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Josh Harris Announced "I Kissed Dating Goodbye" Was Discontinued


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10 minutes ago, Antipatriarch said:

Incredibly, Brent actually believes he is, literally, an apostle. The original leaders of PDI (which later became SGM) believe that apostleship didn't end with the N.T. They created an "Apostolic Team" at the top. The pastors of all the churches in the SGM network were accountable to the A Team. The A Team was only accountable to themselves. They were strongly authoritative in the way they led; questioning the leadership was discouraged (e.g. "sinfully craving answers"). Yeah, I can't see any ways that could go wrong.

On a recent post over at SGM Survivors, several former SGMers pressed Brent strongly to answer whether he still believed this "apostleship" polity and practice was correct, and eventually he said clearly he still does. So in his eyes, he's writing with the authority of an apostle.

More and more, I'm tempted to go down this hole. The other comments on the link you posted are making me curiouser and curiouser. Do we have enough ferrets to pull me back out if necessary? I'm afraid the hole is going to be pretty deep. 

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On 7/27/2019 at 8:31 AM, Palimpsest said:

Yes.  I think that was a handsome and comprehensive apology from Joshua, especially to women and the LGBTQ+ community.  He does seem to have had a real epiphany.  I respect that.  I don't think he was there even a few months ago.  Thank you, Joshua Harris.  I doff my hat to you.

I agree that Josh made a sincere apology and is owning up to his actions.   It was brave of him to acknowledge honestly where he stands regarding his faith because admitting to such a crisis brings down a lot of criticism in his circles as we are seeing, though he is getting a lot of support too.  It is probably going to be tough going with this family, seeing how his father is.     I hope he comes to realize that he's on a journey and in the end he may very well realize he's still Christian after all, albeit by different definitions than the ones he was raised with. 

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1 hour ago, nokidsmom said:

I agree that Josh made a sincere apology and is owning up to his actions.   It was brave of him to acknowledge honestly where he stands regarding his faith because admitting to such a crisis brings down a lot of criticism in his circles as we are seeing, though he is getting a lot of support too.  It is probably going to be tough going with this family, seeing how his father is.     I hope he comes to realize that he's on a journey and in the end he may very well realize he's still Christian after all, albeit by different definitions than the ones he was raised with. 

QFT, @nokidsmom.  To think of the reaction Gregg (Definitely-Not-Teddy) Harris had to a critical customer as a sample of the reaction he had to his firstborn leaving the fold?  The mind reels.  

2 hours ago, Antipatriarch said:

Incredibly, Brent actually believes he is, literally, an apostle. The original leaders of PDI (which later became SGM) believe that apostleship didn't end with the N.T. They created an "Apostolic Team" at the top. The pastors of all the churches in the SGM network were accountable to the A Team. The A Team was only accountable to themselves. ...

On a recent post over at SGM Survivors, several former SGMers pressed Brent strongly to answer whether he still believed this "apostleship" polity and practice was correct, and eventually he said clearly he still does. So in his eyes, he's writing with the authority of an apostle.

Oh, the present-day apostles. 

Do they ever think about the OG apostles losing every possession they had - if they had any to begin with - and dying torturous deaths (except for John on the Isle of Patmos)?

No, I didn’t think so. Would they be beating their unmuscular chests as “apostles” if torturous death was indicated?

They want the rose petals without the thorns. They want the pretty horsie without the manure.  

Wretches. Bums.

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34 minutes ago, MamaJunebug said:

QFT, @nokidsmom.  To think of the reaction Gregg (Definitely-Not-Teddy) Harris had to a critical customer as a sample of the reaction he had to his firstborn leaving the fold?  The mind reels.  

Sadly, I think Josh likely knows what this will do to his relationship with his dad.  

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3 hours ago, Antipatriarch said:

On a recent post over at SGM Survivors, several former SGMers pressed Brent strongly to answer whether he still believed this "apostleship" polity and practice was correct, and eventually he said clearly he still does. So in his eyes, he's writing with the authority of an apostle.

Brett's response is mind-boggling.

