Josh Harris Announced "I Kissed Dating Goodbye" Was Discontinued

[formergothardite]

11 hours ago, hoipolloi said:

It served them for decades, providing a beautiful music, until a new young pastor, believing that no one wanted to hear pipe organs these days, had it dismantled to make way for a stage for the "praise band."

That is heartbreaking. Maybe he should think that some people don't like the church rock bands. 

I could never get into the contemporary services. If I ever went back to church I would probably go to an Episcopalian one because they not only don't hate the gays, the local one uses an organ and sings classic hymns. There is just something so odd to me to see pastors jump onto stages with flashing lights, wearing ripped jeans, t-shirts and bopping around like it is a rock concert. Lots of people apparently like that sort of thing, but it always turned me off. 

[apple1]

14 hours ago, MamaJunebug said:

I laugh - but I cry. 

There are so many hymns that comfort, inspire, teach and encourage. Not to mention those that praise and provide framework for one’s Thoughts in dedicating one’s Life to goodness. 

I wasn’t raised on praise songs, so I don’t know - do they help carry a person thru life’s ups & downs?  When one Jr.JB was critically ill, I clung to my old hymnal for prayers when prayers wouldn’t come. 

The Junior recovered miraculously, srsly.

i feel badly for folks coming up thru praise church today, as far as music. 

@MamaJunebug I could have also written this exact same post. I would add that I was a church accompanist for approximately 40 years (in a few different churches). I know those old hymns - also some of the better more modern music - so very well. And they also comfort me. Even when , as you say, prayers won't come. I know I am the older generation. I don't expect younger people to feel the same. But I also feel badly for them.

[treehugger]

I'm a millennial, I'm also Anglican and attend a Cathedral  with a gorgeous old organ (played by a brilliant organist), a full-blown choir, and all the old beautiful liturgy that has survived thousands of years.  There is something so real about the old hymns and prayers.  The new praise and worship, rock-concert style services just feel so fake.  It just feels like the same old tiresome trope of being sold something,  I don't go to church to be entertained with bad music and obnoxiously happy preachers.  I also know I'm not alone in feeling like this.  RHE wrote this article a while ago, and I tend to agree with it:  https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/jesus-doesnt-tweet/2015/04/30/fb07ef1a-ed01-11e4-8666-a1d756d0218e_story.html

[formergothardite]

9 minutes ago, treehugger said:

obnoxiously happy preachers.

That is such an apt description for some of these pastors! 

[quiversR4hunting]

13 hours ago, hoipolloi said:

So do I. One of the saddest stories I've heard came from an old friend of my parents. 

A lifelong member of her Lutheran church in my hometown, she was on the committee in the 1960s that raised funds for a beautiful, German- or Swiss-made pipe organ which was installed & played, with great pride, for many years.

It served them for decades, providing a beautiful music, until a new young pastor, believing that no one wanted to hear pipe organs these days, had it dismantled to make way for a stage for the "praise band."

Seriously. WTAF.

WTH? We have an organ, teen praise band, middle aged band, a choir, handbells, and cantors. Not all at the same service, they rotate with the exception of the teen band and handbells, the teen band only play at Sunday night for the mass geared towards teens and handbells are only used at very special things, usually around Christmas and sometimes Easter. Some services only use the grand piano as music, some uses the piano and organ, some use other musical interments with the piano, etc. That dip shit of a pastor was short sighted, you can have an organ and a praise band. Let's be honest, an organ is much more fitting for solemn events (Lent, funerals, etc) than a praise band. 

[JermajestyDuggar]

My great grandma played the organ at church.   She kept an organ in her home as well. Any sort of organ music will always remind me of her. So even though I’m not religious, i enjoy the organ music in church. 

[Caroline]

Fake, fake, fake is the vibe I've always gotten from Evangelicals.  The ones I've met are so obsessed with saving everyone that they come across as very insincere.  They don't really want to listen and learn, but they want you to listen and accept what they're selling.   It makes sense that their church services would be that way too.

I'm pretty introverted in social situations, and I would hate all that dramatic praise and worship stuff.  I don't even like music when it's too loud in other public places like restaurants.   Maybe most Evangelicals are extroverts?  It can't stand drama - especially religious drama.

3 hours ago, formergothardite said:

That is heartbreaking. Maybe he should think that some people don't like the church rock bands. 

I could never get into the contemporary services. If I ever went back to church I would probably go to an Episcopalian one because they not only don't hate the gays, the local one uses an organ and sings classic hymns. There is just something so odd to me to see pastors jump onto stages with flashing lights, wearing ripped jeans, t-shirts and bopping around like it is a rock concert. Lots of people apparently like that sort of thing, but it always turned me off. 

