Josh Harris Announced "I Kissed Dating Goodbye" Was Discontinued

[DarkAnts]

9 hours ago, Palimpsest said:

So am I, and you have very good reasons to be skeptical.  I'm sitting on the fence trying to be fair, and give credit where it is due, but there is a lot lacking so far.

What worries me (and we are seeing it already) is that we are going to see many people devolve into yelling at each other over who is the better Christian over this.  I can forgive Josh better than you.  How dare you not forgive Josh Harris.  How can you still doubt Josh Harris.  And so on.  

In fact, Josh Harris can examine his navel all he likes, repent all he likes, apologise all he likes, ask for forgiveness all he likes, but no-one is obliged to forgive him.  That is between him and the God in whom he apparently no longer believes.

And I would argue that wordy claims of repentance aren't worth much without attempts at restitution.  

 

You can forgive Josh and still hold him accountable for his actions. I hate the notion that forgiveness equals a clean slate. It doesn't. Forgiveness is also not for the person who hurt others. It's for the person who was hurt. It's there to help the hurt person get closure. 

[smittykins]

Someone compared it to a child accidentally breaking a neighbor’s window with a baseball: the neighbor may forgive you, but you still have to pay for the window.

[Curious]

I'm still behind, but is Gregg Harris from HDLSA or whatever it is called?  The homeschooling legal aid place?

I keep thinking the name is familiar for something other than being Josh's father.

[Flyinthesoup]

50 minutes ago, Curious said:

I'm still behind, but is Gregg Harris from HDLSA or whatever it is called?  The homeschooling legal aid place?

I keep thinking the name is familiar for something other than being Josh's father.

I do not believe he has ever been part of HSLDA, other than maybe a member, but he was tight with them.  He's one of the 'originals' to go around conducting conferences and selling curriculum and writing a popular planner.  It appears HSLDA named an award after him that they would hand out, yearly.  I'm unsure if they still hand out that award.

[MamaJunebug]

2 hours ago, Curious said:

I'm still behind, but is Gregg Harris from HDLSA or whatever it is called?  The homeschooling legal aid place?

I keep thinking the name is familiar for something other than being Josh's father.

He’s notorious for having interfered in a woman’s crumbling marriage to wrest her business from her. A search for him and  Cheryl Lindsey Seelhoff will result in hours of reading that will make you alternately “ew” and gasp in unbelief. 

I’ve given the rescue ferrets your information. Fare well!!!

[Antipatriarch]

New Instagram post from Josh:

Quote

Two seemingly contradictory things are important for me right now:

First, to refuse to disappear. To live my life. Hold my head up. Look my Christian friends in the eyes and smile when I pass them on the sidewalk. Even the seemingly insignificant act of posting a picture on Instagram is important for me. To say I’m here, I’m alive, I’m not ashamed.

Second, to sit in quietness and be silent. The inner journey that I’m on isn’t something that I need to broadcast. Which is why I’m not engaging in public arguments online. It’s why I’m not doing any interviews with the media. It’s why I’m not writing a book or starting a podcast. I want connection and relationships and dialogue with real people. But I need to avoid audiences and the pressure of becoming a spokesperson for anyone or any cause. That has gotten me into trouble in the past.

This is really good, the second thing in particular. So many people have been accusing him of continuing to make it all about him, staying in the spotlight, using his celebrity to promote his new business, etc.

I haven't read him that way. I see him trying to balance the fact that he is prominent and needs to say something, with the fact that "the inner journey that I’m on isn’t something that I need to broadcast." I think listening and dialoguing privately will do him a lot of good.

None of that excuses IKDG and SGM/CLC and the harm he bears responsibility for. But I hope that introspection will someday lead him to a much fuller realization of that harm, and much more detailed and real apologies for it.

[JermajestyDuggar]

3 minutes ago, Antipatriarch said:

New Instagram post from Josh:

This is really good, the second thing in particular. So many people have been accusing him of continuing to make it all about him, staying in the spotlight, using his celebrity to promote his new business, etc.

I haven't read him that way. I see him trying to balance the fact that he is prominent and needs to say something, with the fact that "the inner journey that I’m on isn’t something that I need to broadcast." I think listening and dialoguing privately will do him a lot of good.

