Josh Harris Announced "I Kissed Dating Goodbye" Was Discontinued

[Caroline]

7 hours ago, hoipolloi said:

I've said this before here but most parents -- fundie or secular -- would do just about anything to keep their kids safe until they're grown. I include myself in this group. Moving through our kid's teenage years was scary.

That's why these parenting methods that guarantee success if you follow them exactly -- from John Rosemond to IKDG -- are so alluring. We all want to be absolutely certain that our kids will safely negotiate childhood & adolescence and reach adulthood as great human beings. Of course, the hucksters of these "how to" manuals take no responsibility for bad outcomes -- their response is always, "Well, you were doing it wrong."

@sableduck - you make good points about Josh's parents & his upbringing. I can't say that I'm very sympathetic towards him now but IKDG & his hubris didn't come out of nowhere. My sympathy is with their kids & with Shannon. I hope that these past few years out of the SGM cult and in Canada have changed their lives for the better, allowing them to see all of the possibilities for themselves and acquiring the tools to attain those possibilities.

 

I agree that most parents would do anything to keep their kids safe, but most parents are realistic and know it's not possible to protect kids from every bad thing.  I don't believe in helicopter/snowplow parenting because I've seen it damage too many kids.  I've been a high school teacher for more than 35 years and have raised one child.  It was tough sometimes to not shield her from everything, but if I'd done that she would not be the confident and capable young adult she is.  Mistakes are part of learning, and most mistakes fortunately are not going to ruin one's life.  Too many Josh Harris types think that their Biblical guide book is the answer to everything.  I'm glad he's starting to think otherwise (I hope).

[hoipolloi]

 

3 hours ago, Palimpsest said:

Whatever Josh Harris now regrets about his past actions, writing, and pastoral career with Sovereign Grace (wherein he covered up sexual abuse, let's not forget that) -- none of it was his fault.  And I expect his marriage failing wasn't his fault either.  Everything is always somebody else's fault....Whatever his upbringing, he needs to take responsibility for a good 20 years of adult bad decision-making all by his little self.  He jumped from Sovereign Grace like a rat leaving a sinking ship and has never admitted any culpability there.

This is the crux of it, for me.

It's possible that Josh Harris may actually be thinking things over in an attempt to do & be better, but I suspect that his primary impulse is to leave it all in the past.

For example, earlier in this discussion, I linked to a public FB post of his (from 2017 or 2018), in which he callously referred to the trauma at CLC -- while he was a pastor there -- as a shit show, saying he was glad he was out of it & hoped that those who were also there at the time were doing well. Of course, that comment is now gone or hidden from his timeline. If you follow the link in my previous comment, this is what you get:

Yep, Josh -- we see you for the fraud you are.

 

[formergothardite]

3 hours ago, Palimpsest said:

He is putting a different spin on his earlier interviews.  He is now saying that he was still on his "journey" getting input and listening to people when he said all that, and failed to say he was sorry.

Quote

When it comes to something like sex abuse, we just did not have the training. We needed to be calling in other people, we needed to be, obviously, making sure that — and we did report many cases of sexual abuse, but in some cases obviously we made huge mistakes.

This is not showing me someone who really understands or is sorry for the damage they caused while being a pastor. It is other people's fault he didn't report sex abuse, it isn't his fault! Plus, it was just a mistake and everyone makes mistakes. 

[DarkAnts]

I am happy she is finding her voice. Sounds like there was abuse. I hope she finds the support she needs to recover from the abuse.

Edited July 22, 2019 by DarkAnts

[Whipple]

 

 

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6 hours ago, Caroline said:

I agree that most parents would do anything to keep their kids safe, but most parents are realistic and know it's not possible to protect kids from every bad thing.  I don't believe in helicopter/snowplow parenting because I've seen it damage too many kids.  I've been a high school teacher for more than 35 years and have raised one child.  It was tough sometimes to not shield her from everything, but if I'd done that she would not be the confident and capable young adult she is.  Mistakes are part of learning, and most mistakes fortunately are not going to ruin one's life.  Too many Josh Harris types think that their Biblical guide book is the answer to everything.  I'm glad he's starting to think otherwise (I hope).

