Joy and Austin 25: Guest Starring Grandpa Munster

[JillyO]

23 hours ago, allthegoodnamesrgone said:

When you buy a kitchen for your rental what happens when you move? Do you take it with you to the next place? That would be a MASSIVE PITA taking cabinets and all the appliances. Do Germans do the washing machine in the kitchen as well? So you'd have to buy that too. 

Either you take it with you, or you sell it to the next tenant (if you can agree with them on a price, and your landlord agrees as well). It is indeed a freaking pain in the ass. But Germans move way less often than people in the U.S. tend to, so it's less of an issue than you may think. I lived in my first apartment (moved in when I started college) for four years and then when I moved in with Mr. O we lived there for five years before we moved to the U.S. In Berlin, kitchens have to have at least a sink and stove. Sounds like that's not the case elsewhere in Germany. My roommate and I did have to buy a refridgerator, kitchen cabinets, washing machine, etc. I brought all of that with me when I moved in with Mr. O, and we also bought a dishwasher (first apartment didn't have room for one). When we moved to the U.S., we sold everything to the next tenant (who was a friend of mine, so it was super easy for both sides and we gave everything to her for a steal). And yes, in German rental apartments, you'll usually find the washing machine either in the bathroom (if it's big enough) or in the kitchen.

There's pros and cons to everything. I definitely prefer fully furnished kitchens as is the norm here in the U.S. On the other hand, rental apartments here tend to be a lot more run-down than they are in Germany, where they are generally renovated after each tenant moves out. And I can't even fathom having to remove my flooring like in the Netherlands, but it seems like they make it work. It's mostly just whatever you're used to!

[AliceInFundyland]

Dear rufus. I can’t imagine having to manage my own flooring. I take that as a given. I suppose, if I could have consistent worry-free health care, I might wrangle with flooring...but it sounds very frustrating. I have not liked the majority of my dwellings enough to commit to things like floors and appliances. And cabinets? Yikes.

[Purrl]

Why would you have to have your own flooring? Is that for sanitary reasons?

[SilverBeach]

No floor! In a rental unit! How are people who need subsidized housing supposed to afford to buy flooring?

I think this is one area in which the US may have an advantage. Fully furnished and applianced kitchens, with floors, are the norm in apartments. Even a home missing cabinets and floors would be deemed a fixer-upper and that would be reflected in the price. 

I do not like laundry in the kitchen or bathroom, I need a separate laundry room or at least laundry closet.

[lumpentheologie]

Yeah, the needing to buy your own kitchen as a renter is so weird to me in Germany.  I always either sublet or rented from owners who lived there, so I never had to buy my own kitchen, but we currently have my husband's washing machine in our basement storage because the roommates we live with now already had a washing machine, and my husband is convinced that having your own washing machine is what makes you an adult. They are quite a bit smaller than American ones, so there's that. 

We currently have a washing machine in the kitchen, and I love it. It's amazing not to have to lug laundry to a laundromat, and I've even gotten used to most of the wash settings taking between 1.5-3 hours. I do like that there are way more customizable options for temperature, spin, etc.  

What I really dislike is having a dorm fridge for 4 adults. At least in the cold part of the year we can use the balcony for additional food storage. 

[Marly]

6 hours ago, SilverBeach said:

No floor! In a rental unit! How are people who need subsidized housing supposed to afford to buy flooring?

 

This is definitely a problem. The only reason I was able to buy flooring was because I had a savings account, but a lot of low-income households don't have that. There are a lot of outlet stores that sell very cheap flooring, but it's still an expense. My neighbours here (this is anecdotal, I talked to 4 neighbours about flooring,) either used savings, searched for huge discount offers, or had family/friends who helped out.