None of that excuses IKDG and SGM/CLC and the harm he bears responsibility for. But I hope that introspection will someday lead him to a much fuller realization of that harm, and much more detailed and real apologies for it.

I really hope he has those dialogues with people IRL. Online debates and interviews won’t get him far. He will grow and understand much more if he just talks with people. 

[elsiedindin]

"Refusing to disappear" -- what a great excuse to continue to indulge one's narcissism. Dear Josh, if you're on such a glorious healing inner journey, kindly shut up about it. Playing the former fundy card doesn't work if you profited from it. Disappearing is absolutely the best thing you could do at this point; the ideology you espoused destroyed lives, and you will have to live with that. Try to do it quietly, because the people you hurt have heard enough of your thoughts and opinions.

[MamaJunebug]

2 minutes ago, elsiedindin said:

 

"Refusing to disappear" -- what a great excuse to continue to indulge one's narcissism.

 

He said that? Hmpf. Like Gregg trying to portray Teddy Roosevelt while selling overpriced terrariums.

Josh may be more of a chip off the ole block(head) than we first thought.

[Palimpsest]

Well, Joshua Harris is between a rock and a hard place at the moment.  He can't please everyone.  And I even find this a bit irritating.

If he hasn't been reading here where I gave him some "do" and "don't" recommendations a few days ago, then he has certainly been reading elsewhere.    Many quite sympathetic people are telling him to slow down, take his time, and not rush into public statements in the way he did with the documentary.   And very reasonable people are skeptical of his motives and suspecting that he's about to market his tell all.  Possibly he listened to Libby Anne.

Quote

Two seemingly contradictory things are important for me right now: 

Not seemingly.  They are contradictory.

Quote

First, to refuse to disappear. To live my life. Hold my head up. Look my Christian friends in the eyes and smile when I pass them on the sidewalk. Even the seemingly insignificant act of posting a picture on Instagram is important for me. To say I’m here, I’m alive, I’m not ashamed. 

Well there is nothing to be ashamed of for questioning your faith, losing your faith, or whatever it is Josh is doing.  He can hold his head up high over that.  But you can be alive without having social media.  Make your Instagram family and close friends only, Joshie, if you can't go cold turkey on it.  Your public posts on instagram are significant at the moment because you are a public figure with a fair amount of notoriety,  Deal with it.

Quote

Second, to sit in quietness and be silent. The inner journey that I’m on isn’t something that I need to broadcast. Which is why I’m not engaging in public arguments online. It’s why I’m not doing any interviews with the media. It’s why I’m not writing a book or starting a podcast. I want connection and relationships and dialogue with real people. But I need to avoid audiences and the pressure of becoming a spokesperson for anyone or any cause. That has gotten me into trouble in the past.

And this is what Josh should be doing.  He has finally heard that message. 

But the whole thing is still too I, me, my.  It comes over as conceited and prideful as he details all the things he could be doing as a spokesperson for anyone or any cause.  Because of course he is being "pressured" to be a spokesperson by nebulous others and causes.  He's so good at it.

Again, Josh Harris, shut up.  Hold your head up in real life.  Contact people in real life,  Talk to people in real life,  Put your real life together and focus on yourself and your children.  Avoid audiences.

At some point in the future, when you are ready, you can talk about your journey publicly.  If you really want to address and be accountable for the serious problems at SGM.  But even then you are only fit to be a "spokesperson" for yourself.  In my opinion.

Edited August 2, 2019 by Palimpsest

[danvillebelle]

39 minutes ago, Palimpsest said:

But you can be alive without having social media. 

Honestly, I think there are a lot of folks out there for whom Instagram is a full-blown addiction that they indeed CANNOT live without.  It's literally a dopamine hit that their brain craves every few minutes.  Braggie leaps to mind.  It's like they truly feel they would disappear (cease to exist) if they weren't broadcasting their lives for the world to consume.

[Palimpsest]

21 minutes ago, danvillebelle said:

Honestly, I think there are a lot of folks out there for whom Instagram is a full-blown addiction that they believe they CANNOT live without.  