It comes down to "Well, a bunch of people were doing it wrong, and even I made some mistakes, but overall, SGM's polity and practice were great!"

No wonder he's so busy hectoring Josh and others. All he's really doing is defending the indefensible.

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2 hours ago, Loveday said:

More and more, I'm tempted to go down this hole. The other comments on the link you posted are making me curiouser and curiouser. Do we have enough ferrets to pull me back out if necessary? I'm afraid the hole is going to be pretty deep. 

Really deep. I've been brainstorming and I can't even come up with one good place where you could start. SGM Survivors, The Wartburg Watch, Spiritual Sounding Board, Thou Art The Man (and of course Brent's blog) have all covered pieces of this, but it's been going on for years and years now, and most of it peaked a decade ago. I don't know of anyone who's summarized it. It would take So. Much. Reading.

The bottom line, for me, is that a bunch of young guys with no seminary training jump-started their own Reformed/"apostolic"/complementarian/authoritarian "better way to do church" network, and lots of their followers paid a heavy price, especially women(wives) and children. Those blogs weren't named "SGM Survivors" and (older one) "SGM Refuge" for nothing. :(

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34 minutes ago, hoipolloi said:

Brett's response is mind-boggling.

It comes down to "Well, a bunch of people were doing it wrong, and even I made some mistakes, but overall, SGM's polity and practice were great!"

Yep.  Brent truly is mind-boggling in his arrogance, self-satisfaction, and self-righteousness.  

@Antipatriarch, I think both you and @hoipolloi have done a  very good job of summarizing the complicated story over your last few posts.  My spirit quails at the very idea of boiling it down to manageable proportions.

@Loveday, my first stop for information is often Julie Anne at Spiritual Sounding Board.  She has a good take on things and does her best to verify facts.  Then Wartburg Watch.  Trying to read Brent Detwiler is like wading through scripturally polluted sticky molasses. Sadly, on this one there is no easy starting place.

35 minutes ago, nokidsmom said:

Sadly, I think Josh likely knows what this will do to his relationship with his dad.  

On a more positive note, perhaps Gregg Harris will not react with rage and shunning.  We can suspect he will react badly, but we don't know.  I don't think Gregg has spoken publicly yet.

Alternatively, perhaps Joshua Harris has considered his options, understood the risks, and is perfectly OK with being shunned by Dad.  Sometimes cutting off, or being cut off by, a toxic relative is a very good thing.  And you can then get on with living your life.

I'm more interested in how Josh's siblings react.  I think being cut off by them could potentially hurt him a lot more than Daddy rejecting him.

Joshua is 44 years old.  He's been independent of Gregg for a long time and they lived at opposite ends of the country for years.  He seems to have developed a support group to counteract the vilification from the Greggs and Brent Detwilers of the world.

I hope his family do not reject him.  But even if they do, it is not the end of the world. 

Josh is not a vulnerable teenager any more.  He has friends and many strangers reaching out to him.

Perhaps I have a rather unsentimental, if not cold, attitude towards this.  Mr P and I both had difficult and domineering very religious fathers.  They disapproved of our life choices and our rejection of their respective religious beliefs.  We were both financially independent of tour fathers as soon as we turned 18, and neither of us can think of a single occasion when we received emotional support from either.  

We distanced ourselves from our fathers, and set firm boundaries, although we were never formally estranged.  We stayed in touch solely for the sakes of our respective mothers.  My father died when I was 35.  My reaction was not grief.  It was relief.  It made it so much easier to connect properly with my mother again.

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1 hour ago, Antipatriarch said:

The bottom line, for me, is that a bunch of young guys with no seminary training jump-started their own Reformed/"apostolic"/complementarian/authoritarian "better way to do church" network, and lots of their followers paid a heavy price, especially women(wives) and children. Those blogs weren't named "SGM Survivors" and (older one) "SGM Refuge" for nothing. :(

As good a summary as any. SGM has an ugly history, unredeemed by anything or anyone. In addition to CJ Mahaney, Josh Harris and Brent Detwiler are significant parts of that history. This article from several years ago also has good overviews of what happened at SGM.