I have been jealous of my friends who have sweet, pliable Josh Harris-type children. I would have loved to be a helicopter parent with my one but he started toward independence as soon as he could walk. If I did not learn to separate, I would have no relationship with the adult he is now. Once he got upset when I emailed a teacher when he was in high school about homework and sports conflicts even though he did not have the will to contact teachers on his own to solve issues. I learned to help him when he asked for it and that was it. This was not negotiable. If he had been adopted into a QF family, they would have had a time with him and no Alert problem could have broken him. He would have just gotten angrier. Some people cannot be brainwashed or groomed. (Maybe that's why BG does not like adoption--the genetics of strong-willed independent personalities must have something to do with it because I was the same way.)  

Anyway, we all have to let our kids fall and fail. That's how they learn coping and problem-solving skills and how to be functioning adults. QF practices represent the worst aspects of parenting.

[stylites]

I presume that Josh's wife came from a similar background of homeschoolers?  It's hard to tell at a remove, but in some way what seems to be happening seems to be that they are going through the kind of self discovery process that people normally go through on entering adulthood - I'm saying this on the back of a number of different tells, like JH going to seminary, and then deciding he doesn't want to be a pastor, or in things like this:

https://shannonbonne.bandcamp.com/

Nothing wrong with people making music later in life of course - but everything appears to compound the narrative of 'growing up'.

[Spinosaurus]

Shannon was actually born into a normal family and had a normal childhood, although her parents were divorced.  After leaving university she wanted to be a professional singer, then she Got Saved.*  I did think it was a bit sad that she had to junk her career when she became a christian, maybe this is her pressing 'play' again.

 

*Josh makes a big deal of her having had sex with her ex-boyfriends, once basing a whole chapter on saying that she'd lost her virginity when she was fourteen (maybe I'm being prudish, but I don't think the age your partner started having sex is something it's ok to tell everyone else), and how that really didn't matter to God because she'd been Forgiven, but he was still having trouble thinking that it was ok.  [Insert huge sigh here.]

[OhNoNike]

My first marriage was really short.   He was a class A narcissist, manipulator, guy who acted like he knew everything, etc.  I was only married for 8 months and it still took me about 2 years to really trust people again.  It felt like coming into some other world - a world I’d been in before and only in this fantasy world for about 1.5 years (dating and marrying), but it was so weird.  But I came out so much stronger on the other side.  And instead of bitterness, I learned to be more compassionate and understanding.  So I can only imagine what it’s like coming from all of this (marriage, pastor’s wife, evangelical religion).  

So hey, Shannon, if you’re ever reading here.  Just a virtual fist bump for you.  You got this. 

11 minutes ago, Spinosaurus said:

Shannon was actually born into a normal family and had a normal childhood, although her parents were divorced.  After leaving university she wanted to be a professional singer, then she Got Saved.*  I did think it was a bit sad that she had to junk her career when she became a christian, maybe this is her pressing 'play' again.

 

*Josh makes a big deal of her having had sex with her ex-boyfriends, once basing a whole chapter on saying that she'd lost her virginity when she was fourteen (maybe I'm being prudish, but I don't think the age your partner started having sex is something it's ok to tell everyone else), and how that really didn't matter to God because she'd been Forgiven, but he was still having trouble thinking that it was ok.  [Insert huge sigh here.]

I am guessing he acted like such a martyr for taking on such a flawed, damaged woman, too...?

[Spinosaurus]

Wouldn't be surprised.  He made another Big Deal out of saying that while he felt sad about her not being a virgin (not about what might have happened in the relationships, just that they weren't with him), he wasn't going to bring the subject up if they argued, in classic 'protesting too much' fashion.

[stylites]

1 hour ago, Spinosaurus said:

*Josh makes a big deal of her having had sex with her ex-boyfriends, once basing a whole chapter on saying that she'd lost her virginity when she was fourteen (maybe I'm being prudish, but I don't think the age your partner started having sex is something it's ok to tell everyone else), and how that really didn't matter to God because she'd been Forgiven, but he was still having trouble thinking that it was ok.  [Insert huge sigh here.]

Publicising both the fact that she had and the age she was when she had strikes me as both a phenomenally shitty and unwise thing to do.  Even if she was okay with it at the time - it's the kind of thing that no one really needs to know and ends up storing up much trouble for later.

One of those cases where the world is wiser than the church

[seraaa]

8 hours ago, DarkAnts said:

I am happy she is finding her voice. Sounds like there was abuse. I hope she finds the support she needs to recover from the abuse.