FTFY.  It is actually a growing problem and much discussed in mental health circles.  It is thought to be more habitual than addictive behavior for most people though.  It can lead to real problems.  But both addictions and self destructive habits can be overcome.

Here's one article: https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/in-excess/201805/addicted-social-media

I think Josh Harris is also addicted to attention.  Bottom line:  He didn't need to make that public Instagram statement about what he was not going to do.  He could have just faded away or posted boring impersonal pictures on Instagram until everyone lost interest.  

And my reaction above could probably have been summed up as:  FFS, shut up and stop whining, Josh Harris!  

Edited August 2, 2019 by Palimpsest

[hasunah]

17 hours ago, elsiedindin said:

"Refusing to disappear" -- what a great excuse to continue to indulge one's narcissism. Dear Josh, if you're on such a glorious healing inner journey, kindly shut up about it. Playing the former fundy card doesn't work if you profited from it. Disappearing is absolutely the best thing you could do at this point; the ideology you espoused destroyed lives, and you will have to live with that. Try to do it quietly, because the people you hurt have heard enough of your thoughts and opinions.

I find this line of thinking rather strange to be honest . He wrote a book , one of many about this topic , not the first and certainly not the last . He didn't invent anything really  new  and without an already existing audience of fundie parents and churches  this book would have ended up in a $1 clearance bin . I get being hurt by one's upbringing but assigning blame to one person for everything that is wrong with evangelical culture seems misguided to me . 

[elsiedindin]

5 hours ago, hasunah said:

I find this line of thinking rather strange to be honest . He wrote a book , one of many about this topic , not the first and certainly not the last . He didn't invent anything really  new  and without an already existing audience of fundie parents and churches  this book would have ended up in a $1 clearance bin . I get being hurt by one's upbringing but assigning blame to one person for everything that is wrong with evangelical culture seems misguided to me . 

I don't think I did assign him blame for everything wrong with evangelical culture. No, his ideas were not original, but he brought those fringe ideas into mainstream Christianity in the US. I'm not excusing anyone; Bill Gothard and Doug Phillips and all the rest of the cult leaders bear responsibility for what they have done, whether or not they acknowledge it. But I think it's reasonable to suggest that Josh Harris should not be in public life. If he is really committed to reducing harm for those he has hurt (both through IKDG and SGM) he should consider that perhaps they have heard enough from him. 

[apple1]

15 hours ago, hasunah said:

I find this line of thinking rather strange to be honest . He wrote a book , one of many about this topic , not the first and certainly not the last . He didn't invent anything really  new  and without an already existing audience of fundie parents and churches  this book would have ended up in a $1 clearance bin . I get being hurt by one's upbringing but assigning blame to one person for everything that is wrong with evangelical culture seems misguided to me . 

Ummm, no. You have missed the point(s) of this thread. I don't think posters here were blaming "one person for everything that is wrong with evangelical culture". And you clearly didn't read my previous post. The book had not only an audience, but was absolutely and definitely pushed a LOT further than an "existing audience of fundie parents and churches". It was pushed to young people outside and AGAINST their parents' wishes - and not only through "fundie churches" - but also through loosely-associated "Christian" groups for young people. As I stated in my previous post - this is one of my problems with the way this is being handled.

[Marmion]

22 hours ago, hasunah said:

I find this line of thinking rather strange to be honest . He wrote a book , one of many about this topic , not the first and certainly not the last . He didn't invent anything really  new  and without an already existing audience of fundie parents and churches  this book would have ended up in a $1 clearance bin . I get being hurt by one's upbringing but assigning blame to one person for everything that is wrong with evangelical culture seems misguided to me . 

