Immigration Caravans and Border Issues

[Howl]

Starting a new thread because of the idiocy of this blatant political stunt of deploying thousands of active-duty troops to the southern border.  For perspective, there are about two thousand active duty troops deployed to combat ISIS in Syria. This is essentially unprecedented, is a topic worth following.  IMHO, it is a massive cluster fuck of wasted resources and manipulation of military personnel for political ends. 

Jim Mattis, as Secretary of Defense, has kept his head down and carried on, even though he has now been cut out of the Trump inner circle and rumor is that John Bolton has started a "whispering campaign" to get rid of him.  Mattis has strong support among US troops (who apparently revere him), is supported by both Republicans and Democrats in Congress and has caused zero (zero!) scandals.  Wouldn't be surprised if  über shit weasel Stephen Miller has something to do with the idea of massive troop deployment, along with Bolton promoting something that puts Mattis in a horrible position.  

Military folks and those with past ties to DoD have strong opinions about this deployment. I'll be checking MilitaryTimes.com as the whole deployment shiteroo unfolds.  If you are interested in a deeper dive into what these troops can or cannot do, this AP article linked by Military Times lays out some of the details by explaining the Posse Comitatus Act: This federal law limits what US troops deployed at the border can do  Here's a quote from that article about why there is zero reason for troops to be there in the first place: 

Quote

 

R. Gil Kerlikowske, Customs and Border Protection commissioner from 2014 to 2017, said the military cannot stop asylum seekers who show up at border crossings to seek protection, and that Border Patrol agents have had no trouble apprehending people who cross illegally.

"I see it as a political stunt and a waste of military resources and waste of tax dollars," said Kerlikowske, who was at the helm during a major surge of Central Americans migrants in 2014. "To use active-duty military and put them in that role, I think is a huge mistake. I see it as nothing more than pandering to the midterm elections by the president."

 

Military Times lays out why this could be the tip of the iceberg: The 5,239 troops headed to the border is just the beginning

Kelly Magsamen, who previously served as a senior official in the U.S. Department of Defense and on the National Security Staff of both President George W. Bush and President Obama, had this to say on DefenseOne:  Secretary Mattis, Defend This or Resign

Apparently, DHS won't pay for it, there is no budget in the Pentagon to do this, so ostensibly the Pentagon will have to cut other programs to pay for it.  The cost will ultimately be in the billions and Trump announced a few weeks ago that he may be cutting the Pentagon budget. 

 

Not sure of the leanings of this particular website (splinter.com) but it call Mattis out for not taking questions about the border deployment, where

Quote

during an event at the U.S. Institute of Peace on Tuesday, moderators reportedly prevented reporters from asking Mattis any questions about why he was going along with the President’s wild political stunt to send 5,200 or more troops to the U.S. border to try to frighten away a caravan of 4,000 or so refugees from Honduras and Central America.

 Secretary of Defense James Mattis Takes the Coward's Way Out

 

 

[fraurosena]

5200? That’s just the half of it...

 

[AnnaSofia]

 

10 hours ago, Howl said:

 

Jim Mattis, as Secretary of Defense, has kept his head down and carried on, even though he has now been cut out of the Trump inner circle and rumor is that John Bolton has started a "whispering campaign" to get rid of him.  Mattis has strong support among US troops (who apparently revere him), is supported by both Republicans and Democrats in Congress and has caused zero (zero!) scandals.  Wouldn't be surprised if  über shit weasel Stephen Miller has something to do with the idea of massive troop deployment, along with Bolton promoting something that puts Mattis in a horrible position.  

 

I don't hold Mattis in any particular reverence, but they are ratfucking him here. There's no other word for it.

[AmazonGrace]

10 hours ago, fraurosena said:

5200? That’s just the half of it...

 

So what are they going to do, bomb tourists and asylum seekers?

 

[samurai_sarah]

What purpose does that serve? If you ask me, it sounds like a grandly organised show of strength, and little more. The reality is that it's a massive waste of time, money and resources. All of which could be better spent elsewhere. From where I'm standing, it just looks like a huge publicity show that needlessly costs the taxpayers money, achieving nothing at all. A desperate person will always find a way, or die trying.

[fraurosena]

What I don't get is why it's necessary to send 5 times as many soldiers than that there are refugees in that caravan.

Last I read, the caravan consists of about 3000 people. For arguments sake, let's say that the division of people in the caravan is one third men, one third women, one third children. So it's about 2000 unarmed adults. Against 15,000 soldiers. 

Is the average American soldier so weak and feeble that they need SEVEN (and a half) SOLDIERS per unarmed adult to stop them crossing the border?

 

 

 

[fraurosena]

It was only a matter of time before the trigger-happy BT's came out of the woodworks to 'help' Border Patrol.

Militia offers to help stop caravan raise concern at border

Quote

Militia groups and far-right activists are raising money and announcing plans to head to the Mexican border to help stop the caravan of Central Americans, echoing President Donald Trump's attacks on the migrants making their way toward the U.S.

Exactly how many militia members will turn out is unclear, and as of Friday, the caravan of about 4,000 people was still some 1,000 miles (1,609 kilometers) and weeks away from reaching this country.

