Josie and Kelton 3: Living in the White Evangelical Bubble

[sleepy_doggos]

I grew up with the family that owns Hobby Lobby. They are legitimately very kind people and hard workers, but I wouldn't choose to work for their company based on things I have heard from employees (not all their employees, but definitely ones below middle management). They, like Josie and Kelton, also live in the white Evangelical bubble and unfortunately have all the behaviors/prejudices/shortsightedness that travel with that. I chose to exit that bubble but most in that circle have chosen to stay in it.

 

 

[formergothardite]

28 minutes ago, sleepy_doggos said:

They are legitimately very kind people and hard workers,

They are kind towards certain people. They are extremely unkind to people who do not fit inside their narrow box. 

They also participated in lying to smuggle stolen goods into America. They called their stolen artifacts tile samples to avoid detection, they knew they were doing something wrong. They had an adviser telling them they were doing things wrong in buying artifacts, but they ignored it and became the rich white Americans who would buy things without asking any questions. These aren't good, upstanding people, These are corrupt people who were perfectly happy to fill their museum with stolen items. 

[sleepy_doggos]

They are kind towards certain people. They are extremely unkind to people who do not fit inside their narrow box. 
They also participated in lying to smuggle stolen goods into America. They called their stolen artifacts tile samples to avoid detection, they knew they were doing something wrong. They had an adviser telling them they were doing things wrong in buying artifacts, but they ignored it and became the rich white Americans who would buy things without asking any questions. These aren't good, upstanding people, These are corrupt people who were perfectly happy to fill their museum with stolen items. 

Your understanding is true and nowhere did I say it was untrue, in fact in the rest of my post I supported that position. That doesn't change the fact that they were kind to me and hard-working people. Humans can be more than one thing at a time. That's what makes us complex and interesting.

[HerNameIsBuffy]

I have a Hobby Lobby about a mile from my house and every Christmas, despite leaving everything to the last minute and being completely frazzled, I drive across town to Michaels.  I just can't line their pockets, no matter how small my purchases would be.

'

[formergothardite]

6 minutes ago, sleepy_doggos said:

That doesn't change the fact that they were kind to me

You said they were legitimately kind, they might have been kind to you, but they are not legitimately kind people. People who only treat with kindness the folks who are exactly like them and attempt to oppress all others are not kind.

I view  the Greens as not nice people. They used their fundamental religious beliefs to deny medical care to employees. They use their money to help fund some of the most extreme right wing politicians in hopes that they can eventually oppress all those who are not like them. They give funds to help push some of the most extremely awful GOP causes. Causes that will hurt many, many people.  They also attended many IBLP conferences and helped Gothard get the Big Sandy ALERT property. At one point the owner invited Gothard to a store to lecture employees about the evils of birth control and to hand out IBLP materials. 

Of course people are complex, Jill Rod. is said to be super nice in person, that doesn't actually mean she is a nice person. I'm sure the Greens were very nice to you and would be nice to people they don't agree with in a very superficial way. 

28 minutes ago, HerNameIsBuffy said:

I just can't line their pockets, no matter how small my purchases would be.

I will drive out of my way to go to Michael's. I'm not giving them a dime. 

[sleepy_doggos]

I will drive out of my way to go to Michael's. I'm not giving them a dime. 

I am not disagreeing with you that what they stand for is oppressive, and thank you for your insight about what causes they give to and their support of Gothard. I did not know that.
It still doesn't change that people at complex and can be many things at once. Experiences do matter, and my experiences with the family are not invalidated by that knowledge.

[HerNameIsBuffy]

27 minutes ago, sleepy_doggos said:

Experiences do matter, and my experiences with the family are not invalidated by that knowledge.

She acknowledged your experiences.  But she also, rightly, pointed out that because they were kind to do doesn't make them "legitimately very kind people and that's more than just semantics.

Take the microcosm of FJ for example.  If I was genuinely nice to people who were like me - white American women whose beliefs I approve of...those women could well think I was a nice person.