CJ's role in these things goes back over 40 years, when he was one of many then-young men pulled into charismatic Christian stuff in the mid-1970s along with his then-buddy, Larry Tomczak. CJ threw Larry under the bus by the late 1990s though they've reportedly since reconciled. This blog post has details, some of them culled from Brent's "archives."

Of course, Larry probably belongs under some bus, given his anti-LGBTQforced birth views. He has also always been a cheerleader for correction discipline spanking child-beating.

If you can stomach it, SGM Survivors has a YouTube channel with now-long-purged SGM videos, including this hagiography of CJ as narrated by Josh Harris.

ETA: Here is Josh's announcement of his impending departure from CLC. Note that this happened years after the sex abuse allegations first surfaced. The age-old questions remain: What did Josh know and when did he know it?

 

Edited by hoipolloi
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Yep.  The more Brett points at Josh, the more I’m convinced he’s trying very hard to keep the focus off himself

But as BigMamaJB often said, “point your finger at me and three are pointing back at you.”

Id like to think Gregg & Josh will be copacetic but until we see, I’ve been reading up on Theo. Roosevelt, who I always liked, probably because of his daughter Alice.

Just in how TR treated his children - especially his daughters - and his politics as loosely described here, and until we find out that Gregg has become an OK Guy, I feel pretty confident in saying,

”I’ve studied Teddy Roosevelt, Teddy Roosevelt is something of a hero of mine, and you, Gregg Harris, are no Teddy Roosevelt.”

Hee!

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1 hour ago, hoipolloi said:

This article from several years ago also has good overviews of what happened at SGM.

That one is really good (gives you the broad timeline and outline); thanks for sharing it!

It doesn't go into much detail about the Mahaney/Tomczak rift in the early days. Mahaney actually tried to blackmail Tomczak by threatening to reveal some "sins" his son Justin had confessed earlier. See "Mahaney the blackmailer" in this article. This, to me, is a perfect example of SGM's system of control (which the Washingtonian article alludes to): People were encouraged to confess their "sins" and then those confessions were used against them later if they ever questioned the leadership or refused to toe the line. It happened again and again and again. It's the mark of a cult, IMO, and not the only one.

That same article I'm linking to at Thou Art The Man (the whole thing is worth reading) also talks about a hush fund that was set up to pay off an SGM pastor, to forestall him joining the lawsuit. And Mark Prater is still spinning, stalling, and stonewalling on the sex abuse scandal, even now. He and those like him care more about keeping their org. intact than they do about the victims. It's disgusting.

The only (small) consolation is that the now-renamed Sovereign Grace Churches (SGC) is much smaller than SGM was at its height, and Mahaney is pastoring a much smaller church and isn't nearly the big name in Reformed circles as he once was. He tends to duck out of speaking at conferences when the scandals resurface (with faux humility, "so that I won't be a distraction"). Uh huh. ?

Edited by Antipatriarch
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45 minutes ago, Palimpsest said:

On a more positive note, perhaps Gregg Harris will not react with rage and shunning.  We can suspect he will react badly, but we don't know.  I don't think Gregg has spoken publicly yet.

Entirely possible.   Dad could be one of those people who thinks it's OK to shun and rage so long that it's other people but when it hits close to home, it's a whole different ball game.

47 minutes ago, Palimpsest said:

I'm more interested in how Josh's siblings react.  I think being cut off by them could potentially hurt him a lot more than Daddy rejecting him.

Agree with this, based somewhat on personal experience.   No, my family did not cut me off over my life choices but the potential was certainly there and I always felt more concerned about estrangement with my siblings vs. estrangement with my parents.  

1 hour ago, Palimpsest said:

Perhaps I have a rather unsentimental, if not cold, attitude towards this.  Mr P and I both had difficult and domineering very religious fathers.  They disapproved of our life choices and our rejection of their respective religious beliefs

No, doesn't sound cold at all.   My dad disapproved of my life choices, which btw were hardly radical, but the biggest thing for him is I stopped attending church when I moved out.  I didn't reject my beliefs per se, but the fact I wasn't going to the same place every Sunday morning was a big point of disapproval.   

