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seraaa

Josh Harris announces "I kissed dating goodbye" is to be discontinued

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Pecansforeveryone

"Worldly" fundamentalism has been going strong for the last 15-20 years. Plenty of fundies out there never wore frumpers and were fine with married couples using birth control. We didn't have the same recognition of them because obviously they blended in better. Duck Dynasty is a great example. The only one who really got snarled on was Phil Robertson. Make no mistake, the whole lot of them are thoroughly fundie. They are just less sheltered than the Duggars and most of them aren't as blunt as Phil about their awful beliefs. They appeared in "persecution porn" God's Not Dead 1 and 2. Willie Robertson is a huge Trump supporter. 

Edited by Pecansforeveryone
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luv2laugh

Evangelical fundies are all the rage now. People think it’s hip and cool to “be a light in the world” and “throw people way off” by dressing exactly like the liberal heathens but being completely opposite on the inside. I think it makes them think they have a bigger impact for Christ and gives them a sense of importance to think they are spreading the Gospel by trying to live near the “heathens”.

I know people who went to Bob Jones and think they are really cool by bucking the trends their KJV only parents set.

Josh Harris has obviously heard from these people who were raised with this book by their Baptist KJV only parents and realized that it’s a dying trend. Going the chameleon route is hip and much more profitable now. The advent of Facebook and Instagram helped to spearhead this new trend as they realized they can still cling to evil beliefs yet receive WAY MORE “likes” by people they consider heathens. Don’t be fooled: try to go Jen Hatmaker route on preaching love for ALL people and these same former frumper raised kids of the KJV only will throw you out to the curb. We cannot be fooled by their hip hairstyles and clothes. Painting on lipstick won’t change who you are on the inside.

Edited by luv2laugh

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Howl

I'm glad he's come clean and will take the book out of publication.  However, I'd really like to know what he thinks about patriarchy and complementarians.

He should be done with seminary by now; it surely will have affected his outlook and (one hopes) given him a broader perspective. I want to know about the things that have and have not changed in his thinking, his life, his marriage.  The best news would be that he understands that his thinking and beliefs will evolve over time, so FFS STOP, just STOP telling people how to organize their lives.  As I've noted often before, these types of preachy preachy preachy people go through changes, upheavals and more changes that they never anticipated, shed that skin and then don't discuss the process of how they ended up at a new place in their lives. 

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Pecansforeveryone

A lot of mega church pastor's are fundiesh or have slightly fundie leanings. Half of them are wearing torn skinny jeans, leather jackets, and Hawaiian shirts. Bonus points for tat sleeve on the forearm. They have names like Remnant and I kid you not The Cool Church and K2 the church. 1st Baptist is passe. (No offence to 1st Baptist.) They would never ever preach a sermon about "Devils" music which every good fundie preacher of the 60s and 70s  railed against rock and roll. 

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luv2laugh

No. They would not dare. Why do you think Gothard’s board refuses to let him come back? Not only because of his scandal laden past but because people like Gil Bates knows that ranting about how CCM is the devil’s music doesn’t help their bottom line. Even Golden daughter rule-following Jill, hipster Jinger, popular mommy blogger Jessa and Alyssa Bates would be against THAT. Even pants-wearing Quiverfull Sierra has gone back to listening to secular rock like Coldplay (or The Killers or something).These people know that Vision Forum is gone and that ATI is dying a slow death despite their desperate attempts to rebrand. What have the Gothard fans cared more about than Gothard himself? Money. Money talks.

The powerful Christians that head up the popular conferences all the time are what they’re attempting to rebrand to. Oh, except Jen Hatmaker. They threw her out of the club for simply saying Jesus loves gay people and would support them for marrying whoever, whether it be a man or a woman, they love. Sexist Christian men still love to poke fun at her today.

Edited by luv2laugh

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Howl

Glad to see Jen Hatmaker referenced on this thread.  For those not familiar, here is the profile about her posted on the Politico web site in December 2017: 

This Evangelical Leader Denounced Trump. Then the Death Threats Started.   Jen Hatmaker is one of the most popular religious figures in America—and she is paying a steep price for speaking out for what she believes.

Edited by Howl

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Anonymousguest
On 10/23/2018 at 5:07 AM, acheronbeach said:

On another note, is he still in Vancouver?  I am dying to know what he thinks of what is possibly Canada's most liberal, hippie city.  

He grew up in Portland OR and has lived the last 25yrs outside DC. Vancouver probably doesn't seem especially liberal. 

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Tired
CyborgKin

This came up in conversation yesterday (wasn't me who brought it up) and was met with responses of "you can't blame Joshua Harris for people misapplying his book" and "he had some good teaching but people have a tendency to look for easy solutions so of course they had problems, that's not his fault that they just stopped dating without replacing it with anything and ended up staying single" and "IKDG needed to be written because of the culture at the time" and "When you write something you mostly hear from the people criticising it, that's why he's retracting it, and now he'll be getting feedback from all the people who disagree with this move, so it'll be more interesting to see what he says in another twenty years" and "okay the Bible technically doesn't say you mustn't kiss before marriage, not explicitly in those words, but the principle is there..."

