Josiah and Lauren 12: Usual Duggar Social Media and Drift

[HerNameIsBuffy]

Continued from here...

 

 

[CaricatureQualities]

I just wanted to say that reading through various conversations and debates (not just this one) about the abortion issue on here has greatly influenced my opinion on the matter and given me a lot of information to think about.  I was pro-choice to begin with but reading on here has furthered my understanding and has changed my mind on certain aspects of the issue. 

Someone once posted this article/interview from Jezebel that really stuck with me and opened my eyes even further so I will share it here again:

https://jezebel.com/interview-with-a-woman-who-recently-had-an-abortion-at-1781972395

It's an interview with a woman who had a very late term abortion. It's not an easy read but it is extremely eye opening.

[lexiloumarie]

I do want to apologize for the flounce comment before.  My sass got the better of me and I shouldn't have said it. Walking away is a healthy thing and shouldn't be mocked. 

[HerNameIsBuffy]

12 minutes ago, lexiloumarie said:

I do want to apologize for the flounce comment before.  My sass got the better of me and I shouldn't have said it. Walking away is a healthy thing and shouldn't be mocked. 

Happens to the best of us. 

Or so I've heard ... it would never happen to me.  I'm always delightful.   

 

[Iamtheway]

12 hours ago, habert said:

If you say there are conditions to abortion, then you believe there are reasons you think a woman should be forced through labor and birth. I will never believe a woman should be forced to go through labor and birth, and so I believe in condition free abortions. 

I am pro-choice and think that healthcare should be free and accessible for everyone. I think medical personnel (or everyone that doesn’t work as a pastor really) should keep their religious belives away from their jobs and I agree with what everyone has said about a woman’s absolute right to her own body. 

But I still really struggle with the idea of totally unregulated abortion. In the previous thread someone mentioned a woman (in a documentary?) that was denied an abortion in week 36. Do you think she should have been able to have an abortion, even if there was no medical reason for her or the fetus? Because at 36 weeks the baby is pretty much done and can definitly survive outside of the mother. My friend had her baby in week 36. They didn’t even have to stay for an extra night at the hospital. 

One of my friends was born in week 28. My son has a friend that was born in week 26. Should you be able to abort at those weeks? And if you’re not should you be forced to continue to term? And if you’re not forced who’s responsibility is the premature baby? I think these are really hard questions. 

In Sweden we have free abortion until week 18. After that you have to apply to abort. I think it’s still relatively easy to get an abortion between week 18 and 22, but harder once the fetus could survive outside of the womans body. Abortion here is cheap and availible though so the situation is very different to the one in the US, that sounds really scary to me.  We have a right wing party here too that wants to change the free abortion to 12 weeks though. We have to be careful here so that we don’t lose the rights other women have worked hard to gain. 

[VelociRapture]

Bringing this over from the last thread:

That isn’t exactly true. Joy and Austin’s first real anti-abortion Instagram post was in October 2017, over a month after they announced Joy was pregnant. Jill didn’t mention abortion on Instagram at all until January 2015 with this post:

Jill had already been married for about seven months at that point and they had publicly announced her pregnancy in mid-August, so it definitely wasn’t combined with their announcement. The closest I could find was a quote Jill gave (around the time they announced her pregnancy) about how they chose to announce early because they feel every life is precious no matter how young - which isn’t really an anti-abortion statement. 

Jessa, on the other hand, wasn’t even married when she shared this gem back in September 2014:

Spoiler

 

 And yes, to be fair she has very much toned down the fire and brimstone since welcoming Spurgeon. That said, she will continue to not get a pass from me for as long as she fails to apologize for this hateful bullshit post. 

As for the others... Kendra doesn’t do social media, I don’t think Jinger has mentioned anything seriously controversial (though Jeremy has, though I don’t remember if any of it was abortion related), Abbie’s personal account is private (so cant be judged), the joint John/Abbie account is just photos of them being happy, and Si/Lauren didn’t make an abortion post until the movie related one in October (so just under four months after their wedding.) Anna used to post a LOT about abortion. It seemed like every other post was abortion related for a while, but that stopped very quickly after the molestations became public knowledge. 