[Someone Out There]

In regards to furnishings/kitchen appliances I don't think the Australian system is that bad.  Basically you have a kitchen with cabinets, sink, potentially a dishwasher.  But in general the appliances are BYO (so fridge, Microwave, Washing Machine), along with your own furniture.  Places that have the fridge and washing machine are considered as partially furnished.  When I was first renting by myself I was in an older apartment with a shared laundry, this had its pros and cons.  There are also some fully furnished places if that is desired but they tend to be more expensive and are usually shorter term options.

There are other issues with the Australian rental system though... (particularly in terms of longevity of rentals).

[Glasgowghirl]

Most older homes in the UK don't have separate rooms for laundry or don't have a basement to put them in so the kitchen is where it went. Our washer and dryer has always been in the kitchen, so it was never strange to me. 

 

[AliceInFundyland]

But why? Do they just replace it with each new tenant? That is so wasteful. What is the logic? Obviously you can’t move your floor because that is custom to each location. 

We have replaced building owners and the other apts have had turnover. They have nicer floors than me now. I am jealous.

[CarrotCake]

It depends on where you rent though. I rent from a private landlord and it is including flooring (but as I said, no kitchen appliances).

The shit with moving the floors I mainly know from the subsidized housing. The stupid thing is though that you either have to take it out or sell it to the next tenants. A lot of times a new tenant will say: I don’t want to buy it because I don’t like it that much. But I am being nice and you don’t have to take it out, you can leave it without the trouble.

I would just take it out then, if you don’t pay you don’t get it ?

[SilverBeach]

13 hours ago, Someone Out There said:

But in general the appliances are BYO (so fridge, Microwave, Washing Machine),

I was flat-ass broke when I graduated college and if my first apartment didn't have a murphy bed, I wouldn't have had a bed at all. No way I a could have bought all these things. The American way worked well for me.

Seriously, how do you temporarily install flooring? Is it usually just vinyl that rolls up, or bound carpets? Tile or hardwood would be out of the question, I imagine. Is just a wooden subfloor provided, or cement? This is almost like bring your own walls, floors are such a fundamental part of a dwelling.

[AliceInFundyland]

This is by far one of the most fascinating things I have learned on FJ.

[Nomorethanfour]

When we lived in Germany, our house had two kitchens. One with cabinets, dishwasher , and stove. The second kitchen had nothing but the water hookups and the vent where you would put the stove. Luckily, the military has everything you need to make a kitchen. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[StraightOuttaArkansas]

On 2/1/2019 at 6:02 PM, allthegoodnamesrgone said:

When you buy a kitchen for your rental what happens when you move? Do you take it with you to the next place? That would be a MASSIVE PITA taking cabinets and all the appliances. Do Germans do the washing machine in the kitchen as well? So you'd have to buy that too. 

Yes it seems that most people try to sell them on to the next tenant. I also think it would be a pain. In my experience some people do, some don't. My MIL has her washer and dryer in an extra built in in the kitchen, it would be the only place they could fit anyway, but are also meant to go there. My SIL has them in her basement of her house. Both of my apartments had the hook ups in the bathroom, which was really not the best space. One apartment we are applying for has it in the downstairs bathroom, but the other from the same company just a different building has them in the kitchen. I think there is no rhyme or reason for the placement in Germany. (For reference I was in Bremen and now we looking in east Germany in Thuringia)

On 2/1/2019 at 8:28 PM, PlentyOfJesusFishInTheSea said:

My Dutch (former) roommate told me that in Netherlands, you have to buy flooring for where you rent. That got a bigger "um, what" than a kitchen. Luckily, when she moved back to Netherlands, she bought the floor and some random furniture from the previous people. It does seem like a weird arrangement that the tenants are stuck selling it off when they move. Presumably few people want to remove tile or hardwood or whatever when they move!

