Josh Harris Announced "I Kissed Dating Goodbye" Was Discontinued

[Nolongeroppressed8.4]

On 10/22/2018 at 10:00 PM, louisa05 said:

I just have to say that it seems like there is nothing he can do to make some people happy now. Whatever he does, the goalposts move. 

First it was "Josh Harris needs to apologize". He did. So it became, "Josh Harris needs to say he was wrong all along". He did. Then it became, "Josh Harris needs to discontinue publication of the book". Now he is. And it's still not enough. 

He can't undo it all. It's not possible. But name me another evangelical leader who has ever come out and said, "that shit I made a pile of money preaching to the whole world? That was bullshit". There isn't one. 

And in my circles IKDG was too liberal to be read so it didn’t affect much of the fundie world I knew - just those who were allowed to have and attend youth group. We weren’t. lol

[Antipatriarch]

9 hours ago, dripcurl said:

in my garage I had IKDG  among some other fundie books. Needless to say I tossed them right into the Goodwill box.

Honestly, why not the garbage can? IKDG is dangerously wrong.

Thanks for the account of SHTC (hadn't heard of that one before):

9 hours ago, dripcurl said:

at the end of the book he had eight ideas for date nights with the cording couple. At least two of them pretty much required that the couple would have no immediate supervision of people who would hold them accountable:  I remember for sure that babysitting kids together was one

Ha! Yeah, maybe I'm too jaded, but if I was the parent, I'd suspect they were looking for a place for some "private time" after the kids were asleep.

[Giraffe]

4 hours ago, Antipatriarch said:

Thanks for the account of SHTC (hadn't heard of that one before):

Ha! Yeah, maybe I'm too jaded, but if I was the parent, I'd suspect they were looking for a place for some "private time" after the kids were asleep.

Many years ago I was part of a church who wouldn’t allow couples to babysit together for that very reason. ?

[refugee]

On 7/23/2019 at 8:03 AM, Antipatriarch said:

Honestly, why not the garbage can? IKDG is dangerously wrong.

Thanks for the account of SHTC (hadn't heard of that one before):

Ha! Yeah, maybe I'm too jaded, but if I was the parent, I'd suspect they were looking for a place for some "private time" after the kids were asleep.

That was my reaction. But I get it; it resonates with some of my experience.

Early in the process of separating from cultic  “faith”, we brought a few boxes of books to church and put a “free to good home” sign on them.

A bit later, we threw some of the remaining books we found while going through storage in a Goodwill box.

Still later, with more perspective, when moving (and finding more books—it’s like they were breeding in secret like vermin; not really, we just wasted a lot of $$$ trying to get it right), we dumped them in the recycling bin with other miscellaneous papers to go to be pulped.

In cleaning out boxes of homeschooling books that moved with us, we found more—including IKDG, the Botkins’ So Much More, a few Doug Wilson gems, some Vision Forum stuff, that sort of thing. Some of the books ended up in the recycling bin, but only after I had given the kidults first crack at the books. You see, they had expressed regret at not having had the chance to burn some of the books we’d discarded earlier. So when I found more, mixed in with homeschool stuff, I gave them “first refusal”. I assume the books they pulled out (including IKDG and some horrific stuff by Stacey MacDonald and Jennie Chancey) got burned. I hope they got some satisfaction out of it, too.

[Palimpsest]

2 hours ago, refugee said:

n cleaning out boxes of homeschooling books that moved with us, we found more—including IKDG, the Botkins’ So Much More, a few Doug Wilson gems, some Vision Forum stuff, that sort of thing. Some of the books ended up in the recycling bin, but only after I had given the kidults first crack at the books. You see, they had expressed regret at not having had the chance to burn some of the books we’d discarded earlier.

Eh.  I've been known to scout used book stores and suchlike  to buy to destroy some of this stuff so it doesn't hurt others.  I never have to pay more than a few cents and destroying them gives me pleasure.  I have shredded quite a few copies of TTUAC personally.