[Maggie Mae]

1 hour ago, Iamtheway said:

But I still really struggle with the idea of totally unregulated abortion. In the previous thread someone mentioned a woman (in a documentary?) that was denied an abortion in week 36. Do you think she should have been able to have an abortion, even if there was no medical reason for her or the fetus? Because at 36 weeks the baby is pretty much done and can definitly survive outside of the mother. My friend had her baby in week 36. They didn’t even have to stay for an extra night at the hospital. 

My personal opinion would be that she should do whatever is safest for her health. If it's "abortion" than, yes, she should have the abortion. 

 

1 hour ago, Iamtheway said:

One of my friends was born in week 28. My son has a friend that was born in week 26. Should you be able to abort at those weeks? And if you’re not should you be forced to continue to term? And if you’re not forced who’s responsibility is the premature baby? I think these are really hard questions. 

They are really hard questions, no doubt. But for me, the woman who is here should have the ultimate right to make decisions about her body. Your friend and your son's friend were likely children who were wanted, in a country that offered the family medical and financial support, allowing the parents to bring children into the world and take care of them and offer them love. 

 

1 hour ago, Iamtheway said:

In Sweden we have free abortion until week 18. After that you have to apply to abort.

Do you have to apply for financial assistance or apply to be approved to be allowed to have the medical procedure. In the US, if you live in certain areas, the rules are different. No one offers free abortions though Planned Parenthood does have a sliding scale for people in need, if you live near a Planned Parenthood and manage to get inside without accidently going into one of the "Crisis Pregnancy Centers" which are generally right next door and cleverly disguised to trick women. 

1 hour ago, Iamtheway said:

Abortion here is cheap and availible though so the situation is very different to the one in the US, that sounds really scary to me.  

Our entire country is terrifying, to be honest. I don't know why anyone would want to live here if they weren't born here or fleeing from some sort of war zone or other worse situation. 

[JillyO]

5 hours ago, CaricatureQualities said:

Someone once posted this article/interview from Jezebel that really stuck with me and opened my eyes even further so I will share it here again:

https://jezebel.com/interview-with-a-woman-who-recently-had-an-abortion-at-1781972395

It's an interview with a woman who had a very late term abortion. It's not an easy read but it is extremely eye opening.

That was me (unless somebody else posted that article too). I'm so glad you found it eye-opening. So did I when I first read it. It definitely helped me figure out where I stand on late-term abortion. (Firmly pro-access, at this point.)

[AussieKrissy]

53 minutes ago, Maggie Mae said:

 

Our entire country is terrifying, to be honest. I don't know why anyone would want to live here if they weren't born here or fleeing from some sort of war zone or other worse situation. 

I was on my way to work this morning and on the radio one of the hosts was talking about the (most) recent night club massacre. He was stating how he had heard an American sum it up as "our worst one in two weeks." WTF is with that? 

In the last week I have read about a man with a good job and hard working. Hit 26 got kicked off his mother's insurance and died because he could not afford his insulin. Government assisted or working,  in my country you could afford insulin. 

That and Donald Dump Truck.......

I love the States, I love visiting, I love being there. I am always glad this is my home.

 Australia has many many flaws and just as many scandals and atrocities, I am not blind to it.

But I am forever grateful for our gun control, universal health care and even the welfare system. Though I don't need government assistance now and have not needed it for many years, had my mother and I not had it when I was young.....

I am grateful for four weeks a year holiday, mandatory maternity leave (even though there is room for improvement).

These are the main things that always pop into my mind when I read about the states. Simple things that make life easier and safer things I am grateful my country has.

Edited to add our lack of shit tonne of fundies and religious extremists and all the close mindeness they bring.

I am glad our country promotes sex ed rather than abstinence and glad women have access to safe and un pressured (aka have to jump trhough hoops to get them) abortions 

birth control is easy and cheap to get I am thankful for that too

[Rachel333]

I'm not going to say I don't feel any conflict about abortions after viability for non-medical reasons, but when you're talking about the edge of viability it just sounds like an utterly terrible idea to deliver an extremely premature baby who will require long, extensive medical treatment with the possibility of life-long medical issues, if they survive at all, and then either saddle the woman who didn't want to be pregnant in the first place with the trauma of having a baby in a critical medical situation and/or the long-term issues that can come with placing a baby for adoption.

