Bontragers and Bowers 3: Kittens Having None of Their Shit

[fundiefan]

 I cringed the entire read through her latest. I couldn't find a single concept that made sense. It's very obvious she is desperate to marry and I've come to belive these posts are her singles ads.

[browngrl]

I just read Allison's post and: oh dear. 

She is not adjusting well to "losing" siblings to marriage at all. All of her points seems like straw men sorts of arguments and her whole post boils down to "I want everything to go back to the way it was or I want to be married myself". She needs to stop taking other people's life changes so personally and maybe just focus on working ways to move her own life forward. I am equally sorry for her and annoyed with her. 

Here's what I'd tell her to do: stop with the my sibling's marriages and me series and stop treating "not being married as an open wound"* and "stop picking at it"*. As an aside: not taking your husband's last name is not a rejection of their family Allison,  it is just wanting to keep your own name.

 

* credit for quotes to SusanAtTheLastBattle and HereticHick

 

Edited March 5, 2019 by browngrl
corrected HeretickHick to HereticHick

[Lurky]

When I read posts like this, and Jessica's Boyer's one about how Bridget was dead to her, I wonder what would have happened if they'd have married first.  Jessica Boyer talked about how she'd always assumed that as the oldest, she'd marry first, and I bet that would have happened, she'd have taken her hope chest and acted like the first woman in the world to ever have a husband/child.  But when it didn't work out that way, she's acted aggrieved that her angst wasn't everyone else's priority.  And I do understand, first hand, that depression can bring self-obsession - but wow. 

Over in the JRod thread, Jill has just written a blog about "choosing joy", where she gets to list all the things she's pissed off about, under the guise of writing about how she's not, and this feels like an opportunity to get some digs in at her sisters-in-law.  She may say she loves them, but there are some very pointed sentences in there!

[SPHASH]

Allison needs to forget about her married brothers and just get laid.

[JermajestyDuggar]

1 hour ago, SPHASH said:

Allison needs to forget about her married brothers and just get laid.

Seriously it’s so creepy. Imagine marrying a fundie guy and having to deal with Allison’s obvious grief and jealousy.

[Dominionatrix]

I'm DYING to know which of these came from or were generally inspired by the Max sisters. Perhaps they feel Chelsy has rejected and insulted the whole clan because she still blogs under "Chelsy Renee" and not "Chelsy Greatest/Only-Christian-Family-Ever Maxwell."

On the topic of singleness being an open wound, I do feel for her. What feels like the lion's share of my peer group has gotten married and started having babies in the past few years, and it can be hard to feel left behind, but @browngrl is absolutely right (and kind of convicting me!) when she says "She needs to stop taking other people's life changes so personally and maybe just focus on working ways to move her own life forward." I at least live in a world where it's considered both impolite and dull to talk about marriage ad nauseum, whereas Allison's seemingly been instructed to pray for her future spouse every night since childhood. 

Also, in the comments on one of her Valentine's posts, she basically confirmed that someone really had sent her condolences on her singleness! Living in that kind of social environment must be absolute torture.

 

 

[Lgirlrocks]

On her Valentine’s Day post she: 

+Wrote my brothers a card “from their future wife”.

Ok, this sounds a little strange, so let me explain: As I was thinking about what I wanted to do for Valentines this year, I got this idea. I have two really exceptional (not that I’m biased:) adult brothers (17+19) who are gonna make some blessed girls good husbands someday. I know, cause they treat me like a queen. Anyways, I thought it would be special to write a card telling them some things their future wife would say if she were here.  

Yes it is creepy. The attachment that fundie siblings have is gross. It’s sweet that her brothers treat her so nice but they aren’t her boyfriend. They aren’t her dates. 

I know it sucks being single when your whole life you’re told to get married and have babies ASAP. Quit acting like you are content and be real.

ad for her post today I agree with some of it. Treating your siblings in law as part of the family is great. Including them in things you do is great. 

 

[ophelia]

3 hours ago, Dominionatrix said:

Also, in the comments on one of her Valentine's posts, she basically confirmed that someone really had sent her condolences on her singleness! Living in that kind of social environment must be absolute torture.

If someone sent me condolences on my singleness, I'd rip that persons head off. 

I know the feeling of being left out, since I hardly have any single or childless friends anymore and would also love to be in a relationship and start a family. There are days where it breaks my heart and I feel desperate and devastated. So I can somewhat relate to her situation. 