I had an apartment that came "without floors" too! Similar to what @Marly described. It was also low income housing. The floor was like the covering in a school classroom? I put carpet over it and in my contract I was allowed to do that, but not even allowed to offer it to the next renter. It was lovely carpet too. My neighbor across the hall did not bother with anything and just put down some rugs over top.  I don't think tile or hardwood would be allowed though since it needed to be removable. My next apartment had a strict no floor coverings policy in the contract and it was unclear if that even meant area rugs. It was laminate and honestly, it would have been to that lady's benefit to tell me to put as many rugs as I wanted. The cheaper kind is tough to care for and with a elementary aged boy who loved hot wheels, it ended up rather scratched. Just to add after reading further: yes it is an issue for low income people. We did have an Ikea knock off that sold laminate flooring very cheap. My FIL (my ex's dad) at the time wanted my son and I to be comfortable and footed the bill for floors. I used a strong double sided tape made for this purpose to hold the carpet down. I worked very well.

On 2/1/2019 at 8:33 PM, nastyhobbitses said:

Weird feature of UK flats versus US apartments/homes: no light switches or outlets in the bathroom. I get that it's for safety, but it's super annoying if you want to blow-dry or heat style your hair, or if you're really drunk and can't find the damn light switch so you're not pooping in the dark! 

Also, I luuuuuurve having a washer/dryer in my flat. I had to haul all my laundry to the laundromat in New York (it was just two blocks, but when you have a giant load of laundry that feels like two miles), and now I just have to walk like three feet to my utility closet. It's so much better! 

 

On 2/1/2019 at 8:55 PM, PlentyOfJesusFishInTheSea said:

Huh, is that true of all flats in the UK? I was just there in summer and can't remember. (I'm like 55% sure the Air BnB bathroom had an outlet because the owner provided a hairdryer.)

We are currently in the UK, in a rather old house (~1920's-ish) and I can confirm we have no outlet in the downstairs bathroom (but the sink is same room) and the light pull. The upstairs bath is split with the toilet in its own separate room (no sink). That bathroom has one outlet on the furthest side of the room. We got sick of it after two day and ran an extension cord along the wall with a European multi-plug at the end over to where the mirror is. Also just a light pull. Kitchens also have a light pull. I don't know if newer houses are the same, but I got ripped to shreds on my expat group on FB for a joke about leaving the extension cord fix when we move (it was german/euro plug, of course we will remove it!?!?) and told that the building regulations are very specific about how close an outlet can be to a water source. So they appear to still have strict rules here.

[just_ordinary]

21 minutes ago, StraightOuttaArkansas said:

Yes it seems that most people try to sell them on to the next tenant. I also think it would be a pain. In my experience some people do, some don't. My MIL has her washer and dryer in an extra built in in the kitchen, it would be the only place they could fit anyway, but are also meant to go there. My SIL has them in her basement of her house. Both of my apartments had the hook ups in the bathroom, which was really not the best space. One apartment we are applying for has it in the downstairs bathroom, but the other from the same company just a different building has them in the kitchen. I think there is no rhyme or reason for the placement in Germany. (For reference I was in Bremen and now we looking in east Germany in Thuringia)

I had an apartment that came "without floors" too! Similar to what @Marly described. It was also low income housing. The floor was like the covering in a school classroom? I put carpet over it and in my contract I was allowed to do that, but not even allowed to offer it to the next renter. It was lovely carpet too. My neighbor across the hall did not bother with anything and just put down some rugs over top.  I don't think tile or hardwood would be allowed though since it needed to be removable. My next apartment had a strict no floor coverings policy in the contract and it was unclear if that even meant area rugs. It was laminate and honestly, it would have been to that lady's benefit to tell me to put as many rugs as I wanted. The cheaper kind is tough to care for and with a elementary aged boy who loved hot wheels, it ended up rather scratched. Just to add after reading further: yes it is an issue for low income people. We did have an Ikea knock off that sold laminate flooring very cheap. My FIL (my ex's dad) at the time wanted my son and I to be comfortable and footed the bill for floors. I used a strong double sided tape made for this purpose to hold the carpet down. I worked very well.