 

 

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On 7/26/2019 at 6:56 PM, bea said:



Who am I missing? I know there’s others whose God-ordained love stories blew up like an IED.

This is one from a few years back.  I heard the story of Pat and Jill Williams, who wrote a book called Rekindled and who were featured on a Focus on the Family broadcast.  Pat was the manager of the Philadelphia '76'ers; more recently, he's managed the Orlando Magic.  

Pat and Jill's marriage was in serious trouble to the point where Jill told him, I hate this marriage.  It's boring me to death. 

Pat bought a book by a Dr. Ed Wheat, Love Life For Every Married Couple, and began applying its principles.  (I read the book before I was married and to be honest, I cannot remember a lot of the content.)  He won Jill back.  They ended up adopting a bunch of children from overseas so that they ended up having a total of 18 children (biological and adopted combined).

And then they wound up getting a divorce when they moved to Orlando.

I'm not sure what happened, but I think, from skimming through the beginning of a book that Pat Williams wrote after the divorce, that he fell back into some old habits after moving to Orlando and this time, Jill was having none of it.

This may not exactly fall into a "God-ordained love story" but it is a story about how a marriage that was supposedly reconciled eventually fell apart again.  

37 minutes ago, Antipatriarch said:

People were encouraged to confess their "sins" and then those confessions were used against them later if they ever questioned the leadership or refused to toe the line. It happened again and again and again. It's the mark of a cult, IMO, and not the only one.?

Same thing happened in my group of churches.  I don't recall being confronted with my old sins, but in later years, people being studied with were encouraged to make a "sin list" before they were baptized and afterwards, if they didn't "toe the line", those lists were used against them.

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7 hours ago, Antipatriarch said:

Incredibly, Brent actually believes he is, literally, an apostle. The original leaders of PDI (which later became SGM) believe that apostleship didn't end with the N.T. They created an "Apostolic Team" at the top. The pastors of all the churches in the SGM network were accountable to the A Team. The A Team was only accountable to themselves. They were strongly authoritative in the way they led; questioning the leadership was discouraged (e.g. "sinfully craving answers"). Yeah, I can't see any ways that could go wrong.

On a recent post over at SGM Survivors, several former SGMers pressed Brent strongly to answer whether he still believed this "apostleship" polity and practice was correct, and eventually he said clearly he still does. So in his eyes, he's writing with the authority of an apostle.

I wonder if he might be part of the New Apostolic Reformation  .   https://www.gotquestions.org/New-Apostolic-Reformation.html , http://www.apologeticsindex.org/2977-new-apostolic-reformation-overview

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Thanks to everyone who has posted links and synopses of all this. I think I'm going to gingerly pop a toe or two into these murky waters, maybe start with the Washingtonian article and then zip over to SSB  or SGM survivors for a bit.

*takes deep breath* 

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Bruce Gerenser just posted this on fb so I dashed over here for an update.  Bruce Gerenser was an Independent Fundamentalist Baptist preacher for most of his adult life until he "lost his faith."  He now considers himself a secular humanist.  Interestingly, he and his wife both began doubting at the same time, and have followed the same path on their beliefs.  Her parents and other immediate relatives were/are hard-core Baptist ministers. 

Bruce has a lot of interesting things to say about navigating the Post-IFB waters, and dealing with Christian evangelicals/fundamentalists of various stripes.  Bruce blogs at The Life and Times of Bruce Gerencser,  One Man's Journey From Eternity to Here and here is his insightful post on Joshua Harris:  Josh Harris Renounces Christianity: Will Acronyms Send You to Hell?

Edited by Howl
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35 minutes ago, Loveday said:

Thanks to everyone who has posted links and synopses of all this. I think I'm going to gingerly pop a toe or two into these murky waters, maybe start with the Washingtonian article and then zip over to SSB  or SGM survivors for a bit.

