking on fundies of all stripes and you have been around a million years. You know that. I don’t know what magic the Bates have on perfectly reasonable fundie snarkers,  but I need to bottle it. Not a single ADULT Bates has done anything to denounce Christian fundamentalism. Nothing. They are marrying very young and popping out babies like rabbits. If anything, with Alyssa, she has adopted more of the Webster version of Gothardism.  The Websters were never frumper lovers. 

And yes, she has campaigned for her FiL.

[Pecansforeveryone]

@Hisey, you do realize you are posting alongside former fundies who have personal 1st hand knowledge of fundies world from the inside? @formergothardite is quite literally a former follower raised up under Bill Gothard. I have posted about my fundie mother who I love dearly. I can't think of a single poster in this thread who has ever mocked children. Rather I would say we are the 1st to call out mocking of and exploitation of children in any form. 

[Ali]

A Christian saying that drinking alcohol is not sinful is not proof that he or she drinks alcohol.

[nausicaa]

2 hours ago, Hisey said:

Really, though, if you want to make fun of a bunch of teenagers and young adults, go ahead... Might give you a bit more empathy for the incredible loss these young people face, as they try to leave the communities they grew up in. 

Yes, Hisey, we are just catty bullies, unlike yourself, who has shit on the Bateses for-- unfurls the Hisey scroll of BECness-- using box color, repainting their bedrooms, dressing their children in white, studying cosmetology, taking selfies, using the free Publix-provided smash cakes, not having sufficient "happy eyes" in their honeymoon photos, and wearing high heels. 

Some of the recent examples of your magnanimous empathy include

Quote

Alyssa herself, though, looks tired and older than 23 when she has a full face of makeup on. She is lovely, dont' get me wrong, but I think she is wearing herself out with all the pregnancies so close together. Slathering on all that makeup, coloring her hair till it's dried out. . . none of that helps her.

Quote

The Bates' girls who leave their hair dark are much more attractive than the ones who go for the fake bleached blond look.

Quote

To me, it seems her hair coloring dries out her hair and looks unnaturally bright. Same with Alyssa. If they left their hair alone, they would still be beautiful women. Maybe they are using cheap box color.

 

[formergothardite]

5 hours ago, Hisey said:

Really, though, if you want to make fun of a bunch of teenagers and young adults, go ahead

At some point we have to hold adults responsible for their actions. At this moment all the adult Bates children are making money participating in something that hurts the victims of IBLP. There is no indication they view their actions as wrong. 

[singsingsing]

5 hours ago, Hisey said:

LOL, no need to "pad" anything. I gave quite a long list. (I've thought of even more since that time.) In the interest of honesty, I added I couldn't remember the alcohol one clearly. But since you are so concerned, here it is! 

Really, though, if you want to make fun of a bunch of teenagers and young adults, go ahead. I'd suggest you read Girl and the End of the World, though. I just finished it last night. It's about the struggle of a young fundie woman and her husband, as they leave a remarkably Duggar-like cult. The story of her childhood is horrific. Beatings, "first time obedience", courtship. . .it's all there. Might give you a bit more empathy for the incredible loss these young people face, as they try to leave the communities they grew up in. 

I haven’t read the book, but I was a dedicated long-time reader of Elizabeth Esther’s blog for several years, so I know her story well. And if Elizabeth Esther had not rejected her cult, was still operating within its framework, pretending all was well and projecting a shiny happy image of it all to the world, I would most definitely assume that she was still deep in the kool-aid. I don’t understand why you would think her story is remotely analogous to the Bates kidults - they couldn’t be more different. No one is saying it’s impossible that some of them will leave in the future - we’re saying that there’s no evidence of that now. Which we’ve said over and over and over again. Honestly, this is ridiculous. There’s no point trying to have a discussion with someone who’s clearly not processing a word you’re saying and responding in ways that make no sense.