However, I do have a small archive in the cellar.  I keep a single copy of the worst stuff just in case I ever need to refer to it. 

Actually, @MamaJunebug was the inspiration for this archive.  She sent me some VF crap because I have room to store it at the moment.  I should probably just scan and dispose of all the dead tree copies though.  When I have time.

If anyone has any Wisdom Booklets lying around my collection of those is not yet complete ...  

Edited July 24, 2019 by Palimpsest

[MamaJunebug]

20 hours ago, Palimpsest said:

Eh.  I've been known to scout used book stores and suchlike  to buy to destroy some of this stuff so it doesn't hurt others.  I never have to pay more than a few cents and destroying them gives me pleasure.  I have shredded quite a few copies of TTUAC personally.

You’ve inspired me, my friend. Having downsized & minimalized & streamlined within an inch of my life, I’ve stopped resaling and kind of missed it. Now, I have a goal!

Have been reading up on Harris’ “I kissed apologizing goodbye” tour and am thoroughly disgusted.  He’s consistent in weasel-wording his “admissions” to disperse blame over the whole of Christianity and never simply admitting that it was near the height of arrogance to posture himself as a 20-yo expert. 

I know this isn’t news, but for those coming in late, he edited his “apology” video to omit important statements (google Elizabeth Esther’s experience for deets).

The video  sounds like a vanity effort intended to show him as such a victim, but also a spunky guy trying to make sense of it all,  (I haven’t watched it & won’t  unless dinner is included at my fave cafe)

My cynical side sees the release of the video as positioning him in his new career, as much as exploring his precious misjudgments. 

Potential clients of Ckear And Loud (Joshua Harris’s consulting’s company) clients discuss whether or not to hire him:

Potential client #1: ”OK, he had that weirdness with that book. Is he gonna go all religious-nutcase on us, if we hire him?”

Potential client #2: ”Y’know,  I kinda doubt it — all over that video, he looks so uncertain, so befuddled. Like he’s sincerely fighting ut out. I kinda think he’s over that religious stuff.”

Shannon is not my taste in music but I am rooting for her, at this point. And their kids. In their mid- and late teens, I guess? What a weirdass time they’ve had of it. 

PS: I find it highly significant that Paterfamilias Gregg Harris now makes a living teaching people how to build their first terrariums. A dirty business (ha, ha, ha) making closed environments.  I wonder if he has tiny porcelain figures of Lady Flo and Doug Phillips Is A Tool doing the flamenco  

 

Edited July 25, 2019 by MamaJunebug

[refugee]

@MamaJunebug I find it interesting that Shannon has posted about manipulators (two of them?) in her life, but has seen fit to clarify that Josh is not one of them.

[hoipolloi]

Had the pleasure of being a tourist in London recently, where I of course luxuriated in all the bookstores. 

Considered buying this item (on the remainders shelf at a Waterstones) to be sure it didn't circulate further, but my suitcases were already laden with far more worthy titles. 

Besides, they should have paid ME £1 to take it!

[Palimpsest]

42 minutes ago, refugee said:

@MamaJunebug I find it interesting that Shannon has posted about manipulators (two of them?) in her life, but has seen fit to clarify that Josh is not one of them.

Well, one of them was probably C.J. Mahaney.  And I'm not sure Josh is a manipulator, per se.  A life-long (and practically professional) victim who doesn't take enough responsibility for serious mistakes he has made during his career as a writer and pastor, yes.  A manipulator, not necessarily.

[MamaJunebug]

43 minutes ago, refugee said:

@MamaJunebug I find it interesting that Shannon has posted about manipulators (two of them?) in her life, but has seen fit to clarify that Josh is not one of them.

I know!!! My reptilian brain went into full conspiracy mode on that one. 