And to me it also just comes back in the end to the importance of bodily autonomy and my discomfort with restricting that. And if those abortions should be illegal, what should the punishment be?

[HurricaneBells]

*disclaimer, I speak of this from how it currently is in Australia, I do not pretend to know how this is working in other countries.

Think of this from another perspective on how we view fetus viability. When it comes to abortion and we talk of viability, 23 weeks - 26 weeks seems to be the range most agree on and is likely the age the fetus could be supported by machines if not its mother (I believe 30 weeks and over is the line campaigners for new laws are suggesting here) Yet, kill a 37 week old fetus in a car accident for instance, and that baby doesn't exist in the eyes of the law, (is considered to be an injury of the mother if she lived) because the baby never took a breath. It cant be both and as long as the laws are not clear, we will have the same arguments and who in the world is able to even decide this?

We saw this just last month locally, a lady pregnant with 37 week twin fetuses, all 3 killed (horrible horrible accident, her 17 yo sister in law was killed too and husband went into coma, having to wake to be told he lost them all. Fucking heartbreaking stuff). Our authorities are desperately searching for a legal way to charge the (unlicensed and speeding) driver with 4 counts of manslaughter not just 2 for the women. I hope they find a way because those babies were real and already loved but then how in the world am i supposed to feel differently if a mother chooses to terminate the pregnancy so late where no reason exists? Sorry but there are women like that and that i find the hardest piece to swallow. For medical reasons, i understand. I also understand for rape victims etc. but I guess i dont see why someone in that situation would wait until they were heavily pregnant to  have the procedure performed.

Ugh, its so conflicting, even in my own mind. All I can summarise with is, i wouldn't choose abortion for myself but i also wouldn't vote to take away any other woman's right to make that decision for themselves although i may not agree with them.  I cannot imagine a lot of women choose to have late abortions because they want to or because there is no reason to. I do however strongly agree that we could be better educating our kids on safe sex, prevention is the cure!

On a separate topic, feeling broken for my friend Laura, who I just found out has lost her house and everything in it in the fire in Cali. Thankfully her husband, kids and animals are safe. I dont believe in god but she does and if you are so inclined to keep her and others affected in your prayers, I would be grateful to you.

[HurricaneBells]

7 hours ago, CaricatureQualities said:

https://jezebel.com/interview-with-a-woman-who-recently-had-an-abortion-at-1781972395

It's an interview with a woman who had a very late term abortion. It's not an easy read but it is extremely eye opening.

"Like it or not, all of our rights are intertwined. Maybe there’s some woman who has had four abortions and maybe that feels really wrong to you. But my rights are wrapped up with hers, so I have to fight like fuck for her to have as many as she wants—not just for her sake, but for mine, too."

[SorenaJ]

4 hours ago, Maggie Mae said:

My personal opinion would be that she should do whatever is safest for her health. If it's "abortion" than, yes, she should have the abortion. 

In what scenario would it be better for her health taking a dead fetus out of her than an alive fetus? The fetus can be out in one hour. It's not gonna vaporize just because she chose an abortion. It will still have to come out of her, by the same mechanism as it would if it were alive. Why would her health be better? 

[Maggie Mae]

9 minutes ago, SorenaJ said:

In what scenario would it be better for her health taking a dead fetus out of her than an alive fetus? The fetus can be out in one hour. It's gonna vaporize just because she chose an abortion. It will still have to come out of her, by the same mechanism as it would if it were alive. Why would her health be better? 

After a certain point, labor is labor, and birthing a live child can be safer than passing a stillborn, or having a c-section. Mental health is also a consideration for me. Some women have difficulty with abortion, due to religion, or personal beliefs, or just hormonal bonding.

[Kittikatz]

@SorenaJ Very late term abortions are almost always the result of a medical emergency either involving the fetus or the mother or both.