*takes deep breath* 

Love, and readying the rescue ferrets. They bring supplies and guide you out safely.

:ferret::ferret:

I do need to know what they need to carry.  Please let me know.  So, sweet or savory snacks and alcoholic or soft drinks?  And caffeine is always available. :)

 

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59 minutes ago, Howl said:

Bruce Gerenser just posted this on fb so I dashed over here for an update.  Bruce Gerenser was an Independent Fundamentalist Baptist preacher for most of his adult life until he "lost his faith."  He now considers himself a secular humanist.  Interestingly, he and his wife both began doubting at the same time, and have followed the same path on their beliefs.  Her parents and other immediate relatives were/are hard-core Baptist ministers. 

Bruce has a lot of interesting things to say about navigating the Post-IFB waters, and dealing with Christian evangelicals/fundamentalists of various stripes.  Bruce blogs at The Life and Times of Bruce Gerencser,  One Man's Journey From Eternity to Here and here is his insightful post on Joshua Harris:  Josh Harris Renounces Christianity: Will Acronyms Send You to Hell?

Yay, Bruce!  And thank you @Howl.

I particularly like this bit. My bolding.

Quote

For readers who live outside of the Evangelical bubble, you might not be aware that Southern Baptists, Fundamentalist Calvinists, and other Evangelical groups are currently embroiled in controversies over social justice (definition of social justice warrior) and the recognition and acceptance of LGBTQ people. On one hand, it is hilarious to watch saved, sanctified, filled-with-the-Holy-Ghost “followers” of Jesus devour one another, fighting amongst themselves like toddlers over toys. On the other hand, however, people are being hurt by these skirmishes. While I have mixed emotions about Josh Harris and I think he has much to atone for, I do sympathize with him as he attempts to move on with his life post-Evangelicalism. It remains to be seen to where Harris ends up. He may end up an atheist in the style of Bart Campolo, or he may follow a path similar to that of Rob Bell. Who knows? It’s Harris’ life, and he’s free to follow the path wherever it leads.

I also think Josh Harris has much to atone for.  Goodness knows what he will do now.

But, after nit-picking Joshua's progress and being incredibly skeptical about it, he did make a giant step forward last week.   That was a REAL apology.  FINALLY!  It convinced me. 

Still, he has more things to unpack.  And atone for.

I take no joy in the collapse of Josh's marriage.  I take no joy in his crisis of faith.  I have compassion.

But I watch with extreme interest to see where he will go next.

 

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6 hours ago, nokidsmom said:

Sadly, I think Josh likely knows what this will do to his relationship with his dad.  

I think he probably does.  But it may also be that he thinks it's worth it, if he is freed from the shackles he has had to deal with all his life.  To be able to be his true self, it may be that he realizes he has to risk cutting ties with his father.  Which is sad, but it might be his only choice to be himself - who/whatever his true self is, he does have the right to be himself.

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1 hour ago, Palimpsest said:

Love, and readying the rescue ferrets. They bring supplies and guide you out safely.

:ferret::ferret:

I do need to know what they need to carry.  Please let me know.  So, sweet or savory snacks and alcoholic or soft drinks?  And caffeine is always available. :)

 

Ooh, I forgot that ferrets bring customized supplies! Sweet, for sure! Lots of chocolate, please! :pb_smile:  And my drink of choice is Coca Cola, although I may at some point have to send up a flare with a note requesting something far stronger. :pb_lol:

:romance-adore:

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4 hours ago, Howl said:

Bruce has a lot of interesting things to say about navigating the Post-IFB waters, and dealing with Christian evangelicals/fundamentalists of various stripes.  Bruce blogs at The Life and Times of Bruce Gerencser,  One Man's Journey From Eternity to Here and here is his insightful post on Joshua Harris:  Josh Harris Renounces Christianity: Will Acronyms Send You to Hell?

I gotta say: at 70 (nearly), I’ve never heard this kind of reaction from Christians of my acquaintance when one of us  “goes astray.”

The responses I’ve heard are along the lines, “This is sad. We gotta pray for them. Don’t turn them away. Be loving. Witness God’s love so the Holy Spirit can work in their heart and mind.”