She says in other comments that he isn't talking about Josh. I think she's referring to either the church culture of SGM, or maybe specific people there

[AmazonGrace]

3 hours ago, Spinosaurus said:

Shannon was actually born into a normal family and had a normal childhood, although her parents were divorced.  After leaving university she wanted to be a professional singer, then she Got Saved.*  I did think it was a bit sad that she had to junk her career when she became a christian, maybe this is her pressing 'play' again.

 

*Josh makes a big deal of her having had sex with her ex-boyfriends, once basing a whole chapter on saying that she'd lost her virginity when she was fourteen (maybe I'm being prudish, but I don't think the age your partner started having sex is something it's ok to tell everyone else), and how that really didn't matter to God because she'd been Forgiven, but he was still having trouble thinking that it was ok.  [Insert huge sigh here.]

A classic case of Holier Than God.

[AmazonGrace]

3 hours ago, Spinosaurus said:

Wouldn't be surprised.  He made another Big Deal out of saying that while he felt sad about her not being a virgin (not about what might have happened in the relationships, just that they weren't with him), he wasn't going to bring the subject up if they argued, in classic 'protesting too much' fashion.

I'm not going to bring it up except when I do, like right now

[Marserin]

A few weeks ago, I was sitting in the front car when a train hit a person. I am still seriously freaked out by it.

[nokidsmom]

6 hours ago, stylites said:

Publicising both the fact that she had and the age she was when she had strikes me as both a phenomenally shitty and unwise thing to do.  Even if she was okay with it at the time - it's the kind of thing that no one really needs to know and ends up storing up much trouble for later.

Publicizing this information....just no.  Absolutely no reason to do this, it shows a serious lack of respect for her to publicize such a thing, and as to the question of whether or not she was ok with it.....it should have never been considered in the first place.

Had a friend who complained that his wife was not a virgin when they married but was surprised they were having problems.  Well, no shit Sherlock, I would expect there to be serious problems given you show no respect for your wife talking about such things.   And like Mr. Harris, he went ahead and married his wife anyway.    I mean, if it's important for you to have your spouse be a virgin upon marriage, and someone is not, then you have the option of not marrying them.  Nobody's pointing a gun to your head.   But if you go ahead anyway, that's fine, but then you don't make a big deal about it, the assumption is (hopefully) you have accepted it.   To anyone, most of all your spouse.

No wonder those two are getting a divorce.  I understand Mr. Harris may have had a change of heart but he publicized things that were not just damaging to people but to himself and his wife personally.  That's stuff that one cannot take back.

Yes, I am a bit sensitive to this as this sort of thing was one of the reasons why I kicked my former fiance to the curb.  Aside from being very messed up, he needlessly shared information about, ahem, our private life, to others.  It's damaging, it shows lack of respect and the logical outcome for the offending party is absolutely deserved.  

Edited July 22, 2019 by nokidsmom

[Terrie]

Is he growing and developing? Well, yes, it looks like he's learning to question what he's been told his whole life. That said, he's too old to be this immature. He still doesn't seem to be ready to confront how his action hurt other people, and he still seems a little too in love with the spotlight for my taste. 

[refugee]

On 7/21/2019 at 12:51 PM, Palimpsest said:

Yes, best selling author of books he now says were not correct.  TEDx speaker saying that IKDG was wrong.  Documentary filmmaker of one film all about Josh Harris's journey to admitting that he may have been mistaken.

Testimonials please, Joshua.  What is your actual business marketing experience.  Do tell.

I will say, he is certainly good at marketing himself!   

He ought to be. It's what his parents trained him and his brothers for. (ETA: I don't know much about the sister.)

Frankly, I'm not surprised he took a four-day course and is trying to build a marketing business. It's his skill set. Telling a good story and getting people to want what you have. We saw him on a panel of high school homeschooled students, painting bright verbal pictures, and we said, "Wow! He's so full of life and joy! He (seems) so wise for his age, not like the kids we know hanging around the skate park who seem so aimless, who don't appear to have any ambition or energy to do something with their lives. We want our kids to experience the same joyful sense of purpose."

god I was so gullible in those days. Never even crossed my mind that so much of fundie life was an empty shell (the phrase "whitewashed tombs" comes to mind), putting on a good front, love-bombing and pretending to have it all so others would want the same for themselves, because that was the kind of "lifestyle evangelism" that was being preached and written about in the books we so eagerly bought (conveniently lining the "experts' " pockets at the same time).