I wonder what Cassidy, Carolina and Bryn really think about Allison since I always get a vibe that she probably can be really bitchy about her former boyfriends brothers.

[Melissa1977]

4 hours ago, Lgirlrocks said:

Ok, this sounds a little strange, so let me explain: As I was thinking about what I wanted to do for Valentines this year, I got this idea. I have two really exceptional (not that I’m biased:) adult brothers (17+19) who are gonna make some blessed girls good husbands someday. I know, cause they treat me like a queen. Anyways, I thought it would be special to write a card telling them some things their future wife would say if she were here.

(I'm quoting Allison words, not @Lgirlrocks!)

First of all, 17 and 19 year old are not adults. Well, 19 is legally an adult, but soooo young and with a lot about adult life to learn.

There's no connection between how a brother treats a sister and how this brother will treat his wife. Siblings relationship is different than marriage! It's not that difficult to understand!

There's nothing proper or healthy imagining being the wife of your brothers and writing those letters. She's not a 4 years old who wants to marry daddy. 

Alison is disturbing. Her old posts about making her brother feel manly. Her dates with them. Now those Valentine letters.

I think her parents should tell her to stop. And help her to find friends (boys and girls) or a job with workmates. She needs to socialize more. She needs to volunteer or do something REAL with other people.

The main problem is that Bontragers are so full of themselves that feel superior and raise kids feeling superiority. They only know to make concerts and ridiculous conferences to people who admire them. They lack contact with reality.

Bontragers seem desperate to marry sons, but forget daughters. Mama Bon is not gonna help Allison. 

[ophelia]

11 minutes ago, Melissa1977 said:

I think her parents should tell her to stop. And help her to find friends (boys and girls) or a job with workmates. She needs to socialize more. She needs to volunteer or do something REAL with other people.

The main problem is that Bontragers are so full of themselves that feel superior and raise kids feeling superiority. They only know to make concerts and ridiculous conferences to people who admire them. They lack contact with reality.

The sure lack contact with the real world, yet the Bontragers seem to be less sheltered and out of the world than a lot of the other fundie families we are snarking on. Allison works in the hotel/motel (whatever it is) and I don't think that only fundies spend nights there. She seems to have a lot of friends and very active in her church community. So isn't the totally sheltered and always at home unmarried daughter that for example Sarah Maxwell and her sisters are. 

But you are right, they are all so full of themselves and feel so superior to the rest of humankind that even interacting with the outside world won't do them no good since they will always stay in their echo chamber in which they are the absolut best.

[JermajestyDuggar]

Yeah, that’s what’s so crazy! Allison has a job working with people outside her family and they visit lots of people on tour! She isn’t like the Max daughters! Can you imagine how bad things would be if she was? Although she’s meeting with a lot of people on tour, I don’t think she wants to be there. I think she prefers to be at home at her job and with her friends. I think that’s part of why her posts have been so bad lately. Her parents should see this and let her stay home. They’ve let the single boys stay home in the past. But since she’s a female, she doesn’t get to. She must be really missing Chelsy and wishing she could see Axton. I bet when she gets home from the tour, she heads immediately to Chelsy’s. Unless Chelsy travels to their farm to meet them there. 

 

Edited March 6, 2019 by JermajestyDuggar

[HereticHick]

1 hour ago, JermajestyDuggar said:

 I think she prefers to be at home at her job and with her friends. I think that’s part of why her posts have been so bad lately. Her parents should see this and let her stay home. They’ve let the single boys stay home in the past. But since she’s a female, she doesn’t get to. She must be really missing Chelsy and wishing she could see Axton. I bet when she gets home from the tour, she heads immediately to Chelsy’s. Unless Chelsy travels to their farm to meet them there. 

 

I totally agree. Yes, she can meet a lot of guys while touring, but she can't stick around to get to know them. She should be allowed to stay home and work at the hotel--esp. after Bryn has the baby--so she can meet and court some nice local farmer.   She's got 3 married brothers (and their wives) around to chaperone her.  

The Bontragers insists that siblings be BEST FRIENDS FOREVER-- so no wonder it is devastating when you siblings marry and move out.

[JermajestyDuggar]

10 minutes ago, HereticHick said:

I totally agree. Yes, she can meet a lot of guys while touring, but she can't stick around to get to know them. She should be allowed to stay home and work at the hotel--esp. after Bryn has the baby--so she can meet and court some nice local farmer.   She's got 3 married brothers (and their wives) around to chaperone her.  

The Bontragers insists that siblings be BEST FRIENDS FOREVER-- so no wonder it is devastating when you siblings marry and move out.

