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seraaa

Josh Harris announces "I kissed dating goodbye" is to be discontinued

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samurai_sarah
6 minutes ago, EowynW said:

If we are going by created order the animals rule over us. :D

Anyone who's ever had a cat knows that. :D

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louisa05
On 10/23/2018 at 7:43 AM, SilverBeach said:

Hillsong. ITA , fundies have changed their packaging.

The cool, hip version of evangelicalism also existed in the 90s. Youth pastors came into the Christian school I taught at from 1994-2000 with earrings, shell chokers, distressed denim, flannel, skater clothes, Luke Perry 90210 haircuts, etc... Charismatic versions of evangelicalism were already doing the Hillsong sort of music long before Hillsong. The whole rock band for worship thing has been around since the early 90s. 

That crap isn't new, either. Some of the more hardcore fundamentalists are starting to move in that direction. But Harris's family and church were not hardcore fundamentalists, Duggar style, even back when he wrote the book. 

 

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SilverBeach

I hear you, I was Baptist back then. I'm not nor have I ever been evangelical. I only know about Hillsong based what I read about it now and apparently its the hottest thing going. Justin Bieber! I do think that it is harder to identify evangelicals by appearance now since frrumpers have faded, "hip" evangelicals may have been around in the past but they weren't the majority.

Edited by SilverBeach

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JermajestyDuggar
47 minutes ago, louisa05 said:

The cool, hip version of evangelicalism also existed in the 90s. Youth pastors came into the Christian school I taught at from 1994-2000 with earrings, shell chokers, distressed denim, flannel, skater clothes, Luke Perry 90210 haircuts, etc... Charismatic versions of evangelicalism were already doing the Hillsong sort of music long before Hillsong. The whole rock band for worship thing has been around since the early 90s. 

That crap isn't new, either. Some of the more hardcore fundamentalists are starting to move in that direction. But Harris's family and church were not hardcore fundamentalists, Duggar style, even back when he wrote the book. 

 

I don’t think it’s brand new. I just think it’s becoming more the norm for a lot of fundies. Like I said earlier in the thread, I think fundies have realized that being different and in a self made bubble has a lot of flaws. So making themselves seem cool, normal, and social will help with those issues. 

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louisa05
3 minutes ago, SilverBeach said:

I hear you, I was Baptist back then. I'm not nor have I ever been evangelical. I only know about Hillsong based what I read about it now and apparently its the hottest thing going. Justin Bieber! I do think that it is harder to identify evangelicals by appearance now since frrumpers have faded, "hip" evangelicals may have been around in the past but they weren't the majority.

Evangelicalism and fundamentalism is not 100% the same thing. Some evangelicals are fundamentalists but not all.  The Christian school I taught at was evangelical and charismatic but not fundamentalist. There was no dress code when my friend attended it in the late 80s. Kids could wear jeans 3 days a week when I worked there--boys and girls. They did chapel music with kids playing drums and guitars. The hipster stuff was there for decades beginning with the Jesus People in the 70s. CCM has been around since then and sold well among Evangelicals from its beginning. Not the minority and not new. 

 

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SilverBeach
17 minutes ago, louisa05 said:

Evangelicalism and fundamentalism is not 100% the same thing. Some evangelicals are fundamentalists but not all.  The Christian school I taught at was evangelical and charismatic but not fundamentalist. There was no dress code when my friend attended it in the late 80s. Kids could wear jeans 3 days a week when I worked there--boys and girls. They did chapel music with kids playing drums and guitars. The hipster stuff was there for decades beginning with the Jesus People in the 70s. CCM has been around since then and sold well among Evangelicals from its beginning. Not the minority and not new. 

 

OK, whatever, not important enough to argue with you about. I do think there are areas of overlap between evangelicals and fundies, but that is another discussion for another day. When you want to talk about the black church, let me know, I spent fifty years in it. It's getting late and I'm getting tired, so have a nice evening.

Oh, and I just used Hillsong as an example of stealth evangelicalism or whatever you want to call it, I never said it was new. Geesh.

Edited by SilverBeach

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Tired
CyborgKin
19 hours ago, JermajestyDuggar said:

Here’s my question:

Now that this book has been thrown in the trash by some fundies, what book will they use to replace it? Fundies seem to need a guidebook besides the Bible when it comes to dating. They will likely latch onto another book. I wonder which it will be.

Why would girls need to buy a new book to teach them how to relate to guys in a healthy, sane, and biblical way?  It's not that complicated!

