Josiah and Lauren 12: Usual Duggar Social Media and Drift

[HurricaneBells]

I was told to wait two years before falling pregnant again even but I do not think this is the norm, it was an emergency, it was fast and they were brutal, i still have pain even now and he will be 4 in two weeks. 

[Lullu-Beanz]

On 11/9/2018 at 2:29 PM, viii said:

I read that article while I was at work, and Lordy did my heart hurt for that woman. I wish they had done a follow up interview. I hope she’s okay and has a beautiful baby in her arms. 

I'm not caught up on this thread, so I don't know if anyone linked it, but I did find a later interview with her.

https://www.thecut.com/2018/06/she-had-an-abortion-at-8-months-then-a-surprise-pregnancy.html

[just_ordinary]

6 hours ago, BernRul said:

From my understanding, that's not what cultural Catholics are. Cultural Catholics still identify as Catholic, and may attend church on holidays such as Christmas and Easter or participate in Catholic ceremonies such as weddings, but they are not religious and might even be atheist. It's similar to being culturally Jewish, in that the religious identity is often tied to ethnicity, and that Catholics used to face discrimination in America so it still distinguishes us in a way. 

What you're describing just seems par for the course for Catholics. That's why I think there is a strong difference between fundie Catholics and most Catholics: because most Catholics don't follow every single thing the Church teaches. Something like 95% of Catholics  disagree with the church's stance on birth control. My aunt, who is so Catholic that she attends daily mass, made her husband get a vasectomy. I personally believe that Catholicism is about more than the Vatican; it's the nuns and brothers, local parish priests, and the lay people that really define what it means to be Catholic. Some of them do a great job (through charity and corporal works of mercy) while others make me want to pull my hair out (like the ones who only vote for pro-life candidates). 

Yeah, there are very fundie, extremist Catholics out there, but I feel like most Catholics (the religious ones, not cultural ones) are more open minded compared to evangelical fundementalists. They don't believe everything the priests say, don't conisder the Bible to be literal, believe in science, take some liberal positions (the Church is against the death penalty, the use of torture, most wars, and is usally pro-poor). The Church is a mess, but most Catholics know that they can question authority/disagree on some issues without going to hell. 

My elementary school principal was a nun. My friend's mom tried to get Harry Potter books banned (to my horror) and the nun said calmly, to the woman's face, "You can't keep your children in a bubble." That's one of the most un-fundie statements I've ever heard. 

 

I think you are right. Most people identifying as Catholic or Protestant are like that. They will go to Church on Christmas and maybe Easter. They might believe in God or the concept of a higher power but the majority doesn’t care at all about any „rules“ the church teaches for life. I would even go so far to say that in Europe most Christians are culturally Christians. Even the more religious people I know take a very critical stance on the bible and the institution „church“. They all cherry pick what rules they follow.

Religious fundamentalism is so rare here that I think that is why I am so fascinated by the Fundies we talk about. They are like a total different species sometimes. 

Religion is such a private matter here that people almost never are in a position where they openly identify as Christians. Even though we do discuss religious concepts or organisations. Running around doing that, handing out tracts or else or asking which church someone attends would give you massive side eyes. You would definitely be the weirdo. If I meet someone my default is to think they are atheists or culturally whatever.

The Catholic Church cannot change to much on certain topics. It would undermine their theology or even go directly against some biblical writings. Thing is- it doesn’t matter. No one is forced to believe it or go to church. It’s like a club- you don’t have to be/stay a member. And if you like Christmas you can still celebrate it and even go to church. No one is checking your membership card. 

I realise that this is harder in little villages where social pressure is higher and there is more gossip („Have you noticed they haven’t mowed their lawn in six weeks?“ style). But there wouldn’t be any disadvantages in terms of finances, jobs and so on. 

That mindset is obviously fully through my personal experience. Since reading here I realised that the USA are partly similar but partly so different that I think a lot of arguments rise from this difference. 

[Someone Out There]

12 hours ago, kmachete14 said:

You can't have sex if you aren't open to life, which begins at conception, because God made sex for reproduction and for pleasure, and never the two shall be split. 