 

We are currently in the UK, in a rather old house (~1920's-ish) and I can confirm we have no outlet in the downstairs bathroom (but the sink is same room) and the light pull. The upstairs bath is split with the toilet in its own separate room (no sink). That bathroom has one outlet on the furthest side of the room. We got sick of it after two day and ran an extension cord along the wall with a European multi-plug at the end over to where the mirror is. Also just a light pull. Kitchens also have a light pull. I don't know if newer houses are the same, but I got ripped to shreds on my expat group on FB for a joke about leaving the extension cord fix when we move (it was german/euro plug, of course we will remove it!?!?) and told that the building regulations are very specific about how close an outlet can be to a water source. So they appear to still have strict rules here.

Yes, I think my English in-laws said that Health and Safety demand that uncovered(?) electrical outlets have to be about 3 metres away from the water source and many bathrooms are just not that big. So you find vanity tables in the bedrooms where people can dry their hair and get themselves ready. In Germany we often have the outlets right next to the sink. Vanity tables are not a thing in most homes as far as I am aware. Only in richer circles or with people who are really heavy into make up.

And yes, many flats in Germany come without kitchen. But often you can buy of the kitchen from the people that rented it before you. Having a kitchen sized in makes it almost impossible to fit it completely into a new place. The counter at least just won’t. Many take their appliances though. But it’s also true- we just don’t move a lot. Students often live in shared flats - so when one moves out someone new comes in. Kitchens are often a bit of a mix and match. Students probably move to most (from one shared flat to another in the same town). The rest often stays in their flat for years till they need/can afford something bigger, move away or buy property. Same goes for buying. People often just buy once in their lifetime. The prices often just make it impossible to do it more often, we often buy only if we are sure we will stay for a long time/forever. Very different from the UK and US as far as I experienced it.

[PlentyOfJesusFishInTheSea]

I love learning random stuff on FJ. Thanks, all! My sister lives in the UK; I will check out her bathroom next time I'm there. (I'm all for electrical safety but has anyone in North America ever electrocuted themselves by splashing water from the sink onto the outlet? Hmmm. Electrocution in the bath, I've heard of.)

[Meggo]

19 minutes ago, PlentyOfJesusFishInTheSea said:

I love learning random stuff on FJ. Thanks, all! My sister lives in the UK; I will check out her bathroom next time I'm there. (I'm all for electrical safety but has anyone in North America ever electrocuted themselves by splashing water from the sink onto the outlet? Hmmm. Electrocution in the bath, I've heard of.)

What I find COMPLETELY odd - we have a bathroom at the cottage that has the light switches outside the bathroom because they were "too close" to a water source. But hey - totally have that PLUG right next to the sink - totally makes sense. (aren't you more likely to be electrocuted by a hair dryer falling into a sink than you are flipping on a light switch?) 

Our electrical guy was named Ike - so we often joke that we got Ike'd. There are light switches in strange places, one light switch we can't even figure out where it goes to. It's all very strange. 

[Bad Wolf]

US voltage is 110. England is 240. That may be why there are pull cords near water sources.

[Glasgowghirl]

My bathroom has a light switch outside it, I'm used to it but one downside to is that people can turn the light on or off while you are in the bathroom. My 12 year old nephew switched it off while I was on the toilet a few weeks ago.

Some bathroom's may have smaller voltage outlets for shaver's or electric toothbrushes.

[SassyPants]

4 hours ago, Glasgowghirl said:

My bathroom has a light switch outside it, I'm used to it but one downside to is that people can turn the light on or off while you are in the bathroom. My 12 year old nephew switched it off while I was on the toilet a few weeks ago.

Some bathroom's may have smaller voltage outlets for shaver's or electric toothbrushes.

We had that situation growing up, and we always , purposely turned the light out on other sibs when they were showering. 

[Pete Pickles]

Anyone notice Joy’s IG pic with her hair braided? Looks like she got a serious haircut to me, but I could be wrong. 

[allthegoodnamesrgone]

It does look like it. 