In many of these cases, it may be better for people who discover their fetus has a medical condition that makes survival outside the womb impossible, to opt for a late-term abortion. In a perfect world, issues like these would be discovered early, but this is sadly not always the case - especially for rare conditions, issues caused by abnormal fetal development, or unusual chromosomal anomalies. Added to this, some of those incompatible with life conditions mean whatever few moments/hours/days/weeks of the child's life it survives for will be an incredibly physically painful time for the infant and an emotionally devastating one for their family. Parenting a dying baby is hard. Parenting a dying baby with unmanageable pain who is being subject to multiple interventions in an effort to make it more comfortable and/or extend its life (something hospitals are deep programmed to do in many cases) is indescribably brutal. For some people, choosing to be with their babies for whatever time they have is important - and worth the emotional cost. For others, choosing to spare their child and family the suffering is the right choice.

I had a front-row seat to the unavoidable,  protracted and painful death of a very wanted infant. It was hell on earth, and it blew my family apart and left deep scars on all of us. My parents were aware there were issues prior to the birth (not sure how much information was available/given - I just remember her coming home from a scan in hysterics and my father putting me in a coat and shoes and sending me outside while she calmed down) but my mother didn't have the option of pursuing a safe medical abortion due to the laws in Canada at that time and my father's patriarchal 'leadership'. So instead, she had a traumatic emergency delivery that almost killed her and resulted in a child who had no realistic hope of long-term survival. Instead of letting him die, the baby was subject to over 20 surgeries in his 16 month life. My mother has been very vocal in the years since that the delivery room doctors should have allowed him to die in peace with some shred of dignity. She also said that if she had known how hard it would be on all of us she would have found some way to end the pregnancy and would not have sought medical attention until she knew it was too late to save the baby. Taking this kind of illegal route could well have killed my mother.

As a result of all this, I am a firm supporter of a woman's right to choose what happens inside and to her own body. There will always be people on the fringes who make choices that make this uncomfortable for the majority of the universe, but to me, a group of cells with the potential for life is never going to rank as equally or more important as someone who is actually living, breathing, thinking and feeling.

[Iamtheway]

5 hours ago, Maggie Mae said:

My personal opinion would be that she should do whatever is safest for her health. If it's "abortion" than, yes, she should have the abortion. 

 

They are really hard questions, no doubt. But for me, the woman who is here should have the ultimate right to make decisions about her body. Your friend and your son's friend were likely children who were wanted, in a country that offered the family medical and financial support, allowing the parents to bring children into the world and take care of them and offer them love. 

 

Do you have to apply for financial assistance or apply to be approved to be allowed to have the medical procedure. In the US, if you live in certain areas, the rules are different. No one offers free abortions though Planned Parenthood does have a sliding scale for people in need, if you live near a Planned Parenthood and manage to get inside without accidently going into one of the "Crisis Pregnancy Centers" which are generally right next door and cleverly disguised to trick women. 

Our entire country is terrifying, to be honest. I don't know why anyone would want to live here if they weren't born here or fleeing from some sort of war zone or other worse situation. 

But at week 36 she could give birth to the baby alive and there would be no real difference to her health. 

I am for a woman’s right to chose abortion for any reason at all but at one point in the pregnancy an abortion without medical reason becomes the choice between giving birth to the baby dead or alive. Should that choice be only the woman’s?

Since there is no way she’ll get out of the actual delivery what is the difference between killing the baby in utero at week 36 and deciding the baby you gave birth to in week 34 is damaging to your health and asking to have it killed when it’s two weeks old?

Why would it be ok to kill a perfectly healthy baby in utero 36 weeks after conception but not ok to kill a sick baby outside of the utero 36 weeks after conception?

I don’t have any answers really, not even for what my personal opinion is. I just think there are some really hard questions when it comes to late term abortion. 

Between week 18 and 22 in Sweden you have to apply to a legal council at the National Board of Health and Welfare to have an abortion. You need to have a ”special reason”. That reason can be that the woman is really young, that the pregnancy was discovered late, that the woman doesn’t have suitible living conditions or that there is something wrong with the baby. The womans’s mental health is definitly considered too.

After week 22 you can only abort the pregnancy if there is danger to the woman’s or the baby’s life. At that point they try to save both of them though.