For this reason, using birth control is as bad to the Catholic Church as having gay sex. Both are scenarios where pleasure occurs, but not a chance at reproduction.

But if you want to be technical about it no birth control is 100% effective (though some are fairly close).  So technically you could use birth control and say that you are open to having children.

Something interesting I found out recently is that culturally priests in Italy are seen more as humans with human failings rather than say in Ireland where they were more authorative figures (source this podcast https://www.abc.net.au/radio/programs/conversations/conversations-moreno-giovannoni/10372196).  The guy in the podcast also makes the comment that it was generally accepted in Italy that a priests housekeeper was likely to be his mistress.  I do think it is ironic that a number of Popes have died of STD's such as Syphillus.

When looking for something more along the lines of this https://www.thedailybeast.com/orgies-incest-and-more-15-biggest-vatican-scandals which is about various historic scandals and orgies in the Vatican I did manage to come across this https://nypost.com/2017/07/05/vatican-cops-bust-drug-fueled-gay-orgy-at-cardinals-apartment/ which is a more recent scandal of orgies in the Vatican (though this one didn't involve the Pope unlike in the other article).

[viii]

8 hours ago, Lullu-Beanz said:

I'm not caught up on this thread, so I don't know if anyone linked it, but I did find a later interview with her.

https://www.thecut.com/2018/06/she-had-an-abortion-at-8-months-then-a-surprise-pregnancy.html

Thank you so much for tagging me in this. I kept thinking about this poor woman hours after I read her interview, and so I'm happy I got to receive some extra information about her life. That's wonderful that she has a daughter now. 

[Meggo]

My parents are fundie Catholic. They will go to mass - every weekend without fail. Even finding the airport chapel during a layover on one of the obligation days leading up to Easter. Even finding a church in which NO ENGLISH was spoken - just to tick that box. Church, done. 

They DO ask their priest for direction on things. Mom's involved in a lot of prayer & womens groups (but I secretly suspect it's more for the social aspect and church is - in her mind - a socially acceptable way to meet people). 
No abortion, no premarital sex, no discussion of sex (except that it's dirty), we went to confession, we did the stations before easter - every single holy day of obligation - the whole nine. 

I have "broken with the fold" as it were. I don't even identify as culturally Catholic really. I was raised Catholic, confirmed - but I never bought in fully - and turned and ran when I could. Didn't get married in a Catholic church - but to add "support" to my argument - I did consult their priest about it. (he said "nope - I won't marry you in the church if it's just for them.") My son is in a Catholic school (my mom is beyond tickled) - but he's only there because it's no cost to us (Ontario) and I can see it from my front window. I'm debating keeping him there for a host of other issues - but... 
I did have to agree that he would be taught religion (obviously) and for now that's okay - but he's 5. I'm not sure what's going to happen in a few years when they start talking about confession/reconciliation & communion. I'm NOT down with either of those for him - and he's not baptized so not sure it would be a "thing" anyway... 

[viii]

1 minute ago, Meggo said:

I did have to agree that he would be taught religion (obviously) and for now that's okay - but he's 5. I'm not sure what's going to happen in a few years when they start talking about confession/reconciliation & communion. I'm NOT down with either of those for him - and he's not baptized so not sure it would be a "thing" anyway... 

I don't think it would be an issue. I work at a Catholic school, and we have plenty of non-Catholic students. They are taught Religion, but they're not obligated to participate in the Reconciliations or anything. They're more like supportive by-standers. 

[Meggo]

Just now, viii said:

I don't think it would be an issue. I work at a Catholic school, and we have plenty of non-Catholic students. They are taught Religion, but they're not obligated to participate in the Reconciliations or anything. They're more like supportive by-standers. 

That's kind of what I'm hoping for? And I'm assuming he's not the only non-Catholic in the school - so it won't be like "there are all the Catholic kids and then there is MY kid." 

He seems to enjoy church, when he goes with school and with my parents. 

[viii]

I think it's pretty safe to say that's what happens, but for peace of mind you could always call and ask them!

[Carm_88]

4 minutes ago, Meggo said:

That's kind of what I'm hoping for?

Where my cousins went in BC, there were a lot of non-Catholics. I wouldn't imagine that he's the only one.

