Jinjer 45: First a Preacher then a Seminarian

[Shadoewolf]

Oldest (18, girl) is very short in the torso and Youngest (10, boy) is long in the torso and legs. They both love Pokemon, Kingdom Hearts and anime so they often share shirts. But then they both like gender neutral colors like black, grey and dark red. I'll let my son wear pretty much whatever he wants so long as it's weather appropriate. He's never asked for anything that would be considered "girly" though and I don't know how Hubby would react if he wanted a dress. I'm not the dress type at all. Give me jeans or swishy pants, a t-shirt and sneakers and I'm happy. I HATE wearing heels. Middle wolfie though is my girly girl and I'm dreading her starting high school next year with Homecoming dresses and stuff. 

[louisa05]

Androcentrism = Praising boys who like things that are sort of feminine but not really while praising girls who like so-called "gender neutral colors" and "dreading" shopping with a girl who likes dresses and other traditionally feminine things. 

Just stop it, people. It's actually okay to like traditionally feminine things and it's even okay to be female in both biology and gender. 

[SapphireSlytherin]

19 minutes ago, louisa05 said:

Just stop it, people. It's actually okay to like traditionally feminine things and it's even okay to be female in both biology and gender. 

Thank you for the most amazing post --possibly EVER-- on FJ. Thank you, thank you, thank you! 

[SorenaJ]

1 hour ago, louisa05 said:

Just stop it, people. It's actually okay to like traditionally feminine things and it's even okay to be female in both biology and gender. 

Has anyone said anything to the contrary? 

[louisa05]

1 minute ago, SorenaJ said:

Has anyone said anything to the contrary? 

There is indirect androcentrism all over this thread. It's a constant on much of the forum. Just look above my post at the mother dreading dealing with a daughter who (heaven forbid!) likes "girly" things. As if that's a bad quality. 

[Rachel333]

People have this idea that non-feminine appearing girls and women are praised for it and that just isn't true. Femininity is still rewarded in girls and women. It drives me nuts to see people praising media for portraying strong feminine women -- lots of "it's so wonderful to see them show that a woman can be strong and still look feminine"--  like it's something unusual when non-feminine women in media are incredibly rare. The problem is that being female at all is looked down on and anything girls and women do is subjected to criticism.

[SorenaJ]

7 minutes ago, louisa05 said:

There is indirect androcentrism all over this thread. It's a constant on much of the forum. Just look above my post at the mother dreading dealing with a daughter who (heaven forbid!) likes "girly" things. As if that's a bad quality. 

Alright. I read that more as an annoyance of having to have stuff in your house that you dislike, but you can't help, because it's your kid and it's their likes and interest. Say someone really disliked Idk, lions. And their kid loved lions. Everything had to be lions. Clothes, wallpaper, everything. People would be annoyed about that as well. Or say, someone had a certain political opinion, but their kid had another very different opinion and plastered their walls with political posters, asked their parent to drive them to marches, wore political t-shirts Idk. Someone would probably be annoyed by that as well. 

In my world those are comparable to not really wanting dressy things around, because you dislike them, but I can see that apparently those might not be comparable to others. 

[Rachel333]

9 minutes ago, louisa05 said:

There is indirect androcentrism all over this thread. It's a constant on much of the forum. Just look above my post at the mother dreading dealing with a daughter who (heaven forbid!) likes "girly" things. As if that's a bad quality. 

I actually just got the impression that @Shadoewolf was saying that it's an area she's unfamiliar with. Her daughter is entering high school so she's had a girly daughter for a long time and I didn't get the impression that she was dreading dealing with her girly daughter at all, just that high school brings a new set of feminine social rituals that can be difficult to navigate for non-feminine women.

I actually think it's pretty unfair to ascribe the worst motive to someone without even asking for clarification.

