Maxwell 26: The Toothbrush Thing Is Real

[nvmbr02]

I'm not surprised at all. I figured Melanie would have at least one more. I do hope this is her last one. My grandmother had her 8th and final pregnancy at age 44, so 43 just didn't seem that far of a stretch to me. Yes, I know fertility does decline by the time you reach your early 40's (really before then) but I know so many women who had children in their late 30's early 40's, including my grandmother 3 of my aunts and my mother in law. 

I suspect NR Anna is also pregnant.

[Tim-Tom Biblethumper]

6 hours ago, IReallyAmHopewell said:

Yes, but today?

My ex-MIL had a friend named Dorcas.  Most likely born in the 1930's.  Confession:  I laughed the first time I heard the name.  I thought it had to be a joke.

[FloraDoraDolly]

18 hours ago, fundiefan said:

They're so lucky that *their* family values children. Because, no other family does. 

I'm grateful I live in a family that values mothers and knows when to stop risking lives to make the babies. Glad I have a family that values the children among us so much none of us wants to risk their mother's lives to try to make another human. Existing children get healthy, functioning moms. No sister in law work parties necessary to keep the home clean or the children educated in order to gestate a choice to risk lives. 

Sometimes the best thing you can do for your kids is stop having more kids.

[meee]

15 hours ago, nausicaa said:

I remember a conversation with people discussing Melanie's issues and worrying about her passing away and leaving the children motherless (Think this was two pregnancies ago? And I think someone with a similar condition chimed in?). But 1. I could be misremembering and 2. Even if I'm not, the FJ speculation train may have left Reality Station during that discussion.

 

Added:

So I checked, and it looks like you're right, I can't find the information on their blog about Melanie's health being at risk, just the babies. There have been three emergency c-sections and one loss. Below are from the birth posts for each kid:

  Hide contents

 

Susannah

Early in February of 2007, contractions were no longer occasional, and they picked up in intensity, causing Nathan and Melanie to make a late-night trip to the hospital, where doctors stopped the labor with medication. Melanie went on bed rest, and we praised the Lord for each day little Thumper could stay in the womb. Susannah earned the nickname Thumper for how active she was. Day after day went by, with continued contractions. Finally, on the evening of March 20th, contractions kicked in for real. The baby had already been given shots to help develop her lungs. At the hospital, labor progressed well. Doctors monitored the baby, and she was doing great. A little after 5 a.m., on March 21st, Susannah Joy Maxwell was born!

 

Abigail

"Baby arrived at 34 and half weeks – shocking us by showing up as a girl (and weighing 6 pounds 4 ounces). We had wanted to be surprised but felt it was a little boy; we were very wrong. While not our desire, she was delivered by a semi-urgent c/section. Both Melanie and Baby came through it great. Due to her gestational age when she arrived, she will be in care of the NICU for a little while longer."  

 

Bethany

"While not our desire, she was delivered by a semi-urgent c/section. Both Melanie and Baby came through it great. Due to her gestational age when she arrived, she will be in care of the NICU for a little while longer. We don’t know whether that means one week, two, or maybe more. However, even though she’s in the NICU, she’s strong, healthy, and alert! She has no IV’s connected, just a small feeding tube to help her with some nutrients while she’s learning to nurse. " 

 

Christina:

"After a very hard labor, the doctor deemed it necessary to do an emergency C-section, and at 1:57 p.m. Christina Mercy entered the world. She was 9 pounds 6 ounces and doing fine. Melanie is “okay,” and we are praising God for His mercy and grace. "

 

Drew: Written in a stupid "Drew's eye view" way, but pregnancy seems to have been fairly uneventful

 

Benjamin: Uneventful

 

 

After three C-sections wouldn't all future babies have to be C-sections as well? I thought even after one it's discouraged to try a regular birth.

[IReallyAmHopewell]

4 hours ago, meee said:

After three C-sections wouldn't all future babies have to be C-sections as well? I thought even after one it's discouraged to try a regular birth. 

I'd hope so, but these are the Maxwells.