I agree. Although she only has two brothers and SILs at home. Josh and Cass always go on tour. 

Edited March 6, 2019 by JermajestyDuggar

[HereticHick]

2 minutes ago, JermajestyDuggar said:

I agree. Although she only has two brothers and SILs at home. Josh and Cass always go on tour. 

True, I stand corrected.  Although I bet Cass will stop touring when she gets pregnant with #2--which I predict will be announced in the next 3 months.

[JermajestyDuggar]

20 minutes ago, HereticHick said:

True, I stand corrected.  Although I bet Cass will stop touring when she gets pregnant with #2--which I predict will be announced in the next 3 months.

Let’s hope! I can’t imagine touring while pregnant with a toddler! That sounds hellush. Although she would have many helpers with the toddler. 

And I imagine that if Allison has been home this tour, she would have visited Chelsy multiple times. So technically she has her two brothers and their wives at home. And you can even say she has Chelsy too. 

Edited March 6, 2019 by JermajestyDuggar

[usedbicycle]

7 hours ago, Melissa1977 said:

Bontragers seem desperate to marry sons, but forget daughters. Mama Bon is not gonna help Allison. 

Maybe it has more to do with the sons being able to pursue girls, while Allison has to sit there waiting. A fundie guy who wants to get married just needs to spot a girl he thinks is cute and have the balls to approach her father. A girl who wants to get married can do nothing but sit there and pray (lol).

A smart guy will approach a girl with a pretty chill father (seems like Curtis Bowers had no problem with his daughters getting married to very young guys with no money). So the girls with tyrant dads are really out of luck, no one will come banging on their door. I wonder how Merlin and Becky treat their daughters' suitors and if they've turned some away already. Some fundie parents do this without their daughters ever knowing. 

 

[JermajestyDuggar]

5 minutes ago, usedbicycle said:

Maybe it has more to do with the sons being able to pursue girls, while Allison has to sit there waiting. A fundie guy who wants to get married just needs to spot a girl he thinks is cute and have the balls to approach her father. A girl who wants to get married can do nothing but sit there and pray (lol).

A smart guy will approach a girl with a pretty chill father (seems like Curtis Bowers had no problem with his daughters getting married to very young guys with no money). So the girls with tyrant dads are really out of luck, no one will come banging on their door. I wonder how Merlin and Becky treat their daughters' suitors and if they've turned some away already. Some fundie parents do this without their daughters ever knowing. 

 

Chelsy hinted that John was not her first relationship. She didn’t say who. My guess was a Wissmann but I have absolutely nothing to back that up. Marlin might not be a tyrant but like you said, she still has to wait around for some guy to approach. Which must suck so bad. The young fundie guys she sees might not be interested in her (Jesse Maxwell, Stephen Wissmann, Charlie Bowers). 

[PlentyOfJesusFishInTheSea]

I wonder how much of this is a passive-aggressive complaint against Allison's sisters-in-law and/or the state of singleness itself.

These rules are simultaneously horrifically specific about sibling jealousy (emotional incest?!) and also incredibly bland and could be applied to anyone you are expected to get to know and build a relationship with - in-laws, friends of friends, coworkers...

I just went down a squicky hole on emotional co-dependence in siblings (sounds better than the other term, covert incest). Seems like dysfunctional parents are often to blame (and I'd guess many fundamentalist practices strongly encourage a dysfunctional family).

[JermajestyDuggar]

5 minutes ago, PlentyOfJesusFishInTheSea said:

I wonder how much of this is a passive-aggressive complaint against Allison's sisters-in-law and/or the state of singleness itself.

These rules are simultaneously horrifically specific about sibling jealousy (emotional incest?!) and also incredibly bland and could be applied to anyone you are expected to get to know and build a relationship with - in-laws, friends of friends, coworkers...

I just went down a squicky hole on emotional co-dependence in siblings (sounds better than the other term, covert incest). Seems like dysfunctional parents are often to blame (and I'd guess many fundamentalist practices strongly encourage a dysfunctional family).

We’ve seen two types of sibling emotional co-dependence in fundie families. One is the parent child relationship between siblings. We talk a lot about this type on FJ. It’s so very apparent when a small child is hysterical when their sister mom gets married and leaves. But I think the kind that Allison describes isn’t always as obvious. And I think some siblings likely hide this kind of co-dependence because of how it may be perceived by others. But Allisonis laying it all out there. I think there are other fundie families with siblings like this but we don’t talk about it on FJ because it’s much less obvious compared to the sister momming happening in fundie land. 