I grew up Catholic but have given it up for many reasons.  I"ve always said the same thing.  If I ever felt the need to go back to church I'd go to an Episcopal church.  Same traditions, more acceptance.

[Cleopatra7]

My theory is that the evangelical mega church church is a deracinated amalgamation of three quintessentially American institutions, the black church, the mall, and the movie theater. It seems like mega churches try to emulate the upbeat nature of gospel music, but ultimately fails because praise music lacks the “soul” that give gospel depth. Mega churches resemble malls in that they combine relentless consumerism and provide seemingly secular offerings, like pools, gyms, financial planning services, and the like. Many mega churches have abandoned the traditional church layout that dates from late antiquity in favor of a design that more resembles a movie theater where audiences expect to see a spectacle of some sort.

[MamaJunebug]

@Cleopatra7 wrote,

“It seems like mega churches try to emulate the upbeat nature of gospel music, but ultimately fails because praise music lacks the “soul” that give gospel depth.“

That’s IT!  I’ve tried to figure out the genesis (pun intended) for years. There was something more than just the natural progression of the guitars-led “folk mass” or “polka mass” or any such permutation. 

The ELCA pastor who jettisoned the pipe organ - literally - gave me heartburn memories of the pastor who  was called to our small-town Lutheran Church a couple years before we moved. The interior of the building was white with curclicued woodwork and pews stained a dark wood tone. Arched stained glass windows and in the arched nave, a matching white, baroque-ish altar with a painted statue of Jesus.

All good, right? Not for the new pastor. He said the church needed modernizing, so out came the altar and Jesus, and in went the most monstrous, blonde-wood, mid-century modern altar you could imagine (I just figured out my visceral hatred for mid century modern, guys! I never liked it but that altar was the cherry on top)!

Jesus was relegated to a secondary foyer in the school building. I felt sorry for Him, even though I knew it was just a statue. 

Just occurred to me — I need to visit the old home town and the church. Hopefully some time in the last 60 years they got their senses back and reinstalled the original furnishings. 

They really were so beautiful. One card company featured the Christmas stained glass window (the appearance of the angels to the shepherds) on a Christmas card some years ago. 

A good outcome of this discussion? I’ve heard of a nearby church with real music (IMHO) and a pastor who doesn’t harp on repro rights, gay rights nor female submission - and Im  going to give it a   try. So, thanks, all, for the conversation! 

Edited August 7, 2019 by MamaJunebug

[Marmion]

3 hours ago, Cleopatra7 said:

My theory is that the evangelical mega church church is a deracinated amalgamation of three quintessentially American institutions, the black church, the mall, and the movie theater. It seems like mega churches try to emulate the upbeat nature of gospel music, but ultimately fails because praise music lacks the “soul” that give gospel depth. Mega churches resemble malls in that they combine relentless consumerism and provide seemingly secular offerings, like pools, gyms, financial planning services, and the like. Many mega churches have abandoned the traditional church layout that dates from late antiquity in favor of a design that more resembles a movie theater where audiences expect to see a spectacle of some sort.

On the topic this thread has somehow turned into , I have noticed how a number of churches , especially it would seem Pentecostal , have taken up residence in actual malls . Cases in point , here are a few I know of personally  https://www.cranberrychurch.org , https://rustcity.church .  But speaking of Lutherans , here are some satire videos I found , which were created by Missouri Synod Lutherans , on the subject .  

 

 Lastly , I wanted to point out how similar I find this Hare Krishna Bhajan  to be to much of modern praise and worship choruses .   

 

[formergothardite]

4 hours ago, Cleopatra7 said:

My theory is that the evangelical mega church church is a deracinated amalgamation of three quintessentially American institutions, the black church, the mall, and the movie theater. It seems like mega churches try to emulate the upbeat nature of gospel music, but ultimately fails because praise music lacks the “soul” that give gospel depth. Mega churches resemble malls in that they combine relentless consumerism and provide seemingly secular offerings, like pools, gyms, financial planning services, and the like. Many mega churches have abandoned the traditional church layout that dates from late antiquity in favor of a design that more resembles a movie theater where audiences expect to see a spectacle of some sort.

Very interesting point. Several years ago I was having a discussion at a party with a couple who were "planting" a church in my area. We have empty churches all over the place here. So I asked if they were going to buy one of the closed churches to use. They laughed and said no, they were going to rent an old shopping center because a church building didn't have the "look" they were going for.