Possibility #1: They’ve come to realize that they both were manipulated by their parents & their culture, so blaming each other is less productive than looking towards the real culprit;

and / or

Possibility #2: They’ve agreed to hold each other above reproach publicly for the sake of their children; 

and / or

Possibility #3:  They’ve agreed to hold each other above reproach publicly for the sake of Josh’s nascent consulting business. 

and / or

Possibility #4: Whatever problem behaviors were between them, manipulation was not one of them. 

None Of these are mutually exclusive but I tend towards #2 & #3, and hope for #1 & #4.

 

[hoipolloi]

12 minutes ago, Palimpsest said:

Well, one of them was probably C.J. Mahaney.  And I'm not sure Josh is a manipulator, per se.  A life-long (and practically professional) victim who doesn't take enough responsibility for serious mistakes he has made during his career as a writer and pastor, yes.  A manipulator, not necessarily.

Agree -- almost certainly one of them was C.J. Mahaney. Perhaps the other was C.J.'s brother-in-law, Gary Ricucci, or Jeff Purswell, who has long been identified as one of the more abusive members of the SGM inner circle.

Of course, with the exception of Josh Harris and a few others, like Brent Detwiler, the former SGM fuckwads of CLC have all decamped to Louisville, KY where their lips are still firmly attached to C.J.'s ass. In that list of pastors, three of the seven are related to C.J. by marriage -- his sons-in-law (Chesemore & Whiteacre) and BIL (Ricucci). C.J.'s third son-in-law, Mike Bradshaw, is only a deacon.

Like many fundie cults, SG Louisville is primarily a full-employment venture for the Mahaneys and their family.

 

[refugee]

And I understand it’s not even that big a church. How are the tithers managing to support so many professional preacher types?

[hoipolloi]

Just now, refugee said:

How are the tithers managing to support so many professional preacher types?

Good question. You'd think some would notice where their money is going.

[Palimpsest]

40 minutes ago, hoipolloi said:

Of course, with the exception of Josh Harris and a few others, like Brent Detwiler,

Gotta hand it to Brent and a Todd Wilhelm.  They just called out Josh Harris for blatant lying.  (Darn, I'm having technical problems with the link.  Hope this works)

Quote

Brent Detwiler‏ @BrentDetwiler Jul 20

 

Brent Detwiler Retweeted Todd Wilhelm

Josh is blatantly lying. There are no examples of the Covenant Life pastors ever reporting the sexual abuse of children to law enforcement before they were exposed.. For years, I'v be asking them to cite one case. Still waiting...

https://twitter.com/BrentDetwiler

And can you shed any light on this (same twitter thread).

Spoiler

 

James Beamer‏ @jamesbeamy Jul 20

Replying to @ThouArtTheMan @HarrisJosh

If he’s in bed with sojo now it’s all over. All integrity lost.

 

What is sojo?

ETA I found the answer to that.  https://sojo.net/about/about-sojourners.  I have in the dark recesses of my brain a vague thought that they are "mediators" who always side with churches, but I may be wrong. 

Anyone else know anything about them?

One thing about Joshua Harris that people tend to forget.  He was definitely groomed by Mahaney, but he was the lead and Senior Pastor at Covenant Life from 2004 to 2015.  So babbling on about how Sovereign Grace was insular and "mistakes were made" by others is so f'ing disingenuous.  And I do think he is lying when he says any cases were reported to the proper authorities.

For those who aren't familiar with this particular scandal, the sexual abuse suit was finally dropped due to problems with the Statute of Limitations.  Grrrr.  We all need to work on that issue.  Too many abusers have got away scott free.

 

Edited July 25, 2019 by Palimpsest

[MamaJunebug]

35 minutes ago, Palimpsest said:

about Joshua Harris that people tend to forget.  He was definitely groomed by Mahaney, but he was the lead and Senior Pastor at Covenant Life from 2004 to 2015.  So babbling on about how Sovereign Grace was insular and "mistakes were made" by others is so f'ing disingenuous.  And I do think he is lying when he says any cases were reported to the proper authorities.