[tabitha2]

I think Dorothy is a very possible option for a Maxwell Girl baby. Means “Gift of God” and can be shortened to Dora, Thea, Dolly Etc.

[nausicaa]

5 hours ago, meee said:

After three C-sections wouldn't all future babies have to be C-sections as well? I thought even after one it's discouraged to try a regular birth.

I know VBAC is a big trend (And I'm scared to say too much because I don't want to start a mommy war. Also I should point out that I have no medical background and don't even have kids, so take everything I say here with a big grain of salt). I've known women to go for a VBAC, but never after three emergency C-sections.

How many C-sections can one woman have? (Not rhetorical, I really don't know. I'm guessing you're not having 19 kids with c-sections every time). 

It does look like multiple C-sections can increase the risk of placenta accreta, which can possibly be fatal. Chances rise even more after six C-sections.

Also, is there any lasting difference between an emergency C-section and a non-emergency one?

[danvillebelle]

I had four c-sections with no complications.  My last OB said my uterus was in great shape (whatever the hell that means) and that if we wanted to have another baby I would be fine, but we were done.  

Ethel Kennedy had 5 or more.  

After the first one, I never had any desire to try for a VBAC.  NONE.  Whatever DNA it is that gives most women the urge to deliver naturally, I didn't get any.  I'm just happy they all got here healthy.

[fundiefollower]

I friend of mine has 8 kids, 6 or 7 of them were C-sections.... I think 7.  She had the third one vaginally I believe.  Each time her doctor gave her the clear for more babies.  She explained that he had told her that her uterus was in good condition and did not have excessive scar tissue.  The scar tissue is what is at risk for rupture in future pregnancies from what she said. 

[Palimpsest]

11 hours ago, Tim-Tom Biblethumper said:

My ex-MIL had a friend named Dorcas.  Most likely born in the 1930's.  Confession:  I laughed the first time I heard the name.  I thought it had to be a joke.

I've known two people called Dorcas.  One Catholic and one Protestant and both born in the 1950s.  They suffered during the 70s and onwards and one insisted on being called Cassie.  Not sure whether she changed her name legally.

Because I am a word nerd:  Dork as a slang word is comparatively recent usage.  In the UK dork roughly translates as uncool, and is quite out of date these days.  In the US dork originally meant dick.  Specifically whale penis.  So, yeah.

I think it is a pretty name and it is a pity it has bad connotations these days.

19 minutes ago, fundiefollower said:

I friend of mine has 8 kids, 6 or 7 of them were C-sections.... I think 7.  She had the third one vaginally I believe.  Each time her doctor gave her the clear for more babies.  She explained that he had told her that her uterus was in good condition and did not have excessive scar tissue.  The scar tissue is what is at risk for rupture in future pregnancies from what she said. 

It would make total sense that safe pregnancies after C-sections are dependent on the state of the individual uterus.  

We don't know what Melanie's risks are - except that she has to take progesterone to maintain the pregnancies, has had to go on bed rest with several pregnancies, and has had 3 unplanned C-sections followed by 2 apparently uncomplicated VBACs.

But because medicine is more advanced these days it is easy to discount the fact that a C-section is still major surgery and major surgery carries its own risks.  C-sections can also have post-op complications.  And the risks of major surgery go up as you get older.  

How many times should anyone risk all that to breed more arrows for the quiver?  I wish Nathan and Melanie would use birth control for the sakes of their existing children.

[fundiefan]

1 hour ago, Palimpsest said:

How many times should anyone risk all that to breed more arrows for the quiver?  I wish Nathan and Melanie would use birth control for the sakes of their existing children.

I think that depends on why you are having babies. Those making babies for god - they give little weight to medical recommendations, overall good ideas and risk. They are told god makes the babies, so they do it and deal with what that means. 

People having babies for reasons not related to any god or agenda other than having a baby, will consider surrounding factors. 