Having an abortion costs the same as a regular visit to a doctor, it differs a little in different parts of the country but is never more then 75 dollars. For people under 20 it’s usually free. 

Keeping a baby is also easier here. You have over a year paid parental leave. After that daycare costs less then 150 dollars a month and you get a state subsidy of 110 dollars a month while your kid lives at home. Healthcare, dentalcare and school is free (or costs very little) up until age 20. There is a cooked lunch in school every day that’s free. University is free. There is social security.

There are still problems here too. There are still children here that live in poverty. There are political parties that wants to change the system and take away a lot of the social security. It scares me how many people take all these rights for granted and just think about how they can get more money themselves.

I ❤️ paying lots of tax.

[SorenaJ]

@Kittikatz would you not be pissed off if a woman, where there was no medical reason to, chose an abortion at 36 weeks? I sure would. 

My reply was to a case of a 36 week abortion with no medical reason. Obviously most late term abortions happen because of devastating circumstances. 

 

 

[Shadoewolf]

Unfortunately "almost" only counts in horseshoes and hand grenades. There ARE instances of late term abortion that have no qualifiers like the mother's or baby's health. And while I am very much for choice, nope if nobody's health is in danger then a 36 week fetus should be delivered alive and placed for adoption. 

The problem is any sort of regulation runs the slippery slope of too much. We already push the limits of viability and now that a premature lamb has survived in a fake uterus it's only going to get worse as technology progresses. So while I loathe that it does happen, I still want the choice more than anything. 

[Irishy]

5 hours ago, SorenaJ said:

In what scenario would it be better for her health taking a dead fetus out of her than an alive fetus? The fetus can be out in one hour. It's not gonna vaporize just because she chose an abortion. It will still have to come out of her, by the same mechanism as it would if it were alive. Why would her health be better? 

If this hypothetical woman was going to try and self induce or procure a backstreet abortion at 36 weeks (for whatever desperate reason..), then I’d like her to have the option of doing it safely and legally. 

[habert]

I’m a world of condition free abortion, there would be hopefully less need for women to seek abortions late. In a world of condition free abortion, a woman would be able to be given the information about what abortion would look like at her stage in pregnancy so she could make an informed decision. A woman seeking an abortion at 36 weeks in this world would be met with understanding and facts, and she’s may walk away choosing to go through labor and birth, and perhaps even choosing to induce at some point. But I do not want that choice made for her. 

I think your question is a good one, but in practice it wouldn’t be often a woman would spontaneously decided to want a late term abortion. Women who seek later abortions are usually women who couldn’t pay but always wanted one or there is a health risk or something wrong with the fetus. 

I think it’s also worth imagining what a late term abortion could look like in a world where doctors are allowed to practice and perhaps develop more ways that are safer, less traumatic, do not require laboring a stillborn, whathave you. It would also be amazing to see how all of gynecology could improve in a world where women are treated like full autonomous beings, including pregnancy, labor, and birth. There is a lot of assumed knowledge there and a lot of gaps due to misogyny. 

[JillyO]

5 hours ago, Shadoewolf said:

Unfortunately "almost" only counts in horseshoes and hand grenades. There ARE instances of late term abortion that have no qualifiers like the mother's or baby's health. And while I am very much for choice, nope if nobody's health is in danger then a 36 week fetus should be delivered alive and placed for adoption.

Really? Can you provide an example please? (A documented one, not an anecdote.)

Let's look at the facts: Late-term abortions close to term like you are talking about are extremely hard to obtain. They usually require long-distance travel. They are very costly. They require the women to take significant time off of work. They constitute a lengthy (multiple-day) medical procedure with the end result that the women still has to go through labor and give birth to the fetus. The woman will also have to live with the fact that lots and lots of people will notice that she left heavily pregnant and came back without a baby.

And you REALLY want to tell me that anyone who is not in an absolutely desperate situation would do this to themselves? Really?

I honestly think that the fact that so many compassionate, intelligent people here agonize over this question is proof how much we're all being influenced by the anti-choice movement. Because women who have stigma-free, affordable, safe access to abortion do not wait until 36 weeks to abort. NEVER.