But if, as I did that (and it could be genuine in that maybe I'm nice because in this hypothetical I genuinely like people like me) I was unkind to minorities, people who live in other parts of the world, or people whose spiritual beliefs are different than mine...whatever it is that makes them "other" to me...

If I wasn't kind to those people, if I went out of my way to lobby behind the scenes to put rules in place that would oppress them so they would feel less welcome here, if I unfairly targeted them with warnings and harassment while letting people like me break the rules...then by definition I would NOT be a "legitimately very kind person."

I would be a hateful bigot.  Despite being legitimately kind to those I felt made the cut.

The huge problem is FJ is a website, if people didn't feel welcome here they could write me off as a crazy bigot and go somewhere where they are welcome and treated fairly.

But the problem with powerful people like this is they want to oppress at a societal level.  Through our government.  If they get their way people will be oppressed and unwelcome in their very country...there is no closing a browser window on that.

So yes, I have no doubt they were nice to you, but I absolutely reject the notion of that making them nice people.

Hitler loved dogs and was kind to animals...that didn't make him any less dangerous.

[sleepy_doggos]

 

 

 

 

She acknowledged your experiences.  But she also, rightly, pointed out that because they were kind to do doesn't make them "legitimately very kind people and that's more than just semantics. Take the microcosm of FJ for example.  If I was genuinely nice to people who were like me - white American women whose beliefs I approve of...those women could well think I was a nice person.

But if, as I did that (and it could be genuine in that maybe I'm nice because in this hypothetical I genuinely like people like me) I was unkind to minorities, people who live in other parts of the world, or people whose spiritual beliefs are different than mine...whatever it is that makes them "other" to me...

If I wasn't kind to those people, if I went out of my way to lobby behind the scenes to put rules in place that would oppress them so they would feel less welcome here, if I unfairly targeted them with warnings and harassment while letting people like me break the rules...then by definition I would NOT be a "legitimately very kind person."

I would be a hateful bigot.  Despite being legitimately kind to those I felt made the cut.

The huge problem is FJ is a website, if people didn't feel welcome here they could write me off as a crazy bigot and go somewhere where they are welcome and treated fairly.

But the problem with powerful people like this is they want to oppress at a societal level.  Through our government.  If they get their way people will be oppressed and unwelcome in their very country...there is no closing a browser window on that.

So yes, I have no doubt they were nice to you, but I absolutely reject the notion of that making them nice people.

Hitler loved dogs and was kind to animals...that didn't make him any less dangerous.

 

 

I did not say they were legitimately kind people (not in the second post. In my first post I said they were kind people). I said they were legitimately kind 'to me'. If we are talking semantics then I think that should be noted. Ultimately I am not claiming they are good for society or good for humans other than myself. I am just saying that it's not all black and white when it comes to human behavior.

I am not offended at all by[mention=11620]formergothardite[/mention] or yourself or anyone else having a different view of the family than myself based on views, knowledge, experiences, etc. and I'm not trying to convince you that they're something you think they're not. It's completely valid and I share much of the view. I just can't personally completely write them off as hateful people, full stop, when I have experienced something other than that.

 

ETA if I wrote off everyone who had those views at some point I would have to write off my former self, and I can't do that because I turned into the me now who knows a bit more than I did then. Even a seed of kindness can turn into something a little more true and a little more full.

 

ETA 2 I reread my posts and see that I did indeed say they are legitimately kind people. I apologize for my mistake above, and I want to reiterate I do not think their kindness to me erases all of the negative things that they do and influence.

[SilverBeach]

No to shiplap! And open concept! And granite counters (I prefer quartz). And Hobby Lobby! Warm, clean, comfortable, and not cluttered are my decorating requirements. I don't care for a lot of prints and I prefer muted colors because I need to relax my mind at home, I'm kind of high strung.