I don't think I'm saying that well. But, when you believe your god 'gives' you babies, and life begins at conception, you do whatever it takes to bring forth that gift from your god and get your rewards and give life. When you believe a baby is an addition to your family and an individual human being with no otherworldly role or purpose, you consider risks and make decisions based on that. Is it risky to have VBAC? Each woman is different. Women having individual human beings will consider their risk and decide. Women having babies for god will go forth and multiply without assessing. 

Four babies were born into my family in the last year. Two vaginally and two via c-section. One of the c-section deliveries was baby & c-section #2. That daddy had a vasectomy after she was born. They are done. They don't want to take any risk and have no reason to put having future children above the family they have and the fortunate outcome of two c-sections. They assessed the physical risks and future possibilities and chose to be a family of four. Mom doesn't want any more surgery and they do not believe their family does or will lack anything by raising the two daughters they're happy to have & raise. 

 

[Jana814]

2 hours ago, danvillebelle said:

Ethel Kennedy had 5 or more.  

I think she had 11 c-sections. All of her kids I think were born by c-section. Rumor has it she wanted to have more kids then her MIL and she did. 

[Hane]

Re “doing what’s best for the children you already have”: A colleague developed breast cancer in her early 30s, when her daughter was a toddler. After she had a clean bill of health, she decided against more children out of fear that the hormonal changes of pregnancy might cause the cancer to recur. She said, “Angela needs a mother more than she needs a baby brother.”

[Melissa1977]

Are we sure Drew and Ben were not born via C-section? Did they say it was natural or they just said nothing about it? 

I know vaginal birth after 1 c-section is OK, but after 3? Sounds weird, especially because Melanie was a high risk patient.

[mango_fandango]

Bethany wasn’t a c section, and she was home within 24 hours of delivery. And she *didn’t* stay in the NICU. @nausicaa checking again, it looks like you accidentally copied a bit of Abigail’s story into the Bethany section! Here’s the Bethany announcement post: https://blog.titus2.com/2010/08/15/bethany-faith-update-with-pictures/

So Bethany was a VBAC, although they do say in the first “She’s Here!!” post that it was a long and rough delivery.

[nausicaa]

36 minutes ago, mango_fandango said:

Bethany wasn’t a c section, and she was home within 24 hours of delivery. And she *didn’t* stay in the NICU. @nausicaa checking again, it looks like you accidentally copied a bit of Abigail’s story into the Bethany section! Here’s the Bethany announcement post: https://blog.titus2.com/2010/08/15/bethany-faith-update-with-pictures/

So Bethany was a VBAC, although they do say in the first “She’s Here!!” post that it was a long and rough delivery.

I'm sorry; you're right. It looks like that summary post then links to an Abigail post for some reason and I thought it was still Bethany. So Melanie has had two emergency C-sections.

Abigail and Christina were C-sections (after "very hard labors"). 

Bethany and Benjamin seem to be the easiest, no C-sections or other major issues.

Susannah was not a C-section but was severely premature and ultimately did not survive. 

Andrew was not a C-section but it looks like there were difficulties with the late stages of pregnancy/labor (it's difficult to tell with the strange way Sarah wrote his piece).

 

1 hour ago, Melissa1977 said:

Are we sure Drew and Ben were not born via C-section? Did they say it was natural or they just said nothing about it? 

I know vaginal birth after 1 c-section is OK, but after 3? Sounds weird, especially because Melanie was a high risk patient.

They confirm in the comments that Bethany, Drew, and Ben were not C-sections, though it looks like there may have been some other delivery issues with Drew. It doesn't look like her pregnancies and deliveries are as difficult as I once thought, but she's definitely not an Alyssa Bates. 

[PennySycamore]

@nausicaa, an emergency caesarean would be more likely to be performed using a vertical/classic incision rather than the horizontal "bikini" incision.  Classic incisions are considered more prone to rupture than bikini incisions and many previous c-sectioned women with classic incisions are ruled out of trial of labor for VBAC.  Then there are emergency c-sections (in that they aren't scheduled) and true emergencies where the baby must be delivered NOW.