[Crazy Enough to Join]

There's a difference between the patently absurd belief that 100% of all abortions were necessary and appropriate and the belief that government interference into such a thorny issue as pregnancy will net positive results. I believe the government shouldn't make any laws about abortions, but that medical professionals and hospitals should be allowed to counsel women how they see fit and even refuse a procedure if that is what they believe is best. The worst thing about government overreach is it breaks down the ability of women, doctors, counselors etc. to pursue the best interest of all involved.

      For those who believe an abortion never saves a life, look at some of the victims of ISIS who had an abortion to avoid being honor killed.

[samurai_sarah]

zzz

7 hours ago, JillyO said:

(snip)

And you REALLY want to tell me that anyone who is not in an absolutely desperate situation would do this to themselves? Really? (snip)

Have you never woken up on your day off while being 36 weeks pregnant, thought "hmm, what shall I do today" followed by "Oh, I know, I'll have an abortion, I'm sure it'll be fun!"

/sarcasm

I completely agree with you. Although I know of one instance, precisely one, where a woman had an "elective" abortion past the point of viability. I put elective in quotation marks, because it wasn't all that elective. It happened in a South-East Asian country, decades ago. Her engagement had fallen through, she was looking at becoming an unwed mother with no support, the social stigma was huge and with her lack of education, she couldn't see how on earth she was going to raise a child. So, not all that elective.

The slight problem was that the abortion didn't work, so she ended up with a very much alive infant, whom she left at the clinic. The baby wasn't expected to live, because of the premature birth and thirty odd years ago it was a minor miracle that a baby born 23 weeks in a developing country made it. My friend got adopted and grew up in Germany.

Friend told me the story, and was very adamant that the biological mother was not to blame for her actions. In the environment of her time, she did the best she could. She was desperate, and that's the point of the anecdote.

No one wakes up one morning and thinks "oh, I'll just abort a viable foetus for fun today". Women who have late term abortions for whatever reason are desperate. Friend's mother's circumstances aren't mine. If I suddenly became an unwed mother, I'd have resources, an education and the united support of my family behind me with no social stigma. But not everyone is that lucky!

I get to live in my happy little bubble, in which I don't have to worry about where my next meal will come from, in which I won't become a social pariah for an unplanned pregnancy, in which I am privileged enough to make donations to "the poor unfortunates" whoever those may be, all of which means that I don't get a say.

I just don't get a say. I don't get to judge another woman's choices, especially if she has a seemingly elective late-term abortion. I don't know her circumstances, so who am I to judge?

For me, being "pro-choice" means giving women a choice. It's that simple. Provide contraception, provide free healthcare and support, childcare and education, abolish social stigma AND provide safe abortions. TRUST women!

[Crazy Enough to Join]

6 hours ago, Shadoewolf said:

Unfortunately "almost" only counts in horseshoes and hand grenades. There ARE instances of late term abortion that have no qualifiers like the mother's or baby's health. And while I am very much for choice, nope if nobody's health is in danger then a 36 week fetus should be delivered alive and placed for adoption. 

The problem is any sort of regulation runs the slippery slope of too much. We already push the limits of viability and now that a premature lamb has survived in a fake uterus it's only going to get worse as technology progresses. So while I loathe that it does happen, I still want the choice more than anything. 

Just to play Devil's Advocate, adoption takes both parents permission. Let's say Sally's boyfriend Tom is a very violent domestic abuser. Tom said he would agree to the adoption, but at 34 weeks he beat up Sally and was thrown in prison for 6 weeks. He now says he won't sign the papers for adoption. Sally goes to abortion providers, but she's 36 weeks now and is not allowed to get an abortion. She gives birth and starts co-parenting with Tom. When the baby is 3 months old, Sally and the baby are found dead in their apartment, strangled. Did not having an abortion save a life?

 

ETA: Now if adoption laws were changed to allow mothers to choose adoption without the father's permission, then you have yourself a very valid point. I've known mothers who desperately desired to choose adoption over abortion, but the father refused to sign adoption papers hoping to force her into parenting.

[LilMissMetaphor]

I just had a broccoli and chicken pizza thing.  I already had toast this morning, but I was sooooo hungry.  What's everybody else eating?