But the prospect of armed civilians at the border — and the escalating political rhetoric over immigration — have fueled fears of vigilantism at a time when tensions are already running high because of the mail bomb attacks against some of Trump's critics.

The U.S. Border Patrol this week warned local landowners in Texas that it expects "possible armed civilians" to come onto their property because of the caravan.

Three activists told The Associated Press that they were going to the border or organizing others, and groups on Facebook have posted dire warnings about the caravan. One said it was "imperative that we have boots on the ground." Another wrote: "WAR! SECURE THE BORDER NOW!"

The militia members said they plan to bring guns and equipment such as bulletproof vests and lend a hand to the Border Patrol to protect against people unlawfully entering the country.

"They're just laughing in our face," said Shannon McGauley, president of the Texas Minutemen. "It's a free-for-all in America."

McGauley said he already has members at three points of the state's border with Mexico and expects to add 25 to 100 more people in the coming days.

Border watch groups and militias have been patrolling the 2,000-mile (3,200-kilometer) southern boundary off and on for more than a decade. Typically, the groups watch for people illegally crossing into the U.S. When they spot crossers, they contact the Border Patrol.

Their presence has led to conflict in some cases. A militia member killed two people in 2009 during an invasion of what she thought was a drug house near the border in Arivaca, Arizona.

Residents in that same city have been posting signs in recent weeks warning that militia members are not welcome.

The migrants' northward trek has led to an election-season furor in the U.S., with Trump calling for the Army to be sent to the border and a Pentagon official saying the administration will dispatch 800 or more active-duty troops.

Border crossings, while rising this year, are still far below the numbers in previous decades. But Harel Shapira, a University of Texas professor who was embedded with an Arizona militia from 2005 to 2008, said that what's driving militia groups is the way some politicians have more recently defined immigrants as "existential threats to a particular way of life."

Monica Marin, an Oregon resident, said she has raised about $4,000 online to help militias buy supplies. She argued that members of the caravan are dangerous, echoing Trump's claim that "unknown Middle Easterners" are mixed in with the crowd. There is no evidence to support those claims. (Read an AP fact check here .)

"I see young, fighting-age men who do not look like they're starving. They look like they're ready to fight," Marin said. At the same time, she said: "We're trained. We're not hotheads. We're not out there to shoot people."

Marianna Trevino Wright, a South Texas resident who is director of the nonprofit National Butterfly Center, said she is more fearful of the militias than the caravan.

"We go about our business here every day in a peaceful manner," Wright said. "The idea that we could be invaded not by illegal immigrants but by militia groups ... is regrettable, and it will end badly."

 

[AmazonGrace]

They need to make sure they have enough psychos that are willing to shoot little children. 

[Howl]

Yes, these wingnut militia types are dangerous.  If you want to know what kind of people are attracted to militias, one need only revisit the occupation of the Malheur Wildlife Refuge.  The people attracted to the militia movement are often not the most stable types or the brightest bulbs in the box, but are desperate to do something that gives their life some kind of meaning and their actions and beliefs legitimacy, that involves camo and guns. 

 

 

[Travlr98]

I support Trump sending the military to the border. The caravans are invaders,not refugees.  They are dressed and well fed. If they were true refugees they would have excepted Mexico’s asylum offer 

[Alisamer]

13 minutes ago, Travlr98 said:

I support Trump sending the military to the border. The caravans are invaders,not refugees.  They are dressed and well fed. If they were true refugees they would have excepted Mexico’s asylum offer 

Wait is there a rule that to be a refugee you have to be naked and hungry? I thought you just had to be fleeing a place where you feel unsafe?

*accepted

I don't think they are invaders. Invaders don't walk thousands of miles, carrying young children. And what would they be invading FOR? What would be the purpose? They know full well who our president is, that children have been separated from their parents, that this many weeks-long journey has no guarantee of allowing them to start a new life in the US. But they still think it's a better option than staying where they were. I can't imagine being so afraid and desperate that I would walk for months across a continent in mere hope of finding a safe space. 

I don't think we need more military troops than there are adults in the caravan, watching the border. I don't think we need to spend billions of dollars on this, when no one with any knowledge of the actual situation supports this move. This is just theater. Just for show. Look over there, folks! Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain! 

[Howl]

This is political maneuvering days before the mid terms, as is the entire birthright "controversy."  It's raw meat to the slavering base. 

 

[fraurosena]

Sweet Rufus. 

 

Here's the presidunce equating a rock with a bullet. 

 

[Howl]

I follow Michael Hayden on twitter.  That certainly got his attention.  Under no circumstances would rock throwing be met with a lethal response by the US military, most of whom will be unarmed.  Now for the nitty gritty.   

I live in Texas.  I've crossed the Texas-Mexico border many times -- 20? 30?  I've never heard of anyone throwing rocks.  Rocks? Who the hell throws rocks? Trump:  exhausted refugees =  Palestinians throwing rocks. 

And by the way, there aren't any rocks at major crossing points.  In Texas, you're in the middle of two cities (for example, Laredo/Nuevo Laredo or El Paso/Ciudad Juárez).  McAllen/Reynosa) on a bridge over a damn river.  