[AliceInFundyland]

I would like to think - in my most hopeful of moments -that the visible pendulum swinging away from extremism can -perhaps- make some of the kids start to quietly contemplate the what the fuckery of it all. Like, why, now, are we dancing at Carlin Bates wedding when we had to publicly leave Cousin Amy's en masse for the same reason? Tiny seeds of doubt about hypocrisy. That's about it. We won't know until they walk away and speak up - like young Mr. Roloff. The tv shows give them money, and the littles can't say anything yet. So, we can only speculate.

Plus, it is hard to walk away from your very huge family. Very. There are emotional bonds. That's a thing. We criticize them heavily and rightly for their beliefs. The shows have to end and the spotlight has to go off completely for a child or kidult to leave the Bates or Duggar complex. The "illusion" must die. They have no incentive to leave and every reason to stay.

People get into massive projection...and we need to keep reminding everyone that the changes are superficial. However, it is a long haul out of a cult and brainwashing. I've learned that on FJ. I'd like to think that out of the 38 kids, some have been blessed with critical thinking abilities. Time will tell.

[Pecansforeveryone]

It took me years to leave religion indoctrination behind, and I was never as sheltered/ undereducated as the Duggars and Bates. I am cautiously hopeful some of the "forgotten/lost" children may drift out of fundamentalism someday. However, as others have stated, the older ones have financial and familial reasons to stay and a lot to lose if they leave. 

[nelliebelle1197]

12 hours ago, formergothardite said:

At some point we have to hold adults responsible for their actions. At this moment all the adult Bates children are making money participating in something that hurts the victims of IBLP. There is no indication they view their actions as wrong. 

And most of them are married with children. They are not "young adults and teens" in the way most of us think of it. They are grown ups. And grown ups have to be responsible.

[HerNameIsBuffy]

1 hour ago, nelliebelle1197 said:

And most of them are married with children. They are not "young adults and teens" in the way most of us think of it. They are grown ups. And grown ups have to be responsible.

As I’ve always said about Anna Duggar when people give her a pass ...as soon as she chose to become a mother she lost her right to abdicate her responsibility for her life.

Once these people choose to bring children into their cult they have an obligation to protect their kids and if they can’t do that because of their cloudy thinking due to their upbringing ...shouldn’t be having kids until they can act on their own agency whatever that may be.

[LillyP]

My take on Alyssa is that she desperately wanted a "normal" more mainstream life....and she found a guy who was able to give her that within the parameters they can "get away with". There's no way a non-fundie guy was going to show up and get permission to marry Alyssa. Not happening. Gil would have never agreed to that....so it's basically picking the lesser of two evils.

At that point you've got two options:

A.) Someone like David Waller or Austin Forsyth who very much believes in a meek helpmate who continues to wear dresses and lets her husband have complete authority.

OR

B.) Someone like John who is ok with Alyssa working (cleaning business), wearing whatever she chooses, shopping, etc. 

Neither option gives you total freedom but when you are raised in an environment where you've NEVER been able to make any choices on what YOU want, a life with John might as well be total freedom. 

 

 

[nausicaa]

1 hour ago, LillyP said:

My take on Alyssa is that she desperately wanted a "normal" more mainstream life....and she found a guy who was able to give her that within the parameters they can "get away with".

 Also, I'm not sure there's much else Alyssa wanted that John isn't allowing her. She didn't express any interest in formal education or a career. She's not given any indication of being a deep thinker or very politically inclined. I think she likes being a housewife. She just wanted to be a housewife who could wear cuter clothes and have the freedom to go shopping and to lunch with her friends when she wanted. 

[Pecansforeveryone]

I am coming more and more to think the same thing about Jinger. I, wanted her to take photography classes and do photography in fundie circles. Jinger may very well have wanted to wear fashionable clothes, travel a bit, get the heck out of Arkansas, and ....that's it. All of which has happened in abundance with Jeremy.  Alyssa and Jinger are probably as free as they ever wanted to be. I don't think questioning their families views on lgbt people, for example, was ever on their radar. It may never be.