 

[Iamtheway]

On 2/2/2019 at 3:10 PM, Marly said:

This is true. I currently live in subsidized housing*, so rental, and my appartment came without flooring. My rental agreement also states that I have to remove all the flooring when I move. So even if the next tenant would be interested in taking over my flooring, per my rental agreement that would not be possible. It was possible in the place I lived before this. The girl that took over my room also took over my flooring. Whether or not the next tenant can take over your flooring really depends on your contract, but it is the norm here that rental apartments are handed over to the tenants completely 'bare', so to speak.
When I moved into this appartment the kitchen had a sink and two cupboards (white). I had to buy all other appliances, and I also bought extra cupboards because two wasn't enough. My washing machine is in the kitchen as well.


*These are rental apartments or houses specifically for low-income households. The government determines the maximum amount of rent that housing companies are allowed to ask for these houses (which is around 720 euros per month, excluding utilities). 

This is so weird to me. How can the flooring not be part of the apartment? And what do you do with it when you move? 

In Sweden flooring, kitchen and appliances are all included when you rent or buy. There’s not always a washing machine in the apartment but apartment buildings usually have common laundry rooms. 

[Marly]

8 minutes ago, Iamtheway said:

This is so weird to me. How can the flooring not be part of the apartment? And what do you do with it when you move? 

 

If your contract allows it you can try to sell it to the next tenant, which is what most people do when given the option, and if your contract doesn't allow that you will have to take it out. You can then either take it with you to your next appartment or throw it away. Our contract states that we have to take it out when we move out. We have linoleum flooring as that was the cheapest option (only "soft" types of flooring were allowed, so no tile or hardwood, and since my SO has asthma we could't do carpet) and depending on when* and where we'll move we will probably take what still looks good and isn't completely worn down yet with us and throw away the rest.

*Like in Germany, people here generally don't move that often, so chances are that by the time you move, especially if you had a cheaper type of flooring, your flooring has been worn down to the extent that taking it with you isn't really an option anyway. For instance, looking at my own situation, we have been living in this appartment for 2 years now, and I don't see us moving within the next two years (unless one of us manages to land a ridiculously high-paying job). We will likely not move before we're able to buy, and I think that will take at least another two years. We have a cheaper type of flooring, and except for the flooring in the kitchen (it is really damaged there in some places), if we were to move right now it would probably still be worth it and possible to take most of the flooring with us. But I think that in two, three years' time most of the flooring will be too worn down to be really worth it to take it with us to a new place. 

[FundieCentral]

Also German here: The kitchen thing is a little insane, but not quite as insane if you consider the following things: 

1) We don't buy houses at nearly the rate that Americans do. Most people I know rent. Once you are in a contract, your rent cannot go up more than a certain amount, or even not at all in some contracts. The contract cannot be terminated except for uninhabitable conditions or once the landlord moves back in (where I live). So lots of people I know live in their rented apartments for 20-30 years. They live in a starter apartment from 20-40, then child-friendly apartment from 40-60, and then senior apartment from 60-the end. So you really only move your kitchen 2 times. And oftentimes, you buy it from the previous tenant or leave your old kitchen and get a new kitchen anyways. 2000 euros at Ikea for the whole thing

2) Kitchens where I live are much smaller than American ones. I have never seen fridges like in the US here (taller than a person, wider than a wardrobe, with electrical outlets and a water machine and stuff integrated). We don't usually have dryers. Most people I know don't have China sets, or many other kitchen devices (microwaves, waffle makers, sandwich makers, kitchen machines, smoothie makers etc) that people often have in the US. So really when we moved with a kitchen we had: 
1) a small fridge 
2) a stove & oven (electric; gas is quite rare as well)
4) a sink integrated in a cabinet 
5) a cupboard with drawers 
6) two top cabinets 
7) a washing machine 
8 ) a small dishwasher 
9) a vent 
So it's not ideal at all, but it's not as insane as moving a full-sized American kitchen