[sleepy_doggos]

No to shiplap! And open concept! And granite counters (I prefer quartz). And Hobby Lobby! Warm, clean, comfortable, and not cluttered are my decorating requirements. I don't care for a lot of prints and I prefer muted colors because I need to relax my mind at home, I'm kind of high strung.

Agreed! I like cozy, small rooms, not echoey big giant one room houses!

[sixcatatty]

On 10/23/2018 at 9:51 PM, ModestisHottest said:

Just wanted to add this to the previous discussion.  I live in Mississippi and people ask where you go to church all.the.time. (I'm originally from Pennsylvania so that definitely has taken some getting used to.)

I live in Kentucky. While I do have a Walk of Faith, it is just that--mine--and something I consider not for public consumption.  I also have an auto-immune disorder which has damaged most of my C-spine and is now working on my T-spine and lumbar region; an unsuccessful left shoulder replacement, a right shoulder with no rotator cuff, two bad hips and two bad feet. I'm a public defender who works 45+ hours a week banging on a computer keyboard to write criminal appeals. I've learned--the hard way--that when the hip says you must rest, I don't go sit in the pew and hang my feet off and when the neck/shoulders say you must rest, I do that.

My husband and I were at a small group meeting a few Sundays ago. I got asked why I didn't come to church more often. I came very close to going full sarcasm on the man and asking if he thought my being in a wheelchair to get into his house and sit at the dinner table AND having trouble sitting comfortably in the wing chair in their living room after dinner had anything to do with it. I said I make it as often as I can and bean dipped......into a damn Kavanaugh discussion where I blasted him (don't ask my opinion if you don't want to hear it).

I'm still deciding whether I'll go to the next one on November 10.

[QuiverDance]

7 hours ago, HerNameIsBuffy said:

I have a Hobby Lobby about a mile from my house and every Christmas, despite leaving everything to the last minute and being completely frazzled, I drive across town to Michaels.  I just can't line their pockets, no matter how small my purchases would be.

'

Same here. I will never shop there again. Never ever ever. 

[Divemaster01]

13 hours ago, HerNameIsBuffy said:

I have a Hobby Lobby about a mile from my house and every Christmas, despite leaving everything to the last minute and being completely frazzled, I drive across town to Michaels.  I just can't line their pockets, no matter how small my purchases would be.

'

I just went to the Michaels in my city a couple of days ago. The funny part, they are in the same strip mall as the Michaels! ?

[LawsonBatesEgo]

Genuinely kind people do not fight to withhold medication from people with less means than they have simply because they disagree with them.

[formergothardite]

11 hours ago, sleepy_doggos said:

I just can't personally completely write them off as hateful people, full stop, when I have experienced something other than that.

Even though you are aware of how much hate and harm they have caused and continue to cause, you don't want to view that as hateful because they were kind to you?

At my grandfather's funeral there were so many people who spoke about his kindness, how he would give the shirt off his back to help people, how he was a hard worker who was a pillar of the community. My grandfather, much like the Green family, was kind to only people just like him. For people outside of his bubble they remember the harm he did and some of them rightly viewed him as a monster. He was politically active back before and during the Civil Rights era and he did as much as he could to oppress people of color. My grandfather was not a kind person, he was hateful. He was downright mean to people who were not white. He showed no empathy or compassion for entire groups of people. The Greens are no different than my grandfather, I don't see why they should be considered not hateful just because they were kind to you? The have hurt and continue to hurt massive amounts of people and show no kindness or compassion to those who they hurt. Good people don't only care about people who are like them and attempt to hurt all others. 

[sleepy_doggos]

Even though you are aware of how much hate and harm they have caused and continue to cause, you don't want to view that as hateful because they were kind to you?