[singsingsing]

Hmm, I thought with Catholic schools in Ontario non-Catholics could opt out of the religion classes?

[Meggo]

1 minute ago, singsingsing said:

Hmm, I thought with Catholic schools in Ontario non-Catholics could opt out of the religion classes?

Nope - we had to sign something at the beginning of our time at school saying we understood this was a Catholic based education and as such - he'd be expected to participate. 

Now - I'm SURE they don't mean in the sacraments themselves. 

 

I(technically Catholic) also had to agree to pay my husband (non Catholic)  a dollar a year to enroll my son in Catholic school. Something about taxes and the other person who owns the home? It was kind of funny.

 

[Mama Mia]

3 minutes ago, Meggo said:

Nope - we had to sign something at the beginning of our time at school saying we understood this was a Catholic based education and as such - he'd be expected to participate. 

Now - I'm SURE they don't mean in the sacraments themselves. 

 

I(technically Catholic) also had to agree to pay my husband (non Catholic)  a dollar a year to enroll my son in Catholic school. Something about taxes and the other person who owns the home? It was kind of funny.

 

It’s always so strange to me when I hear about free religious schools, a state sanctioned church etc.....when the US is the Western country with, presumably, the most fundamentalists. It’s such a disconnect in my head. Not saying it’s a bad thing ...just...seems to not go together.

[VelociRapture]

11 hours ago, Lullu-Beanz said:

I'm not caught up on this thread, so I don't know if anyone linked it, but I did find a later interview with her.

https://www.thecut.com/2018/06/she-had-an-abortion-at-8-months-then-a-surprise-pregnancy.html

My path to parenthood wasn’t as horrible as this woman’s was (just one early loss and one premature birth), but this really hit home for me. The difference in your reaction to learning you’re pregnant following a loss, the constant anxiety, feeling guilty... thank you for sharing it. 

[Meggo]

2 minutes ago, Mama Mia said:

It’s always so strange to me when I hear about free religious schools, a state sanctioned church etc.....when the US is the Western country with, presumably, the most fundamentalists. It’s such a disconnect in my head. Not saying it’s a bad thing ...just...seems to not go together.

I totally hear ya!! I am American and it just doesn't sit right with me either. 

There is talk about merging the boards (think of how much more they could DO with shared resources!), especially since you don't HAVE to be Catholic to go to Catholic school. It's not a requirement.
I think the education is basically the same - I have heard the same struggles with the public board that I hear with the Catholic board so... (shrug)

[viii]

10 minutes ago, Meggo said:

Nope - we had to sign something at the beginning of our time at school saying we understood this was a Catholic based education and as such - he'd be expected to participate. 

Now - I'm SURE they don't mean in the sacraments themselves. 

That's how it's done here in Saskatchewan. Parents sign a form that acknowledge their children will be taught Catholic education and expected to participate in all activities like gospel assemblies, prayer, and faith based activities, but it 100% does not include the sacraments. Those are taken quite seriously, and so it's frowned upon to even try and fake your way into it. I'm non-Catholic, and so I sit back for some activities because they just wouldn't be appropriate for me to participate in. 

[katertater]

I swear this has become the topic that cried wolf.....everytime I see "hot" I think its the announcement we've all been expecting at any time..

[singsingsing]

17 minutes ago, Mama Mia said:

It’s always so strange to me when I hear about free religious schools, a state sanctioned church etc.....when the US is the Western country with, presumably, the most fundamentalists. It’s such a disconnect in my head. Not saying it’s a bad thing ...just...seems to not go together.

Honestly, it is a bad thing. It’s a ridiculously outdated system from the early days when they were trying to keep both the Protestants and the Catholics appeased, and it no longer has any use. Religious schools should not be publicly  funded, especially the schools of just one particular religion. Catholic schools in Ontario are basically the same as public schools now, and I am fairly sure that you can opt your kids out of the religious instruction if you’re not Catholic, but that’s just more reason to do away with the separate boards completely.

[BernRul]

38 minutes ago, Meggo said:

That's kind of what I'm hoping for? And I'm assuming he's not the only non-Catholic in the school - so it won't be like "there are all the Catholic kids and then there is MY kid." 