I had not known that. Gag. I hope the wife and children can somehow stay clear of his way of life. 

[hoipolloi]

44 minutes ago, Palimpsest said:

One thing about Joshua Harris that people tend to forget.  He was definitely groomed by Mahaney, but he was the lead and Senior Pastor at Covenant Life from 2004 to 2015.  So babbling on about how Sovereign Grace was insular and "mistakes were made" by others is so f'ing disingenuous.  And I do think he is lying when he says any cases were reported to the proper authorities.

Absolutely. This is why I don't cut him any slack on his various mea culpas and aw-shucks apologies for IKDG and the purity cult.

The now-deleted FB post where he was chortling about having escaped the "?- show" at CLC was proof positive. And, yes, the item in quote marks here is EXACTLY how he posted it on FB.

Ultimately, either he was too fucking stupid to understand what was happening at CLC -- in which case why and how could he be a lead pastor for years? -- or he's lying through his teeth. I vote for lying through his teeth.

 

Edited July 25, 2019 by hoipolloi
Clarity

[Antipatriarch]

2 hours ago, Palimpsest said:

For those who aren't familiar with this particular scandal, the sexual abuse suit was finally dropped due to problems with the Statute of Limitations.  Grrrr.  We all need to work on that issue.  Too many abusers have got away scott free.

If anyone ever wanted to transform into a pure volcano of rage, reading the Second Amended Complaint (court document) filed against SGM in that case will do the trick. What was done to those children, something like 17 of them IIRC, and what the leaders did to protect their churches and utterly fail to comfort the victims, is absolutely reprehensible. Mahaney steadfastly maintains he didn't know any of it was going on, he was never told. Given the familial ties (described above), and the top-down authoritarian nature of SGM, I do not believe him.

People like Rachel Denhollander are still calling for an independent investigation, and SGM is still (as late as April of this year) saying, "No, no, we can't and won't do that, surrender our eldership responsibility in this matter, etc."  I'd link to their response but they seem to have removed it from their web site, the cowards.

[kpmom]

3 hours ago, hoipolloi said:

Had the pleasure of being a tourist in London recently, where I of course luxuriated in all the bookstores. 

Considered buying this item (on the remainders shelf at a Waterstones) to be sure it didn't circulate further, but my suitcases were already laden with far more worthy titles. 

Besides, they should have paid ME £1 to take it!

Geez, isn't that country going through enough, what with Brexit and Kate and Meghan feuding and all that?

Must they be tortured by IKDG too?

[hoipolloi]

5 minutes ago, kpmom said:

Must they be tortured by IKDG too?

I hope that the fact it was on the remainders shelf means that IKDG is a dying thing in the UK, too, but I don't really have any concept of how pervasive American-style fundie shite is there.

[MamaJunebug]

8 minutes ago, hoipolloi said:

I hope that the fact it was on the remainders shelf means that IKDG is a dying thing in the UK, too, but I don't really have any concept of how pervasive American-style fundie shite is there.

It griped me that it was a “workbook.”  So the Harris Family made back twice off its seeking public. 

Edited July 25, 2019 by MamaJunebug

[Palimpsest]

15 minutes ago, hoipolloi said:

I hope that the fact it was on the remainders shelf means that IKDG is a dying thing in the UK, too, but I don't really have any concept of how pervasive American-style fundie shite is there.

There are certainly  some homegrown Fundies in the UK.  And the UK has it share of fascist white supremacist types too.  It has always had those.  The US did not invent hate.  

There are also far too many US Fundie "Missionaries" to the UK too.  Most of them don't seem very effective.  I keep an eye on a few.  Bless their hearts.  I really should check in on Hodnett again soon.

But they don't seem to be making major inroads there.  Most of our UK members bemoan the fact that they can't Fundie-spot as often as they would like.