I tried to argue that an author of this kind off book needs to consider the results of people following (or misfollowing) their advice and that JH is at least partially responsible for people being hurt by "misapplying" his book, but I didn't get far :(

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JermajestyDuggar
2 hours ago, CyborgKin said:

This came up in conversation yesterday (wasn't me who brought it up) and was met with responses of "you can't blame Joshua Harris for people misapplying his book" and "he had some good teaching but people have a tendency to look for easy solutions so of course they had problems, that's not his fault that they just stopped dating without replacing it with anything and ended up staying single" and "IKDG needed to be written because of the culture at the time" and "When you write something you mostly hear from the people criticising it, that's why he's retracting it, and now he'll be getting feedback from all the people who disagree with this move, so it'll be more interesting to see what he says in another twenty years" and "okay the Bible technically doesn't say you mustn't kiss before marriage, not explicitly in those words, but the principle is there..."

I tried to argue that an author of this kind off book needs to consider the results of people following (or misfollowing) their advice and that JH is at least partially responsible for people being hurt by "misapplying" his book, but I didn't get far :(

I probably would’ve rolled my eyes and walked away. You have much more patience than me.

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EowynW

Lori Alexander says Josh was wrong and he just gave in to a few negative reviews, LMAO. 

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Meh
refugee
On 10/23/2018 at 11:41 AM, JermajestyDuggar said:

Wow her parents were even more strict than a lot of the fundies we talk about! That’s insane. No wonder they broke the rules. I’m sorry but if you put in place an insane amount of rules for your teenager, it’s impossible for them to obey every single one. The more ridiculous and unnecessary rules you place on your teen, the more you will be disappointed in them. Way to set them up for failure! And she still apologizes for breaking a few rules? Ugh.

Worse, I still know of families who are practicing this. It was incredibly triggering to read that Instagram post. It sounded just like the bragging at a wedding in recent times, put on by a family I’ve stopped having contact with. I can’t even.

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JermajestyDuggar
1 hour ago, refugee said:

Worse, I still know of families who are practicing this. It was incredibly triggering to read that Instagram post. It sounded just like the bragging at a wedding in recent times, put on by a family I’ve stopped having contact with. I can’t even.

I guess I’m glad Crystal’s parents lightened up with her younger siblings. I imagine that will happen with the Duggars and it’s already happening with the Bates kids. But it really sucks for the oldest kids. I really feel the most sorry for the oldest kids of these huge fundie families. Think about how many oldest kids have had a rift with their parents or just completely left fundieland altogether. I think it’s hard on the oldest kids for a lot of reasons and it’s why so many leave or have a major split with their family.

Edited by JermajestyDuggar

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Anonymousguest

I was in Josh's father's church for over a decade and several people in my circle have posted his apology. I haven't seen a single negative response. Not even a g"well it worked for me..." 

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Meh
acheronbeach
On 10/24/2018 at 8:50 AM, Anonymousguest said:

He grew up in Portland OR and has lived the last 25yrs outside DC. Vancouver probably doesn't seem especially liberal. 

I'm probably projecting.  I grew up in Toronto and Vancouver was a culture shock to me.  It's a very strange place - politically and economically so dysfunctional.  

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JermajestyDuggar

Here’s my question:

Now that this book has been thrown in the trash by some fundies, what book will they use to replace it? Fundies seem to need a guidebook besides the Bible when it comes to dating. They will likely latch onto another book. I wonder which it will be.

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EowynW
13 hours ago, refugee said:

Worse, I still know of families who are practicing this. It was incredibly triggering to read that Instagram post. It sounded just like the bragging at a wedding in recent times, put on by a family I’ve stopped having contact with. I can’t even.

I HATE the wedding bragging. Hate hate hatteeeeee it. So I don't talk about it but part of my extended family (aunt, uncle, a ton of cousins, etc) are in a fundamentalist cult. A bunch of families live in mobile homes on the property, they have their own school on the property (ACE school) and their own church, etc. Anyways, at many of the weddings I've been to there they are so braggy about "saving themselves, being pure and the first kiss everrrrr" that it's honestly uncomfortable. 

Sadly our wedding was way more fundie than we wanted, but atleast I was able to shut down any plans of bragging about our purity and first kiss and all that jazz. We were kissing and making out long before engagement so it wouldn't have been true anyway. :D 

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Meh
formergothardite
1 hour ago, JermajestyDuggar said:

They will likely latch onto another book. I wonder which it will be.

The next one Josh Harris writes? :laughing-jumpingpurple:

I watched the trailer for the movie and while it does have people talking about how the book harmed him, it mostly seems to focus on how he feels about people telling him that his book messed people up. The focus is Josh and his feelings about people telling him these things and not the entire system of patriarchy that surrounded him, caused massive amounts of harm and elevated this sheltered 21 year old into thinking he was an expert on marriage. 