One of the oddest things I heard was when a church was when a church got a young pastor who brought in all new church leaders and they completely got rid of Sunday School. They said that people had to participate in small groups that took place at people's houses one evening a week. Some of the older people said they didn't like that since driving at night was hard for them. The church leaders flat out refused to allow any excuse for having a Sunday morning class. All classes had to be small group and if you had kids you had to help pay for someone to watch the children during the small groups. I found that ridiculous. 

[MamaJunebug]

@Marmion - I can’t  thank you enough bough! I’d forgotten about Lutheran Satire. And “Krishna (x infinity) Hey” will be my go-to for house-tidying music. 

Can’t get Soap Opera to open but I will.  

@formergothardite, From what they've published on Wartburg Watch and Spiritual Sounding Board, sounds like a Young Restless Reformed move at that church. They use “small groups” as a way to spy on congregants. Know who’s on-board with programs, who’s potential troublemaker.

Obliterating Sunday School. So stupid.  A Jewish elder I know was heartbroken when his synagogue leaders ceased weekly Torah instruction. He and some friends gather at homes to discuss Torah but  it’s not the same as having a person who’s actually trained to be a Rabbi, y’know, actually TEACH.

 Things are weird (sad) all over, is what I’m saying. 

Edited August 7, 2019 by MamaJunebug

[Cleopatra7]

15 minutes ago, Marmion said:

On the topic this thread has somehow turned into , I have noticed how a number of churches , especially it would seem Pentecostal , have taken up residence in actual malls.

I think the church in a mall is the logical end of those of the Protestant reformers who preferred plain, whitewashed churches as a sign of their complete rejection of Catholic sacramentalism (this included a very diverse group, such as Calvinists, Anabaptists, Quakers, and low church Anglicans). Since Pentecostalists believe in the continuing fruits of the spirit, it would stand to reason that no physical place or object is inherently sacred or more so than any other place, as is the case with Catholic sacramentalism. The church is holy because of the congregation that has (hopefully) been sanctified by the fruits of the Holy Spirit, not due to anything special about the place itself. 

[Antipatriarch]

4 hours ago, Cleopatra7 said:

My theory is that the evangelical mega church church is a deracinated amalgamation of three quintessentially American institutions, the black church, the mall, and the movie theater.

And these days, another important source: The rock concert, complete with costumes, professional sound and lighting rigs, and fog/smoke machines FFS...

[Dreadcrumbs]

1 minute ago, Cleopatra7 said:

I think the church in a mall is the logical end of those of the Protestant reformers who preferred plain, whitewashed churches as a sign of their complete rejection of Catholic sacramentalism (this included a very diverse group, such as Calvinists, Anabaptists, Quakers, and low church Anglicans). Since Pentecostalists believe in the continuing fruits of the spirit, it would stand to reason that no physical place or object is inherently sacred or more so than any other place, as is the case with Catholic sacramentalism. The church is holy because of the congregation that has (hopefully) been sanctified by the fruits of the Holy Spirit, not due to anything special about the place itself.  

The thing that I find so tragic about this is that I've had no meaningful spiritual experiences in places of worship devoid of music and beauty. I know this is all individual and subjective, but I think we as humans incorporate sensory experiences in our religious practices because they have powerful effects.

[formergothardite]

7 minutes ago, MamaJunebug said:

rom what they've published on Wartburg Watch and Spiritual Sounding Board, sounds like a Young Restless Reformed move at that church. They use “small groups” as a way to spy on congregants. Know who’s on-board with programs, who’s potential troublemaker.

Spying on members in their homes sounds like a big reason to cancel Sunday School and go small group. Small groups are Sunday School, but at a more inconvenient time. People are already there on Sunday morning, they have children's classes so no worry about childcare it is stupid to change that. The small group sounds like a huge hassle. The people I know who do small groups always act like it makes their lives so much harder, especially when they have kids in school and they have to navigate supper and homework before rushing to their small group and then rushing back home for baths and bed. Just have Sunday School. 

Apparently if there is a church of FJ we will need organs and beautiful buildings! The members here have high standards! I do find it interesting that people who are turned off by modern rock concert style church end up at FJ. 

[Marmion]

1 hour ago, formergothardite said:

Very interesting point. Several years ago I was having a discussion at a party with a couple who were "planting" a church in my area. We have empty churches all over the place here. So I asked if they were going to buy one of the closed churches to use. They laughed and said no, they were going to rent an old shopping center because a church building didn't have the "look" they were going for.