London is my old stamping ground.  I think it is a glorious (but expensive) place to visit and I hope you enjoyed it.  I usually suggest to tourists to London that they spend at least one afternoon just walking the West End or the City, and looking for Blue Plaques.  That is a fantastic way to experience the history, the architecture, and the essential vibrancy of the place.

I spent a whole 6 years in London (18 - 24) and it is probably the closest thing I have to a home town in the UK because we moved countries and houses so often when I was a child.  I'm feeling a bit homesick for London now.

 

[hoipolloi]

2 minutes ago, Palimpsest said:

I think it is a glorious (but expensive) place to visit and I hope you enjoyed it.  I usually suggest to tourists to London that they spend at least one afternoon just walking the West End or the City, and looking for Blue Plaques. 

Yes, it is expensive which is why Mr Hoi & I were pigging it economizing by staying in AirBnBs.* 

Re: what to do in London. Well, as the good Dr. J. (the academic one, not the athlete) said, s/he who is tired of London is tired of life. My general daily plan was to visit a specific place or two every day and then allow myself 1-2 hours in the afternoon to go walkabout after taking the Tube or a bus to within a mile or two of where we were staying. You won't be surprised to learn that I did not run out of things to do, and that there were always more Blue Plaques to spy along the way. 

*I do not like the gig economy concept, including AirBnBs, but with a city like London, you can't stay more than one or two nights in a hotel or proper B & B unless you've won the lottery. I wish that hotels, etc. would consider having weekly rates. I'd prefer to be in one rather than in an AirBnB. I was also surprised by the way AirBnB has thoroughly infiltrated even council housing. Residents were uniformly nice to us when we met in the hallway or at the elevator but I would not have blamed them for resenting the major influx of non-residents on such a constant basis.

[Leftitinmysnood]

@Palimpsest, I mostly know Sojo for their Sojourners webzine, but many evangelicals would consider them "social justice warriors" because of their petition to Obama for a pathway to citizenship, outspokeness on not believing in classifying illegal immigrants as second class or less worthy of opportunity, and wanting health care reform. They also had quite a bit to say about overseas conflicts. Not radical from where I sit, but enough to make the fundies twitch. They still seem to be anti- LGBTQ and aren't open border exactly, but being in their camp would make Josh an apostate to a lot of his old crowd. 

[SusanAtTheLastBattle]

5 hours ago, Leftitinmysnood said:

@Palimpsest, I mostly know Sojo for their Sojourners webzine, but many evangelicals would consider them "social justice warriors" because of their petition to Obama for a pathway to citizenship, outspokeness on not believing in classifying illegal immigrants as second class or less worthy of opportunity, and wanting health care reform. They also had quite a bit to say about overseas conflicts. Not radical from where I sit, but enough to make the fundies twitch. They still seem to be anti- LGBTQ and aren't open border exactly, but being in their camp would make Josh an apostate to a lot of his old crowd. 

I’m surprised to hear that Sojourners is anti-LGBTQ; I thought of them as being more uniformly progressive than that.

They have reported on LGBTQ issues in positive ways, and have a tag for that on their site (https://sojo.net/tags/lgbt).

[Leftitinmysnood]

21 minutes ago, SusanAtTheLastBattle said:

I’m surprised to hear that Sojourners is anti-LGBTQ; I thought of them as being more uniformly progressive than that.

They have reported on LGBTQ issues in positive ways, and have a tag for that on their site (https://sojo.net/tags/lgbt).

Ok, so after some deeper digging, I was going from memory of this statement https://sojo.net/articles/statement-sojourners-mission-and-lgbtq-issues which is more of a "we don't want to let this get in the way of our original mission". I do not see an official update to this statement and the FAQ link at the top of the page seems broken, but it does look like Sojo as a whole has moved to be more supportive of complete inclusivity and marriage in the church. They did not used to be. I stand corrected.