Just realizing what a lucky person I’ve been. Wondering how small the bubble is of actually, y’know, *loving* Christian response. 

Hoping maybe those of is who take a loving, gentle attitude are just less inclined to opine on SM.  

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On 7/27/2019 at 11:30 PM, MamaJunebug said:

Holy shyte, Gregg Harris is foul!!!

Big man tattled on homeschooling rival

He and one of his sons now operate Roosevelt’s Terrariums in Oregon. I’m thinking the only reason for the Roosevelt name is that Gregg fancies himself a Teddy look-alike. In any case, some of his patrons display cleavage in the bteastal area. And Gregg includes the sordid shots in publicity. 

For the life of me, I can’t figure how how to link it. Just google “yelp - Roosevelt’s  Terrariums Portland” and you’ll see. 

 Also: if Josh does turn out to be light in his loafers, woe betide his relationship with the patriarch. Gregg rejected children from gay parents as members of his home schooling community. Yep: punished the children for the sins [sic] of the parents. Despicable. 

Some commenter somewhere (Facebook? Instagram? A blog post?) linked to Dr. Raymond Moore’s cautionary letter about the four pillars of Christian homeschooling in which he pointed out Gregg Harris’s unChristlike actions. Flat out said he ravished/ raped (in a business sense) his former employer.

Sorry, I don’t remember where I saw it, but maybe someone else does.

edit: found the “white paper” if not the place where I originally heard about it.

https://a2zhomeschooling.com/thoughts_opinions_home_school/ravage_home_education_p2/

Quote From one of the cover letters:

“As the homeschool movement’s senior professional, I have tried for 25 years to provide guidance as needed and as requested. Eleven years ago Gregg Harris raped our Foundation program in the crudest, boldest, most dishonest spree ever. Then in Arizona, he began splitting our hard-won state coalitions we had build over 15 years by introducing un-American religious discrimination. You helped bring Gregg to the conciliation table, but he came in with totally false personal charges which didn’t heal the rape but did end in a crucial agreement: No one was again to organize in a state that had an established organization without the counsel and approval of that organization. Then Sue Welch took over, with not only Gregg’s cooperation, but also yours, as leaders can easily prove.”

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@Palimpsest and @nokidsmom, I think it was you who wondered aloud about his family’s reaction.

One of his brothers (not the ones in ministry) got rather hot under the collar in responding to Instagram comments under Josh’s posts. Pretty much told people to stop maligning his family. I’ve been told (ah, gossip) he’s something of a black sheep.

I’ve also heard that the rest of his family are “very sad” over this situation.

Getting on the idle speculation bus to wonder if some of the timing of the breakaway had to do with his youngest sibling reaching adulthood, meaning his father couldn’t cut off Josh’s ability to contact him. This may be presumptuous of me, but I know other fundie families where the younger siblings were basically hostages to the older ones’ “good behavior.” And older ones who walked away were cut off from contact with kids they helped raise. Tragic.

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@Howl - thanks for bringing up Bruce Gerenscer. I’d not heard of him before but I’ve been enjoying his blog for the last half hour or so. ❤️

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6 hours ago, refugee said:

“As the homeschool movement’s senior professional, I have tried for 25 years to provide guidance as needed and as requested. Eleven years ago Gregg Harris raped our Foundation program in the crudest, boldest, most dishonest spree ever. Then in Arizona, he began splitting our hard-won state coalitions we had build over 15 years by introducing un-American religious discrimination. You helped bring Gregg to the conciliation table, but he came in with totally false personal charges which didn’t heal the rape but did end in a crucial agreement: No one was again to organize in a state that had an established organization without the counsel and approval of that organization. Then Sue Welch took over, with not only Gregg’s cooperation, but also yours, as leaders can easily prove.”

Does anyone else think that that's a completely inappropriate use of the term 'rape'? 

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  • Coconut Flan changed the title to Josh Harris Announced "I Kissed Dating Goodbye" Was Discontinued

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