One of the oddest things I heard was when a church was when a church got a young pastor who brought in all new church leaders and they completely got rid of Sunday School. They said that people had to participate in small groups that took place at people's houses one evening a week. Some of the older people said they didn't like that since driving at night was hard for them. The church leaders flat out refused to allow any excuse for having a Sunday morning class. All classes had to be small group and if you had kids you had to help pay for someone to watch the children during the small groups. I found that ridiculous. 

At the risk of sounding overdramatic , this church might very well be a cult . This is what purportedly Bible based high control groups tend to do , in order to " shepherd  "people .  https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2007/8/10/369739/-   For some examples , https://xacult.wordpress.com/category/small-groups/  , and someone closer to home , given that I was mostly from a Nazarene background , the Church of the Nazarene in recent years has gotten into the practice of small group fellowship , such as with this congregation , Ramoth Nazarene Church , and this woman was traumatized by the experience  , and has made videos such as this recounting what all happened to her .   

So I would flee , if I were in a church that broke down the congregation into small groups .  And I am thankful that I got out of the Church of the Nazarene when I did .  

Edited August 7, 2019 by Marmion

[Cleopatra7]

13 minutes ago, formergothardite said:

Apparently if there is a church of FJ we will need organs and beautiful buildings! The members here have high standards! I do find it interesting that people who are turned off by modern rock concert style church end up at FJ. 

I think Hank Hill said it best when he said that Christian rock does make Christianity better, it makes rock and roll worse. But who knows, maybe 300 years in the future, the Hillsong corpus might be seen as on par with the sacred works of Bach. It’s quite possible for a church to reflect a more minimalist aesthetic and still be beautiful; I’ve been to quite a few, from Quaker meeting houses to modernist Catholic Churches. But a lot of the more extreme conservative Protestants seem to be completely lacking in any kind of aesthetic at all.

And then on the other side, you have traditionalist Catholics who are obsessed with “traditional architecture,” which usually translates into the styles that were popular during the Catholic building boom of the early twentieth century, which are neo-Gothic revivalism or Baroque, often combined with Victorian ostentatiousness and sentimentalism. This is how you get the obsession with “manly lace” for priests and altar servers in this crowd. Despite their different aesthetic sensibilities, I have noticed that both Protestant fundamentalists and Catholic traditionalists seem unable to distinguish kitsch from fine art. A lot of this has to do with a belief that art should be “wholesome,” which translates to mean that nothing can be too exciting or interesting, because then it might not be “wholesome.”

[WineGlass]

Count me as one who does NOT like modern worship music! I can’t remember the name of the song, but the line “My lover’s kiss is sweet as wine” referring to Jesus (!?!) is just so inappropriate. These songs do have the I’m-in-lurve-with-Jesus vibe. Gross. I realise it probably comes from the Song of Solomon but that poetry is actually about sexual love!

The last church I attended felt the need to take a beautiful, traditional hymn like “How great thou art” and translate it into modern English. Just no!

I’m no longer at all religious but I still love the old hymns and will happily sing them to myself. But sex-with-the-lawd songs are just a complete turn off. For everyone, I should think!

[formergothardite]

4 minutes ago, WineGlass said:

“My lover’s kiss is sweet as wine” referring to Jesus (!?!) is just so inappropriate.

There is one praise song that has a line about "your fragrance is intoxicating when we go to our secret place". 

45 minutes ago, Marmion said:

At the risk of sounding overdramatic , this church might very well be a cult .

This was actually a Southern Baptist church but I've heard several people who go the the SB churches that pretend to be non denominational talk about growth groups. It seems to be a fairly recent trend. I don't remember hearing about it when I went to church. 

[WineGlass]

Christian purity sexual frustration?

[Dreadcrumbs]

1 minute ago, formergothardite said:

There is one praise song that has a line about "your fragrance is intoxicating when we go to our secret place". 

I guess you don't need a chaperone if it's Jesus. ?

[formergothardite]

6 minutes ago, Dreadcrumbs said:

I guess you don't need a chaperone if it's Jesus. ?

I had the lyrics a little bit wrong but I found the praise song. The whole thing seems cringy. "Spread wide in the arms of Christ."

Spoiler

 

 

Edited August 7, 2019 by formergothardite

[WineGlass]

Good grief. I sure wouldn’t want my kids singing that shite. How is this reconciled with modesty, purity, etc?

 

i think the songwriters are having a joke and laughing at the gullibility of the faithful. Surely. 

Edited August 7, 2019 by WineGlass

[Dreadcrumbs]

9 minutes ago, formergothardite said:

I had the lyrics a little bit wrong but I found the praise song. The whole thing seems cringy. "Spread wide in the arms of Christ."

Spread what wide?