As I myself had pointed out earlier in this thread , churches , such as those I grew up in , tended to discourage personal interaction between the opposite sexes . So I do agree that such restrictive stipulations were not altogether something new . However , before Josh Harris had written his book , courtship , rather than romantic dating , was primarily an Islamic practice . https://www.learnreligions.com/courtship-and-dating-in-islam-2004430 , https://www.npr.org/sections/codeswitch/2017/04/20/502461218/how-young-muslims-define-halal-dating-for-themselves  . So it was Joshua Harris who by and large introduced it to a wider  evangelical Christian audience .  Though it may surprise some , the Harris's have had knowledge of their Muslim fundamentalist counterparts , and have taken inspiration from them .  For example , I remember reading in " The Christian Homeschool "  , which my mother has , where Gregg Harris Harris approvingly recounts the history of Muslims in Texas , whom pulled their children out of public school , because they did not approve of the values being conveyed , as they felt that it ran counter to their religious faith . 

 

Edited August 3, 2019 by Marmion

[DarkAnts]

I am now getting adds for Roosevelt's Terrariums. I keep telling the add thing no. I can go to my local nursery here in Salem and get the same service for 1/4 of the cost.

 

Added benefits are I don't have to listen to revised history, or deal with Portland traffic.

[kpmom]

23 hours ago, apple1 said:

The book had not only an audience, but was absolutely and definitely pushed a LOT further than an "existing audience of fundie parents and churches". It was pushed to young people outside and AGAINST their parents' wishes - and not only through "fundie churches" - but also through loosely-associated "Christian" groups for young people.

That is true.

I remember years ago, before I really knew much about fundies, I heard about the book on either The Today Show or Good Morning America.  They interviewed Josh.

I remember thinking how could you meet the person you wanted to marry, assuming that was your goal, without dating?  I had never heard of courtship.  This was long before the Duggars.

So yes,  that book hit the mainstream big time.

Edited August 4, 2019 by kpmom
screwed up punctuation

[formergothardite]

On 8/2/2019 at 9:09 PM, hasunah said:

I find this line of thinking rather strange to be honest . He wrote a book , one of many about this topic , not the first and certainly not the last . He didn't invent anything really  new  and without an already existing audience of fundie parents and churches  this book would have ended up in a $1 clearance bin . I get being hurt by one's upbringing but assigning blame to one person for everything that is wrong with evangelical culture seems misguided to me . 

No, he didn't invent these ideas, but he helped make them mainstream. He took courtship from this weird thing that extreme fundamentalists like Gothard did to something that was excepted and promoted in mainstream churches.

[Hane]

I knew that this “courtship” crap had gone mainstream when I saw a special about the McCaughey septuplets becoming teenagers. The interviewer asked their parents how they’d handle dating, and their father said something like, “Well, not exactly dating—we’re thinking of something like courtship, where we get to know their friends as a family.” At the time (the kids were born in 1997), it smacked of “something mom and dad heard about at church and felt obligated to say on TV to show how Christian (TM) we all are.”

[refugee]

11 hours ago, DarkAnts said:

I am now getting adds for Roosevelt's Terrariums. I keep telling the add thing no. I can go to my local nursery here in Salem and get the same service for 1/4 of the cost.

 

Added benefits are I don't have to listen to revised history, or deal with Portland traffic.

Oh fun! I mean, I’m hoping that every ad you get costs the elder Harris $$$.

(or does he only have to pay when someone clicks on an ad? Bummer.)

Edited August 4, 2019 by refugee
Another thought

[MamaJunebug]

20 hours ago, Marmion said:

As I myself had pointed out earlier in this thread , churches , such as those I grew up in , tended to discourage personal interaction between the opposite sexes . So I do agree that such restrictive stipulations were not altogether something new . However , before Josh Harris had written his book , courtship , rather than romantic dating , was primarily an Islamic practice . https://www.learnreligions.com/courtship-and-dating-in-islam-2004430 , https://www.npr.org/sections/codeswitch/2017/04/20/502461218/how-young-muslims-define-halal-dating-for-themselves  . So it was Joshua Harris who by and large introduced it to a wider  evangelical Christian audience .  Though it may surprise some , the Harris's have had knowledge of their Muslim fundamentalist counterparts , and have taken inspiration from them .  For example , I remember reading in " The Christian Homeschool "  , which my mother has , where Gregg Harris Harris approvingly recounts the history of Muslims in Texas , whom pulled their children out of public school , because they did not approve of the values being conveyed , as they felt that it ran counter to their religious faith . 