Heh, Amazon tells me that people who bought that Botkin Sisters book also bought "TRENDY UNITED Women's Rayon Spandex High Waist Shirring Flared Pocket Skirt".

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JermajestyDuggar
4 hours ago, CyborgKin said:

Why would girls need to buy a new book to teach them how to relate to guys in a healthy, sane, and biblical way?  It's not that complicated!

Heh, Amazon tells me that people who bought that Botkin Sisters book also bought "TRENDY UNITED Women's Rayon Spandex High Waist Shirring Flared Pocket Skirt".

Thank you for reminding me of another book written by fundie old maids. Sorry but fundies want a book by girls who had young and successful courtships and marriages. 

Oh brother I just had a thought. What if Kelly and the married Bates daughters wrote a book? They have quite a knack for marrying off their daughters to godly young men before they hit 25.

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Tired
CyborgKin
17 minutes ago, JermajestyDuggar said:

Thank you for reminding me of another book written by fundie old maids. Sorry but fundies want a book by girls who had young and successful courtships and marriages. 

Oh brother I just had a thought. What if Kelly and the married Bates daughters wrote a book? They have quite a knack for marrying off their daughters to godly young men before they hit 25.

The other night I heard my father speaking positively to one of his friends about these fathers who have extreme screening processes for potential suitors for their daughters, and my only thought was "Yeah that's why their daughters are all still single."

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Pecansforeveryone

Fundies demonization of divorce kind of reminds of their demonization of abortion. Yes, they are both sad and hopefully if at all possible don't happen. However, as fundies themselves say we live in a "fallen" world. Sometimes they are very necessary. Black and white rigidity keeps you from looking at contributing factors of divorce and abortion. Examining causes gives you an opportunity to you know actually reduce these events in the future. 

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treehugger

I actually think evangelicals are becoming more fundamentalist. Not all... but definitely more than a few. Also, for anyone who is interested in fundamentalism in jeans, may I recommend the book When we were on fire by Addie Zierman. Even mainstream Christianity in the USA has layers of fundamentalist thinking. Again, speaking in generalitie, there is always the exceptions. 

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EowynW
9 hours ago, treehugger said:

I actually think evangelicals are becoming more fundamentalist. Not all... but definitely more than a few. Also, for anyone who is interested in fundamentalism in jeans, may I recommend the book When we were on fire by Addie Zierman. Even mainstream Christianity in the USA has layers of fundamentalist thinking. Again, speaking in generalitie, there is always the exceptions. 

I was just coming here to say that! 

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Pecansforeveryone

It's part of the reason why it's not easy to tell who's fundie. Other reason is fundies can very individualistic on what issues they are fundie about. They can be "normal" on one issue and "batshit" on another. I worked with a nurse who believed one of her psych patients who believed he was a werewolf had become possessed after his father let him watch horror movies. She hated Harry Potter and anything to do with the occult. On the other hand she sent her daughters to public school, always worked outside the home because she couldn't handle being at home with little ones don't ya know, and bought her husband a dozen bottles of wine for Christmas. I will hasten to add she was an excellent nurse who believed in the value of psych meds. She just also believed batshit stuff about the "occult." 

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formergothardite
10 hours ago, Pecansforeveryone said:

Other reason is fundies can very individualistic on what issues they are fundie about. They can be "normal" on one issue and "batshit" on another.

This. There is this woman that I went to church with during my teen years. Her family was always "too worldly" for us to really hang out with but she sent me a friend request several years back and wow did she turn into an evangelical fundi! She works outside the home in the medical field and only has one child but goes to this fairly extreme church. She is literal six day creation, rabidly anti-gay, is anti-alcohol, anti-choice, pro-the idea that America is an evangelical nation, and a very rabid Bates and Duggar fan. 

Yes her daughter wears bikinis and she goes to work but she is not that different than many of the fundies we discuss. 

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unholypoledancer
On 10/23/2018 at 1:52 PM, hoipolloi said:

Crystal herself was extremely self-righteous about it all. She even appeared as a poster girl for the patriarchy in some British documentary in the mid-2000s. I remember her kvelling about it on her defunct blog, Biblical Womanhood, as a wonderful way to bring light to the heathen.

 

I appreciate this insight. I follow Money Saving Mom, but I follow it for deals/time management tips. I've always been aware she came off as fundie-lite, but I never realized how much she was actually devoted to that old lifestyle. 