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erunerune

I will definitely watch the movie, because fundie navel-gazing media events are not to be missed. Harris only knows how to be attention-seeking, and this is likely a result of his upbringing (his DAD zomg). 

I'm more curious about what his wife thinks of their journey through all of this, given she comes from a different background and has almost no online presence relative to Josh's. 

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Meh
formergothardite
8 minutes ago, erunerune said:

I'm more curious about what his wife thinks of their journey through all of this, given she comes from a different background and has almost no online presence relative to Josh's

That is true, in all this he has not mentioned how this entire thing has impacted her. His second book is about her! 

ETA: It could be she wants privacy from all this but selling the I Kissed Dating brand wasn't just Josh Harris, it was also his wife. She participated in spreading these harmful teachings. 

Edited by formergothardite

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Pecansforeveryone

Josh Harris wife was not a virgin when they met. That should only be her business. I am sure the purity culture did s number on her and that she and Joshua Harris passed that harm on. Of course Joshua Harris won't address that or the cruel homophobia in fundie churches. 

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formergothardite
1 hour ago, Pecansforeveryone said:

Of course Joshua Harris won't address that or the cruel homophobia in fundie churches. 

The dangers of his teachings on patriarchy and homophobia is not something he is touching in his boasts about how he is strong enough to admit he is wrong. Boy meets girl had a whole chapter on how men need to be men so that women will go back to being ladies, and by ladies he meant meek women who followed a man's lead. 

Josh is still pandering to his fundie audience. Frumpers and courtship are out of style while being edgy with tattoos and mainstream outfits are in. If he actually started addressing how his teachings sprang from patriarchy and that that causes so much harm he would be dropped by the new brand of fundies. They are willing to welcome him with open arms and praise his strength as long as he just says his courtship teachings were wrong, if he starts moving past that they will turn on him and he knows it. 

From his Boy Meets Girl book.

Quote

He made Adam first, signifying his unique role as leader and initiator. He created Eve from Adam and brought her to Adam to be his helper in the tasks God had assigned him. She was made to complement, nourish, and help her husband. God's greatest gift to man was "a helper suitable for him" (Genesis 2:18). This doesn't minimize a woman's role, but it does define it

 

Quote

Until you're a woman's husband, she is under no obligation to submit to your leadership. If she has a Christian father, that protection and oversight should come from him

Quote

Look for ways to encourage your sisters in godly femininity. When they make room for you to practice leadership, thank them. When they're humble and gentle, encourage them. Femininity is not weakness. It requires great strength of character for a woman to be gentle in an age that screams for her to do otherwise. When you see a woman going against the grain of culture by cultivating a skill that will serve her family someday, compliment her

Some of his advice for women.

Quote

So if you're in a courtship, make room for him to lead. Step back and let him be the one to take charge. How else will he learn to lead? How else can you practice for the time when you will follow a husband?

Quote

The Bible encourages younger women to learn homeaking skills from older women. Learning to keep a home and love a husband and children is part of God's plan for the complete training of young women (see Titus 2:3). Don't hesitate to learn the practical skills that will one day allow you to serve a family. Search out godly mothers in your local church from whom you can learn.

While they were courting Josh made Shannon get rid of clothing he didn't approve of. 

Quote

 A few times that meant getting rid of outfits that she didn't think would cause a problem (Ladies, you'll never know just how differently we're wired until you get married!). Once when I told her that a particular pair of shorts were a little too short

There are many major issues with his books that he doesn't appear to be apologizing for or admitting are wrong. 

Edited by formergothardite
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CTRLZero
Quote

He made Adam first, signifying his unique role as leader and initiator.

So...if God made Adam first, and God's name happened to be Steve, for a while it was just Adam and Steve.  (Sorry, couldn't resist.)   :banana-angel:

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Bad Wolf

I wonder if the Duggars, Rods, etc. Will acknowledge any of this. Will they keep to the courting idea while still saying their kids have a choice? I don't think they'll change.

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JermajestyDuggar
1 hour ago, Bad Wolf said:

I wonder if the Duggars, Rods, etc. Will acknowledge any of this. Will they keep to the courting idea while still saying their kids have a choice? I don't think they'll change.

I think they will stick with the whole courtship thing but just never mention Josh Harris’ book again. 

It’s funny because the Duggars liked IKDG and Sarah Mally’s book. And here Sarah and her two siblings are all very single and older. What books will they be giving the younger girls now? 

Edited by JermajestyDuggar

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EowynW
7 hours ago, CTRLZero said:

So...if God made Adam first, and God's name happened to be Steve, for a while it was just Adam and Steve.  (Sorry, couldn't resist.)   :banana-angel:

If we are going by created order the animals rule over us. :D

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