His dad was big into sales. Selling a lifestyle. Selling a belief system. Selling a checklist for living. Selling all the tools that went along with it. You should have seen the Harrises' tables (ETA: booth, more like) at homeschool conferences with all their Noble Press titles.

His mom Sono was as enthusiastic a salesperson at the workshops for women I attended. Maybe she wasn't writing books (there was one book on PE for homeschoolers, don't know if there were more?), but she presented this confident, successful appearance of having it all together.

Speaking of women leaving their talents/skills/training behind when marrying, Sono did not give up her dancing immediately. I remember seeing pictures of her dancing with Josh as a very little kid. Maybe for the benefit of the Crisis Pregnancy Center? Can't remember, exactly. She also started a speech and debate club for the homeschoolers in their church that was the envy of the local Christian homeschool community. People we knew joined their church just so their kids could participate in the speech and debate club. She was definitely no wallflower fading into the background.

I held her in high esteem, bought their materials, tried to copy some of the organizational advice they trumpeted (now I know that my disorganization would have been better helped with treatment for ADHD, learning coping skills and maybe meds). I was hit hard by her death. A friend tried to comfort me by telling me she wasn't the paragon she presented herself as in public... I don't know what went on behind the scenes, but I've pondered that ever since.

Edited July 22, 2019 by refugee
clarification

[seraaa]

2 hours ago, Terrie said:

Is he growing and developing? Well, yes, it looks like he's learning to question what he's been told his whole life. That said, he's too old to be this immature. He still doesn't seem to be ready to confront how his action hurt other people, and he still seems a little too in love with the spotlight for my taste. 

I see this as one of the tragedies of the insular culture and narrow worldview of fundamentalism. These people are only now beginning to exercise critical muscles and deal with emotional experiences that were denied to them or suppressed before.

[Howl]

A relative is teaching intro English at college level.  There are some homeschooled students who just don't "get" assignments.  They don't understand that when the assignment is a certain topic, they have to write about that topic, and not some other random thing that interests them.  No mercy is shown to these kids, BYW.  Rough road ahead if they don't figure it out pretty quick. 

[MamaJunebug]

2 hours ago, refugee said:

He ought to be. It's what his parents trained him and his brothers for. (ETA: I don't know much about the sister.)

Frankly, I'm not surprised he took a four-day course and is trying to build a marketing business. It's his skill set. Telling a good story and getting people to want what you have. We saw him on a panel of high school homeschooled students, painting bright verbal pictures, and we said, "Wow! He's so full of life and joy! He (seems) so wise for his age, not like the kids we know hanging around the skate park who seem so aimless, who don't appear to have any ambition or energy to do something with their lives. We want our kids to experience the same joyful sense of purpose."

god I was so gullible in those days. Never even crossed my mind that so much of fundie life was an empty shell (the phrase "whitewashed tombs" comes to mind), putting on a good front, love-bombing and pretending to have it all so others would want the same for themselves, because that was the kind of "lifestyle evangelism" that was being preached and written about in the books we so eagerly bought (conveniently lining the "experts' " pockets at the same time).

His dad was big into sales. Selling a lifestyle. Selling a belief system. Selling a checklist for living. Selling all the tools that went along with it. You should have seen the Harrises' tables (ETA: booth, more like) at homeschool conferences with all their Noble Press titles.

His mom Sono was as enthusiastic a salesperson at the workshops for women I attended. Maybe she wasn't writing books (there was one book on PE for homeschoolers, don't know if there were more?), but she presented this confident, successful appearance of having it all together.

Speaking of women leaving their talents/skills/training behind when marrying, Sono did not give up her dancing immediately. I remember seeing pictures of her dancing with Josh as a very little kid. Maybe for the benefit of the Crisis Pregnancy Center? Can't remember, exactly. She also started a speech and debate club for the homeschoolers in their church that was the envy of the local Christian homeschool community. People we knew joined their church just so their kids could participate in the speech and debate club. She was definitely no wallflower fading into the background.