At my grandfather's funeral there were so many people who spoke about his kindness, how he would give the shirt off his back to help people, how he was a hard worker who was a pillar of the community. My grandfather, much like the Green family, was kind to only people just like him. For people outside of his bubble they remember the harm he did and some of them rightly viewed him as a monster. He was politically active back before and during the Civil Rights era and he did as much as he could to oppress people of color. My grandfather was not a kind person, he was hateful. He was downright mean to people who were not white. He showed no empathy or compassion for entire groups of people. The Greens are no different than my grandfather, I don't see why they should be considered not hateful just because they were kind to you? The have hurt and continue to hurt massive amounts of people and show no kindness or compassion to those who they hurt. Good people don't only care about people who are like them and attempt to hurt all others. 

I stated I am not trying to change your mind about the family. Why are you trying to change mine? I have also stated I do not agree with what they stand for and think it is harmful and oppressive. Why do you care what I think about the family on a personal level?

 

[Carm_88]

15 hours ago, SilverBeach said:

No to shiplap! And open concept! And granite counters (I prefer quartz). And Hobby Lobby! Warm, clean, comfortable, and not cluttered are my decorating requirements. I don't care for a lot of prints and I prefer muted colors because I need to relax my mind at home, I'm kind of high strung.

No open concept! If I'm in my living room I don't want to see the dirty dishes in the kitchen!

[Bobology]

As writer Dave Barry (I believe) once wrote... "If your friend is a nice person but is not nice to the waiter, then your friend is not a nice person" <paraphrased>

A few years ago I vowed never to give money to a Chickalay (grandson's name for it.) But one time we were at a mall early and he was hungry and it was Chick-Fil-A  or a cookie counter. I took him to Chickalay and he liked it. After months of pondering I decided that just because I happened to know the founders were hateful, I could still go there in decent conscience; not 'good', just decent. I have no idea how the clerk at my local grocery store, or the owners/employers/etc of the tire store and so on, spend their money. Any time I spend my money any where I could be fueling someone's ability to finally purchase fouly-used weapons, or child porn, or lots of things that are humanly and morally 'wrong' to me. I spend money where I need to, though I do realize the extent of the hatred and oppression that gobs of money can cause. For the record, I rarely give money to Hobby Lobby or WalMart or Chickalay. But if I were caught and needed to, I would.

[formergothardite]

1 hour ago, sleepy_doggos said:

I stated I am not trying to change your mind about the family. Why are you trying to change mine?

It is a discussion. I'm trying to understand why you view them as kind when they do so many terrible things? It sounds like you are essentially saying that no one is a bad person if they at least do nice things for one person. I could be misunderstanding you, but that is the ramifications of insisting the Greens are good people no matter how many people they hurt just because they are nice to certain people. 

[sleepy_doggos]

It is a discussion. I'm trying to understand why you view them as kind when they do so many terrible things? It sounds like you are essentially saying that no one is a bad person if they at least do nice things for one person. I could be misunderstanding you, but that is the ramifications of insisting the Greens are good people no matter how many people they hurt just because they are nice to certain people. 

I never used the terms good people or bad people. Those are terms which were added to the discussion by others. I am saying that people are a conglomeration of their behaviors, backgrounds, experiences, and choices, and that due to my personal experiences with the family I do not view them as _entirely_ hateful.
Honestly if I were to view people as all hateful who believed in the same things they do, I'd have to write off my parents, grandparents, some of my siblings, many of my friends, all of my childhood and university, many of my classmates, some of my former boyfriends, and myself at many points in my life as baseline hateful people. I cannot do that. I think that we all have a mixture of good and bad behaviors that affect our societies in good and bad ways.

[formergothardite]

1 minute ago, sleepy_doggos said:

I cannot do that. I think that we all have a mixture of good and bad behaviors that affect our societies in good and bad ways.

I agree we do, No one is entirely hateful. Even Trump is nice to some people. Even serial killers are nice to some people. But in general, people who do things as terrible as the Greens do shouldn't be viewed as not hateful just because they are nice occasionally to the select few. 

Are the Greens entirely hateful? No. Are they hateful and dangerous and hurt many, many people? Yes. They aren't good people. It actually impacts all of us in society when people start to accept that those who oppress and hurt are good. 