He seems to enjoy church, when he goes with school and with my parents. 

I don't know how it is in Canada, but that's what it was like for me growing up in the American East Coast. The non Catholic kids didn't have to participate. 

And he probably won't be alone. At my high school, 40% of the kids were non Catholic.

I'm planning on baptising my kids for the sake of tradition. My husband is agnostic, but we both come from Catholic families and it's one of the only things that connects us culturally. I might send my kids to a Catholic school if that's our best option when the time comes. But like you, I'm not very religious either and I won't take them to church most times. 

[PlentyOfJesusFishInTheSea]

22 minutes ago, Mama Mia said:

It’s always so strange to me when I hear about free religious schools, a state sanctioned church etc....

It's Ontario's Affirmative Action from like 120 years ago (??) and it's hard to imagine it'll ever go away. Drives me crazy, personally, but what can you do?

I used to have a Dutch roommate and she told me that ALL religious schools in Netherlands get funding (or are totally funded?). It was some kind of compromise to get women the vote back in the day. To me, that's silly but more logically consistent than only funding one religion's schools.

[viii]

We have two Catholic schools in my city, and for the most part, I think it's fine. The only thing I really disagree with is that the second Catholic school has the only French Immersion program in my city. Therefore, if you want your child in French Immersion, you have no option but to send them to a Catholic school and agree they'll participate. 

My mom's coworker is a Muslim, and wants her children in French Immersion, but obviously doesn't want to send them to a Catholic school. She asked if they could attend but be excused from religion and was denied. So now her child doesn't get to be in French Immersion. 

That doesn't seem right to me. French Immersion should be in a public school with a neutral setting so any child of any religion can participate. 

[Meggo]

8 minutes ago, singsingsing said:

Honestly, it is a bad thing. It’s a ridiculously outdated system from the early days when they were trying to keep both the Protestants and the Catholics appeased, and it no longer has any use. Religious schools should not be publicly  funded, especially the schools of just one particular religion. Catholic schools in Ontario are basically the same as public schools now, and I am fairly sure that you can opt your kids out of the religious instruction if you’re not Catholic, but that’s just more reason to do away with the separate boards completely.

Very much the same. Except for prayer. 

The school boards tend to take slightly different approaches - but I do feel the Catholic board is NOT equipped to deal with my son. (or maybe it's this school). He's got challenges - but since they don't fit in the neat little boxes that school is equipped with (autism, downs syndrome, dyslexia) - he struggles. And their solution is to put him in the hall or send him to the office. Which makes my blood boil. 
But then the public board struggles to find ways to adapt for my friends daughter who has downs. So. dammed if we do or don't. 

They'd BOTH have more money to deal with if they didn't have to have 2 of everything. 

[SapphireSlytherin]

GryffindorDisappointment went to public, Baptist, Presbyterian, Lutheran, and Catholic schools. She was expected to take the "religion" classes at each of the religious schools.

She's a confirmed atheist, even after "all that religion." lol

[Glasgowghirl]

Here in Scotland, Catholic Schools follow the same rules as non denominational schools, only difference was one extra period of RE a week and the odd mass, my high school had an oratory and pupils could attend mass before school and during lunch most days. In the 6 years I was at the school, I don't know anyone that went to those and no one was forced to go to confessions. A lot of people who were not Catholic attended it due to it being a better performing school than the two main non denominational schools near me, those schools later merged and still doesn't have a great reputation.

[viii]

3 minutes ago, Meggo said:

The school boards tend to take slightly different approaches - but I do feel the Catholic board is NOT equipped to deal with my son. (or maybe it's this school). He's got challenges - but since they don't fit in the neat little boxes that school is equipped with (autism, downs syndrome, dyslexia) - he struggles. And their solution is to put him in the hall or send him to the office. Which makes my blood boil. 
But then the public board struggles to find ways to adapt for my friends daughter who has downs. So. dammed if we do or don't. 

I would definitely say it's your school. We have a few students who have challenges, and I have noticed SUCH a difference from when I was in school! Like your child, challenged children were put in the hallway or sent to the office. Not at my school now... we have sensory rooms, and altered schedules, and one on one times with student counsellors and EA's...