I had three c-sections: the first was because the baby as just two big (emergency because not scheduled, but not true emergency), the second was scheduled, and the third was an emergency after a trial of labor due to fetal distress. She was also probably a bit too big to fit through my pelvis.  The OB remarked that I'd likely have no problem delivering an 8 pound baby/   I did have two VBACs after my third baby was born though.  The first of those VBACs was when I had my premie (same OB as with my third: "you don't need a c-section for a 2 pond baby" and my second VBAC and last baby was 8 pounds even.  

Also. I have a vertical skin incision, but not a vertical uterine incision.  I was so happy when the OB i had for my third (and 4th and 5th) showed me that bit of info on my medical records.  I was eligible to try for a VBAC and even though I did need another section, I was glad that I tried a VBAC.

@Melissa1977,  standards for VBAC have changed since I had my last baby in February 1991.  There was a period of time when VBAC was much more uncommon (late 90s/early Aughts. maybe?) but I think, just in the past couple fo years, there's once again a resurgence in willingness among OBs to attend VBACs.  (I could be wrong about this, though.)  Having more caesareans does increase the risk of rupture as there is a new incision with each section.  I don't know what the current criteria are among good OBs are. 

@Jana814, I think you're correct about how many c-sections Ethel Kennedy had. 

@Hane,  your post reminded me of a sad situation I knew about years ago.  A mom called one of my co-Leaders in LLL saying that she had ovarian cancer and had been told to wean so that she could undergo chemo.  She did not want to wean and sought my co-Leader's advice.  I don't know whether this mom eschewed chemo entirely, but I do know that she did not pursue vigorous treatment for her cancer.  This mother ended up dying a year or two later.  I know that ovarian cancer doesn't have the best prognosis at any rate, but to not do everything you can to be there for your daughter just baffled me.  You are more to your kids than just your breasts.

 

[IReallyAmHopewell]

17 hours ago, nausicaa said:

Okay--I was totally joking when I suggested "Dorcas." Didn't realize that this would take off like it did. I'm basically twelve and the name makes me laugh.

As far as being a Protestant name, it might not culturally be popular, but it is a New Testament name. Dorcas was a widow in Acts who Peter raised from the dead. The name is the Greek version of the Aramaic name Tabitha. 

The only other "D" female Biblical names I can come up with are Deborah (the most likely choice), Damaris (probably not, but that is a cool name and I am filing it away) or Delilah and Dinah-- both highly unlikely considering their stories. 

Steve's choice? "Die well" [found here https://slate.com/human-interest/2013/09/puritan-names-lists-of-bizarre-religious-nomenclature-used-by-puritans.html] which reminds me of many names in Malawi--Lovewell, Lovemost etc.

Devotion?

Dove?

Maybe they'll go hipster--Damascus? Diety?

Deliilah--lol

Desiree?

 

[fundiefan]

1 hour ago, PennySycamore said:

 

... A mom called one of my co-Leaders in LLL saying that she had ovarian cancer and had been told to wean so that she could undergo chemo.  She did not want to wean and sought my co-Leader's advice.  I don't know whether this mom eschewed chemo entirely, but I do know that she did not pursue vigorous treatment for her cancer.  This mother ended up dying a year or two later.  I know that ovarian cancer doesn't have the best prognosis at any rate, but to not do everything you can to be there for your daughter just baffled me.  You are more to your kids than just your breasts.

 

That makes me so incredibly sad.

I had an aunt diagnosed with breast cancer. She found out she was pregnant within days afterwards. She eschewed any and all treatment "for the baby". She died a year later, leaving her husband - my wholly unqualified, unable to cope uncle - to raise their 5 children, the youngest of whom was just past newborn. 

I know we don't all have the same values and are not required to think the same way - and shouldn't be - but I find it nearly impossible to even imagine choosing a course that would leave your children motherless. 