[fraurosena]

This four year old is one of those being vilified by the presidunce for walking in the caravan. 

 

[Travlr98]

6 hours ago, Alisamer said:

Wait is there a rule that to be a refugee you have to be naked and hungry? I thought you just had to be fleeing a place where you feel unsafe?

*accepted

I don't think they are invaders. Invaders don't walk thousands of miles, carrying young children. And what would they be invading FOR? What would be the purpose? They know full well who our president is, that children have been separated from their parents, that this many weeks-long journey has no guarantee of allowing them to start a new life in the US. But they still think it's a better option than staying where they were. I can't imagine being so afraid and desperate that I would walk for months across a continent in mere hope of finding a safe space. 

I don't think we need more military troops than there are adults in the caravan, watching the border. I don't think we need to spend billions of dollars on this, when no one with any knowledge of the actual situation supports this move. This is just theater. Just for show. Look over there, folks! Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain! 

There is plenty of evidence that Soros is finding these so called “refugees”. It’s part of the plan of Soris, DNC, globalists, illumanitiand socialists to destroy America. They want open borders and to allow thousands of unvetted  “refugees” into this country.  That’s why they hate Trump so much. He is for America and not the NWO. 

[AmericanRose]

6 minutes ago, Travlr98 said:

There is plenty of evidence that Soros is finding these so called “refugees”. It’s part of the plan of Soris, DNC, globalists, illumanitiand socialists to destroy America. They want open borders and to allow thousands of unvetted  “refugees” into this country.  That’s why they hate Trump so much. He is for America and not the NWO. 

Mhm. What is the evidence?

[PennySycamore]

You are an asshole, @Travlr98!  Conspiracy theorists are NOT welcome here.  FUCK OFF!

[onekidanddone]

40 minutes ago, Travlr98 said:

There is plenty of evidence that Soros is finding these so called “refugees”. It’s part of the plan of Soris, DNC, globalists, illumanitiand socialists to destroy America. They want open borders and to allow thousands of unvetted  “refugees” into this country.  That’s why they hate Trump so much. He is for America and not the NWO. 

Please cite your sources. Simply saying there is evidence isn’t evidence. 

[Destiny]

46 minutes ago, Travlr98 said:

There is plenty of evidence that Soros is finding these so called “refugees”. It’s part of the plan of Soris, DNC, globalists, illumanitiand socialists to destroy America. They want open borders and to allow thousands of unvetted  “refugees” into this country.  That’s why they hate Trump so much. He is for America and not the NWO. 

Citations required for Soros.

I'm going to let the rest of that go ... for now. 

Separately, I would love to know where the hell my Soros paycheck is. I'm fairly certain I deserve one!

[fraurosena]

*sniff* Do I smell a troll?

What I’d like to know is this: if Soros is paying for these people to subvert America, why is he making them walk (some of them even barefoot) thousands of miles, with the whole world watching on? If he really wants to destroy America, why wouldn’t he secretly fly them in, so no one would be the wiser?

For that matter, why does Soros need poor people, most of them women and children, to destroy America? How would that work? How would they go about achieving that goal?

If somebody really wanted to destroy America, it would be much easier to do so from within. Bribe politicians to do your bidding, use the system to work for you by controlling the legislative and executive powers of the land to tear down the foundations of democracy, stack the courts in your favor and sow seeds of hate and division between Americans.

Wait.. isn’t that precisely what can be seen happening right now in America? By the presidunce, aided and abetted by the Repugliklan party, who are so afraid of losing power that they are doing everything they can think of to suppress voters, and pointing at imaginary foes that only they can supposedly protect you from.

But by all means, believe that 3000 barefoot poor people, mostly women and children, fleeing violence and terror are the biggest threat America has ever seen. They’re fully equipped to destroy 327,533,385 Americans, spread out over 50 states, on 3.8 million square miles of land after all. Right?

 

[MarblesMom]

11 minutes ago, fraurosena said:

*sniff* Do I smell a troll?

Well, it isn't Febreeze over here.  You are on it.

[fraurosena]

Somebody forgot to tell Pence the official storyline is that Soros is funding the refugees. 

 

[hoipolloi]

8 hours ago, Travlr98 said:

I support Trump sending the military to the border. The caravans are invaders,not refugees.  They are dressed and well fed. If they were true refugees they would have excepted Mexico’s asylum offer 

Re: bolded. Well, if you were a real American,  you'd have known better than to use "excepted" in place of "accepted."

Oh, and your assertions about the refugees are complete bullshit. 

[Alisamer]

I’m sorry but as soon as I see “Illuminati” I automatically ignore anything else you have to say. Loosen up the tinfoil hat a little. The simplest solution is usually the truth. Is it more likely that a bunch of poor people are walking to escape the well publicized violence in their country? Or that some really convoluted conspiracy theory involving a global network of super rich anti-Americans who have some nebulous plan to destroy america by... bringing in a relative handful of poor children and their parents?

And no, Trump is not for America. Trump is for trump. Trump is for lining his own pockets.