 

In ninth grade (1970), Civics teacher explained the extremes of communism and fascism not as being on opposite ends of a straight line, but on a line that curved almost into a circle, something like a horseshoe, bringing the two extremes near each other. 

His point was that while the two isms Used different methods and rhetorics, they had the same results: tyranny, imbalance of power, loss of freedom, subjugation, etc.

The horseshoe-shaped line works, IMO, for extremist religions.  Extremists on one side use the words of their god and god’s prophet, on the other side, the words of their god and god-man. The results are horribly similar. 

Thus the news that extremists of two world religions use coercive courtship doesn’t surprise. 

I fully understand that courtship adherents will say there’s no coercion in it. You do you, courtship adherents. Room in this world for multiple opinions. 

[Dreadcrumbs]

On 8/2/2019 at 6:51 AM, Palimpsest said:

Well, Joshua Harris is between a rock and a hard place at the moment.  He can't please everyone.  And I even find this a bit irritating.

If he hasn't been reading here where I gave him some "do" and "don't" recommendations a few days ago, then he has certainly been reading elsewhere.    Many quite sympathetic people are telling him to slow down, take his time, and not rush into public statements in the way he did with the documentary.   And very reasonable people are skeptical of his motives and suspecting that he's about to market his tell all.  Possibly he listened to Libby Anne.

 

This is what I expect to happen. He's going to more or less start asking the very people he has harmed to give him $$$ because he's changed and if you have a problem with that, you're the problem.

I really do believe he's just rebranding and I'm not even one of the people his book affected. I just know this happens. And people will fall for it and defend him.

Edited August 4, 2019 by Dreadcrumbs

[louisa05]

21 hours ago, Marmion said:

As I myself had pointed out earlier in this thread , churches , such as those I grew up in , tended to discourage personal interaction between the opposite sexes . So I do agree that such restrictive stipulations were not altogether something new . However , before Josh Harris had written his book , courtship , rather than romantic dating , was primarily an Islamic practice . https://www.learnreligions.com/courtship-and-dating-in-islam-2004430 , https://www.npr.org/sections/codeswitch/2017/04/20/502461218/how-young-muslims-define-halal-dating-for-themselves  . So it was Joshua Harris who by and large introduced it to a wider  evangelical Christian audience .  Though it may surprise some , the Harris's have had knowledge of their Muslim fundamentalist counterparts , and have taken inspiration from them .  For example , I remember reading in " The Christian Homeschool "  , which my mother has , where Gregg Harris Harris approvingly recounts the history of Muslims in Texas , whom pulled their children out of public school , because they did not approve of the values being conveyed , as they felt that it ran counter to their religious faith . 

 

I knew mainstream Christian couples, albeit evangelicals--but not Gothardites, etc..., who courted and had their first kiss at the altar as early as 1992. The whole idea was talked about quite a lot among FCA kids during my last two years of college (1991-1993). (Fellowship of Christian Athletes which at the time tended to attract all of the more evangelical kids and even committed mainline Protestant kids on small college campuses in my area as there were no other organizations). A friend of mine's parents pushed her to court rather than date when she was 16 in 1990 and tried to make it work with a 26 year old man. They attended a charismatic megachurch. 

It wasn't popular but it was seeping into the consciousness that early. IKDG was published in early 1997. It exploded after that. But he didn't originate it as an alternative to dating in evangelical culture by any means. He latched on to an as yet under the radar idea and created a virtual handbook that appealed to teens and young adults and, more importantly, their worried parents and not always wise youth pastors. 

[dripcurl]

1 minute ago, louisa05 said:

A friend of mine's parents pushed her to court rather than date when she was 16 in 1990 and tried to make it work with a 26 year old man. They attended a charismatic megachurch. 

I grew up in a charismatic denomination and was very involved in it’s local culture, and my husband grew up in a notorious charismatic megachurch in the area. (In fact, it was a gal at my church that first gave me IKDG.) Anyway, he and I both have noticed in these type of fundie-light circles that matches in general are encouraged, and age differences seem to be a non issue, as well as role differences: It is not uncommon to see a Youth Leader (not necessarily a Pastor) start going out or flirting with a teen and then making it more “official” once that teen is graduated.