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Pecansforeveryone

Joshua Harris also made big claims about courtship that were quickly shown not to be true. He claimed or at least strongly implied that courtship lead to a divorce-proof marriage. Reviewers on Amazon noted that two of the couples he held up as "proof" of courtship success were now divorced. Joshua did not adopt a more flexible, open-minded tone in his books. He simply scrubbed their stories from future editions. People have expressing their concerns for 5-10 years now. Josh just didn't want to hear them. I don't hate the guy. I really don't. He just suffers from much of the same hubris that many fundiegelical leaders suffer from. 

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Waffle Time
Lisafer

I just want to say that people who were hurt by Josh Harris' teachings have every right to still be angry about it and to still regard him with suspicion. An apology doesn't make it all better, doesn't make it go away, doesn't erase what happened. 

The apology seems halfway decent on the surface, but whether it's sincere remains to be seen. And even if it is sincere, that doesn't mean everybody is going to forgive him or gush over him. 

I actually never read IKDG, so I wasn't personally hurt by that particular book. The teachings were around before Josh Harris, as pointed out by other posters. My parents were very into the "courtship" model and thought that all their many children would have "pure", dating-free, parent-chaperoned courtships. Haha. 

I'm very glad the stupid courtship thing is dying out. I hope Josh Harris is sincere in his apology. But for the people that were hurt by him, that pain doesn't magically go away.

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hoipolloi
16 hours ago, unholypoledancer said:

I appreciate this insight. I follow Money Saving Mom, but I follow it for deals/time management tips. I've always been aware she came off as fundie-lite, but I never realized how much she was actually devoted to that old lifestyle. 

You're welcome. 

If you don't mind going down rabbit holes want more info, check out this older FJ thread from some years ago. It looks like the Wayback Machine links to Biblical Womanhood still work. That should give you an idea of what she was like.

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EowynW
9 hours ago, hoipolloi said:

You're welcome. 

If you don't mind going down rabbit holes want more info, check out this older FJ thread from some years ago. It looks like the Wayback Machine links to Biblical Womanhood still work. That should give you an idea of what she was like.

LOL just finished reading that thread. my parents taught me I couldn't work for a man aside my husband too. Because "your husband is your boss and you can't have two bosses." 

Makes me sick to think about now. 

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JermajestyDuggar
3 hours ago, EowynW said:

LOL just finished reading that thread. my parents taught me I couldn't work for a man aside my husband too. Because "your husband is your boss and you can't have two bosses." 

Makes me sick to think about now. 

I would’ve said, “I thought god was my boss.” But I’m a smart ass. I can remember asking so many religious questions growing up and there were very few answers that satisfied me. 

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Meh
acheronbeach

I've been lurking on Josh Harris's public facebook and there are some other small things that make me think he really is becoming less fundie.  This might've been discussed, but two things I noticed:

- He retweeted his brother's scathing and continued criticism of Donald Trump's policy on asylum seekers and their children being separated - and a very moving comparison to their grandmother being imprisoned in an internment centre in WWII.  

- His daughter is going to a secular university in BC (Capilano), when Canada's most famous and probably largest evangelical university (the much-derided Trinity Western) is right nearby.  

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seraaa
1 hour ago, acheronbeach said:

I've been lurking on Josh Harris's public facebook and there are some other small things that make me think he really is becoming less fundie.  This might've been discussed, but two things I noticed:

- He retweeted his brother's scathing and continued criticism of Donald Trump's policy on asylum seekers and their children being separated - and a very moving comparison to their grandmother being imprisoned in an internment centre in WWII.  

- His daughter is going to a secular university in BC (Capilano), when Canada's most famous and probably largest evangelical university (the much-derided Trinity Western) is right nearby.  

I also get the impression that whatever else is going on, they are not in the MAGA bubble

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Terrie
On 10/27/2018 at 8:32 PM, Pecansforeveryone said:

Other reason is fundies can very individualistic on what issues they are fundie about.

My fundie cult aunt and uncle's church allows drinking and dancing, but you can't sing Amazing Grace, because it's not theologically accurate, 

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formergothardite
5 minutes ago, Terrie said:

you can't sing Amazing Grace, because it's not theologically accurate, 

I have never heard of this! Not doubting it at all, but I never heard that it wasn't theologically accurate. 

If Josh starts standing up against Trump and speaking up for minorities then the fundies will turn against him. It is a good sign that he is really thinking about things if he is willing to condemn Trump's actions. 

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Terrie
8 minutes ago, formergothardite said:

I have never heard of this! Not doubting it at all, but I never heard that it wasn't theologically accurate. 

I've only ever heard it from them. I think it's "not accurate to their little cult church."

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