[Bazinga]

To jump in on the VBAC train, I had an emergency C-section (as in real emergency) and the OB performed a horizontal incision. I'm no doctor, but I'm guessing in an emergency situation, the type of cut they make is going to be based on the expertise of the OB and what they feel comfortable doing in an emergency situation. Several years later I had a successful VBAC. I expressed interest and was surprised by how encouraging my OB was. Then when it came time to deliver, my OB was not able to attend. I was worried the on-call OB wouldn't support the VBAC, but when he came in he was my biggest cheerleader. Everything in terms of attitude was completely different from what I read online. I won't go into a debate on VBAC safety, but I will just be another voice to say that if Melanie's c sections were done well, I could definitely see her having the last three as VBACs.

[Dru]

3 hours ago, Melissa1977 said:

Are we sure Drew and Ben were not born via C-section? Did they say it was natural or they just said nothing about it? 

I know vaginal birth after 1 c-section is OK, but after 3? Sounds weird, especially because Melanie was a high risk patient.

So I have a couple of close friends that have had lots of children (5+, which is loads for me) and from what I've gathered you can have a vbac at any point as long as your ob feels it's safe. So I think that means based on the condition of your uterus as well as your overall health? I know back in the day (80's/90's) they were more cautious. 

[FloraDoraDolly]

2 hours ago, IReallyAmHopewell said:

Steve's choice? "Die well" [found here https://slate.com/human-interest/2013/09/puritan-names-lists-of-bizarre-religious-nomenclature-used-by-puritans.html] which reminds me of many names in Malawi--Lovewell, Lovemost etc.

Devotion?

Dove?

Maybe they'll go hipster--Damascus? Diety?

Deliilah--lol

Desiree?

 

I doubt they will pick anything unusual, because their other kids all have normal names. I can't see them introducing their kids as Abigail, Bethany, Christina, Andrew, Benjamin, and Girl With Weird D Name.

[Dru]

I know we're all anti-Maxwell and anti-fundie, but honestly, from what I can tell Mel and Nate are doing better by their children (not just the boys) than lots of "progressive" (Chicago 'burbs) kids i know.

[singsingsing]

"These are our children, Abigail, Bethany, Christina, Andrew, Benjamin and Dust."

Yeah, I don't think so. 

This inspired me to go digging in my family tree for more Puritan names. They really loved the name Peleg for some reason. There're quite a few normal ones like Hope, Patience, Mercy and so on, and also an Experience (female), and a Freeborn (male). One of them had kids named Oliver, Cromwell, Prince, Love and Valentine. I think my favourite WTF Puritan name still has to be Preserved Fish, though.

Back to Nathan and Melanie, I think Chloe, Candace, Claudia or Charity are all pretty good possibilities for girls if they're going ABCABC. If they're going ABCABD, that's tougher. They could go the (A)ndrew/(D)rew route and name her (C)laudia and call her (D)ee.

If it's a boy I can't imagine them choosing anything other than Caleb.

[PennySycamore]

@Dru, the 80s were more liberal than the 90s regarding VBAC.  C-SEC (Cesareans: Support, Education, Concern)  published a booklet in 1982 about the possibility and advantages of VBAC and Nancy Cohen and Lois Estner published their book Silent Knife on VBAC the following year.  Nancy and Lois pointed out that the US was the only country where repeat sections were assumed and that VBAC could be a safe way to give birth.  

I heard Lois speak at the 1985 LLLI Conference in Washington, DC.  While she was still supportive of VBAC, she disavowed some things that were said in the book.  Those things just made her cringe.  The statement that women in developing countries "either birth or croak and they prefer birthing" which totally ignores maternal mortality in the countries was one of the things.  I imagine that Lois was also bothered by stuff that tended to blame women for breech birth.  Lois's first baby was breech and that's why she had a c-section.  Her second was a VBAC, but her third was also breech and a c-section as well, if my memory serves.  She didn't like the mother blaming and shaming that was part of the book.  

Things started to get more conservative about VBACs in the 90s after some studies showed increased maternal mortality from home VBAC.  I heard one OB/GYN who had a very high VBAC rate say on Lifetme's medical programming that home was not a place to VBAC.  We've learned more about the risks and benefits  of VBAC in the past 20 years and now many OBs are more comfortable recommending it with properly screened women.