I held her in high esteem, bought their materials, tried to copy some of the organizational advice they trumpeted (now I know that my disorganization would have been better helped with treatment for ADHD, learning coping skills and maybe meds). I was hit hard by her death. A friend tried to comfort me by telling me she wasn't the paragon she presented herself as in public... I don't know what went on behind the scenes, but I've pondered that ever since.

@refugee, so many thanks for your stories. As a second-generation American and a voracious fan of all thing Japanese, I’m intrigued by the late Mrs. Harris, May she Rest In Peace. Do you know: was she an immigrant? 

[KWLand]

His video is available on amazon prime.  I never read his book but had friends who followed the book, but until recently I wouldn't have been able to tell you anything about him.  Anyway, he does seem sincerely apologetic in the video.  At one time he says people told him that nobody made those people read the book and he says something along the lines that it's still not right that he wrote a book that was so damaging because the culture that read the book and followed the book were those who didn't question.  He reaches out to those he knows will truthfully tell him why the book was bad.

I can't remember any other Christian author acknowledging that their writing was not biblical or taking responsibility for their teachings.   So, while I think he still has a lot to apology for (based off my current understanding of what all he's been involved with), it's nice to see someone take some kind of responsibility for their teachings.

[refugee]

3 hours ago, MamaJunebug said:

@refugee, so many thanks for your stories. As a second-generation American and a voracious fan of all thing Japanese, I’m intrigued by the late Mrs. Harris, May she Rest In Peace. Do you know: was she an immigrant? 

I don’t know. If so, she would have been young enough to (as an adult) speak flawless, colloquial English with no trace of foreign accent or grammatical errors. I remember hearing that certain sounds in different languages are (must be?) learned at a very young age. I don’t know if it’s true.

[MamaJunebug]

14 minutes ago, refugee said:

I don’t know. If so, she would have been young enough to (as an adult) speak flawless, colloquial English with no trace of foreign accent or grammatical errors. I remember hearing that certain sounds in different languages are (must be?) learned at a very young age. I don’t know if it’s true.

Thank you. Sounds like she was Nisei (born here to immigrant parents). 

[louisa05]

2 hours ago, koalawatch said:

His video is available on amazon prime.  I never read his book but had friends who followed the book, but until recently I wouldn't have been able to tell you anything about him.  Anyway, he does seem sincerely apologetic in the video.  At one time he says people told him that nobody made those people read the book and he says something along the lines that it's still not right that he wrote a book that was so damaging because the culture that read the book and followed the book were those who didn't question.  He reaches out to those he knows will truthfully tell him why the book was bad.

I can't remember any other Christian author acknowledging that their writing was not biblical or taking responsibility for their teachings.   So, while I think he still has a lot to apology for (based off my current understanding of what all he's been involved with), it's nice to see someone take some kind of responsibility for their teachings.

In that part, he does acknowledge that there is/was a lot of pressure to conform within evangelical culture and that when leaders are touting something as practically biblical law, people don't have a real choice. 

He doesn't say this: but it was aimed at young people who, in evangelical culture, are trained to trust the judgement and counsel of leaders in church and church related organizations where the nonsense of IKDG was pushed. 

As some have noted, JH absolutely wasn't a pioneer with any of this. I first heard of a couple not dating and not kissing until marriage in 1992. He just wrote the most popular handbook. 

[dripcurl]

*stream of consciousness induced by exhaustion - bear with me*

 

It was very ironic, that the day this thread came out was the day I was moving out of my own apartment and into my fiancé’s apartment, and in my garage I had IKDG  among some other fundie books. Needless to say I tossed them right into the Goodwill box. One thing that I noticed even when I was drinking the Kool-Aid of these type of books about a decade ago was that there were some inconsistencies with I kissed dating goodbye and Harris’ other book Say Hello to Courtship that he wrote a few years later.  

The main was that at the end of the book he had eight ideas for date nights with the cording couple. At least two of them pretty much required that the couple would have no immediate supervision of people who would hold them accountable:  I remember for sure that babysitting kids together was one, and  think volunteering together would have been another. 

 

He also encouraged in SHTC types of conversations that would spark deeper bonds of emotional intimacy that directly conflicted with the overbearing caution of giving away pieces of one’s heart found in IKDG. 

In IKDG, I recall his adamance that even in a relationship to still view the other person as a brother and sister in Christ, and to think of them in that manner when “impure thoughts” may strike. Very icky.