[PlentyOfJesusFishInTheSea]

I dont' always find Psych Today that credible (I swear I saw a story on ghosts on there once?!) but this article lays out conditions for codependency that seem pretty spot on for fundies:

https://www.psychologytoday.com/ca/blog/teen-angst/201310/codependency-in-children

"General rules set-up within families that may cause codependency may include:

• Don't talk about your problems or how you feel

• Feelings should not be expressed

• Be strong and "suck up" your problems

• Work hard, be good, seek perfection

• Strive to meet unrealistic expectations

• Do as I say not as I do"

Right from the J.O.Y, "keep sweet", "live like Jesus in purity and modesty" fundy handbook!

Not to say all dysfunctional families are fundy or the other way around. My secular family has some issues. But man, the whole "idolize the Victorians, 1950s, and other repressed and socially conservative people" idea really brings on the  dysfunction.

[JermajestyDuggar]

I think I’ve made this clear before but I want to make this clear again. These relationships amongst fundie siblings do not automatically mean they are physically incestuous. And I can’t back this up with stats but in my opinion, two siblings who actually are physically incestuous might actually be more likely to keep their distance in front of others. 

Again to be clear: emotionally incestuous does not equal sexually incestuous.

4 minutes ago, PlentyOfJesusFishInTheSea said:

I dont' always find Psych Today that credible (I swear I saw a story on ghosts on there once?!) but this article lays out conditions for codependency that seem pretty spot on for fundies:

https://www.psychologytoday.com/ca/blog/teen-angst/201310/codependency-in-children

"General rules set-up within families that may cause codependency may include:

• Don't talk about your problems or how you feel

• Feelings should not be expressed

• Be strong and "suck up" your problems

• Work hard, be good, seek perfection

• Strive to meet unrealistic expectations

• Do as I say not as I do"

Right from the J.O.Y, "keep sweet", "live like Jesus in purity and modesty" fundy handbook!

Not to say all dysfunctional families are fundy or the other way around. My secular family has some issues. But man, the whole "idolize the Victorians, 1950s, and other repressed and socially conservative people" idea really brings on the  dysfunction.

I’m glad I’m not the only one who has side eyed Psych today articles before. 

[Melissa1977]

3 hours ago, usedbicycle said:

Maybe it has more to do with the sons being able to pursue girls, while Allison has to sit there waiting. A fundie guy who wants to get married just needs to spot a girl he thinks is cute and have the balls to approach her father. A girl who wants to get married can do nothing but sit there and pray (lol).

Yes, but the double wedding smelled arranged marriage. I suspect Bontragers needed to marry sons young to keep them under control (married men are supposed to behave haha), while marrying a daugther means losing a maid. So maybe that's why they don't make things easy for Alison courting purposes.

 

[PlentyOfJesusFishInTheSea]

8 hours ago, JermajestyDuggar said:

I think I’ve made this clear before but I want to make this clear again. These relationships amongst fundie siblings do not automatically mean they are physically incestuous.

Agreed! "sibling co-dependency" sounds better to me. Either way, poor Allison needs to move on and form some new friendships.

[Black Aliss]

On 3/5/2019 at 9:27 AM, HereticHick said:

I'd love to know about this input: "Also, I’m grateful for the input from my sis Chelsy’s new sisters in law, Sarah, Anna, and Mary. They gave me terrific thoughts and ideas for this post, and it was really fun to chat about this topic and get their perspective."

OMG. When I read the excerpts from Allison's post I snarkily wondered to myself if she'd gotten her material from Sarah, Anna, and Mary. 

"Let your new husband visit his family without you once in awhile."

"Don't gloat to your spinsters sisters-in-law about how great marriage is!"

"Don't flaunt your mad cooking skillz by bragging that your husband loves your cooking."

Is it reasonable to speculated that the Maxwell Maidens don't much care for either Chelsy or Elissa?

[picklepizzas]

This emotional incest conversation is interesting in light of recent behavior in the rv of grifting - oldest son Tim sent his mother and older sister v romantic gifts for Valentine’s Day, and goes on “double dates” with her and their parents while the sibs wait for godly spouses. Apparently this is a creepy pattern in these families. (Also looking at you, Mortons. One of the girls runs an Instagram account devoted just to documenting her adoration for her brothers with hashtags like #gentleman #hero #gooddads)...

Edited March 7, 2019 by picklepizzas
Sp