[melon]

When we were looking and this house,Mr Melon knew that I loved and wanted this house.

We don't have ship lap,not really an open concept,I don't care much for the open concept,either.We do have a window on the wall between our family/living room and kitchen.I have mixed feelings about it.It can be great if I can't wait to watch something on TV,because I can cook or clean up the kitchen,and sort of watch whatever on TV.

But,yes...my dirty dishes are visible from the family/living room.I just loved..love this house,and was willing to go with the window.

But,we both didn't want the washer/dryer in the garage.Deal breaker for us.Yes,I am lazy,and did not want to go into the garage to do laundry.Mr Melon actually agreed.

[sleepy_doggos]

I agree we do, No one is entirely hateful. Even Trump is nice to some people. Even serial killers are nice to some people. But in general, people who do things as terrible as the Greens do shouldn't be viewed as not hateful just because they are nice occasionally to the select few. 
Are the Greens entirely hateful? No. Are they hateful and dangerous and hurt many, many people? Yes. They aren't good people. It actually impacts all of us in society when people start to accept that those who oppress and hurt are good. 

I think that as long as I speak out against behaviors I believe are wrong and vote for what I believe is right, I can't say that an opinion I hold about a family I knew as casual acquaintances growing up has a large effect on society. Or certainly at least not larger than my vote and my dollars and my conversations with people who believe differently than I do.

[HerNameIsBuffy]

Just now, sleepy_doggos said:

I think that as long as I speak out against behaviors I believe are wrong and vote for what I believe is right, I can't say that an opinion I hold about a family I knew as casual acquaintances growing up has a large effect on society. Or certainly at least not larger than my vote and my dollars and my conversations with people who believe differently than I do.

It's not just about you.  When people separate the harm people like this cause from who they are as people just because they have some redeeming qualities it allows them to continue to flourish unabated.

No, not your opinion specifically...but when you espouse that opinion on a public forum people who know how harmful that is will refute it publicly.  I personally don't care about changing your mind, I think you have made it very clear the kind of pass you give people....but to let your words sit here unchallenged to be read by all the people lurking now and in the future could make them seem more innocuous than they are.

And yes, it is very hard to look at your family and social circle if they are filled with hateful beliefs and confront that.  It's much easier to compartmentalize it, as if they are somehow super complex people who are capable of dichotomous feelings.  

They aren't that complex.  Even the most dangerous people can be lovely to some.

And yes we ALL have good and bad behaviors...but once the line is crossed and deliberate oppression and hate is being actively practiced it is no longer part of the normal human experience and it's insulting to most thinking people to imply that it is.

[sleepy_doggos]

I personally don't care about changing your mind, I think you have made it very clear the kind of pass you give people....but to let your words sit here unchallenged to be read by all the people lurking now and in the future could make them seem more innocuous than they are.
And yes, it is very hard to look at your family and social circle if they are filled with hateful beliefs and confront that.  It's much easier to compartmentalize it, as if they are somehow super complex people who are capable of dichotomous feelings.  
They aren't that complex.  Even the most dangerous people can be lovely to some.
And yes we ALL have good and bad behaviors...but once the line is crossed and deliberate oppression and hate is being actively practiced it is no longer part of the normal human experience and it's insulting to most thinking people to imply that it is.

That's fair. And what's complicated for me is that I don't disagree with you in many ways, I do think that many of their behaviors are wrong and destructive as I have tried to make clear, I just can't go whole hog on thinking the people in my life are fundamentally hateful because of things I personally disagree with and do agree with for on behalf of others. And yes, I think that lurkers and readers should be able to take a step back and look at the people in their lives and consider it. I just can't do stay a decently healthy person and forget influences In my life that were positive for me simultaneously.
In fact at lunch today the family member of mine who works for Hobby Lobby was talking about how they have been positively impacted by their job there. In my world right now, I can't make it as black and white as you say is correct. Others can, like yourself and@formergothardite, and I respect that. I simply cannot.