[PreciousPantsofDoom]

I can't  speak for @Shadoewolf, but my interpretation of her comment about dreading the whole Homecoming dresses thing was that I would feel the same way. She said she is more comfortable in jeans and flat shoes and so am I. I don't have a daughter, but I would be dreading the whole shopping for girly dresses phase too.  Not because girly is bad, but because it would mean getting involved in girly shopping and figuring out hair and shoes and makeup etc. All of which I am crap at, not trerribly intetested in, and would therefore dread. I would, however, do whatever was needed for my (theoretical) daughter. I would do my best, ask my girly friends for help if necessary, and try to support my child.  And I didn't hear anything in Shadow wolf's post that makes me think she will do anything other than that.  

[nickelodeon]

2 hours ago, louisa05 said:

Just stop it, people. It's actually okay to like traditionally feminine things and it's even okay to be female in both biology and gender. 

erm, what are you getting at here?

[SapphireSlytherin]

1 hour ago, nickelodeon said:

erm, what are you getting at here?

I think she was pretty explicit in her post. 

There is a trend here on FJ - and in everyday life - to slam parents who dress (or allow their daughters to dress) in pink, in frills, in bows, etc.

Girls CAN BE girls, and dressing them in gender-neutral clothing is almost (to me - maybe to @louisa05 too) a slam against being a feminine female.

[SorenaJ]

16 minutes ago, SapphireSlytherin said:

There is a trend here on FJ - and in everyday life - to slam parents who dress (or allow their daughters to dress) in pink, in frills, in bows, etc.

People slam parents who dress their daughters in pink, frills, bows etc. because they wouldn't do the same to boys. If parents dressed their boys as well as girls (and their intersex kids) in pink, frills bows etc. we wouldn't have a problem. 

[Iamtheway]

I have never gotten the feeling anyone here has anything against girly girls liking girly things as long as those girls have an actual choice in the matter. But we talk about fundies here and not parents that listen to what their kids like and dislike.

I was a girl who hated dresses when I was a kid. Refused to wear them (very ironic since I pretty much only wear dresses now). My favourite colour was navy. And therefore my mum bought me nice pants and a navy top for when I needed to dress nicely. Does anyone think this would be an option for Felicity? Would she be allowed to go to Josie’s wedding in pants?

I don’t care what anyone wears as long as it’s their own choice to wear it and it’s not offensive to anyone. I am not praising my son for liking pink dresses. I am however defending his right to wear them and trying to teach him that there is nothing wrong with girly things or doing things ”like a girl”. I know it’s a battle I will probably lose when he gets older. I saw what happened to my nephew and his love of purple when he started school. 

[Melissa1977]

24 minutes ago, SapphireSlytherin said:

. 

There is a trend here on FJ - and in everyday life - to slam parents who dress (or allow their daughters to dress) in pink, in frills, in bows, etc.

Girls CAN BE girls, and dressing them in gender-neutral clothing is almost (to me - maybe to @louisa05 too) a slam against being a feminine female.

Girls can be girls without bows. 

Girls can be even *femenine* without pink and frills and make up, because *femenine* is an attitude. 

What girls cannot do is run, play sports and climb trees in dresses. 

I understand using bows and frills for parties or holidays, but when it is a daily outfit, it impacts girls freedom and personality and even self confidence. They are taught to be pretty and quiet, and clothes and complements become more important than themselves. 

Probably you love girly things and I understand it is hard to accept that there is a dark side under the cuteness. Believe me, I was ready to purchase a whole closet of pink clothes if my eldest would have been a girl. But after 13 years raising him and observing how girls are educated, I think it is really important to reduce the pink.

 

[louisa05]

3 hours ago, Rachel333 said:

People have this idea that non-feminine appearing girls and women are praised for it and that just isn't true. Femininity is still rewarded in girls and women. It drives me nuts to see people praising media for portraying strong feminine women -- lots of "it's so wonderful to see them show that a woman can be strong and still look feminine"--  like it's something unusual when non-feminine women in media are incredibly rare. The problem is that being female at all is looked down on and anything girls and women do is subjected to criticism.

Women are expected to walk a line in which we are feminine, but not too feminine. As any woman who likes pink and fashion and make up and all things girly can tell you, being too feminine is also not allowed. If you are too feminine, you are perceived as shallow, vain or stupid. Women here constantly brag that they don't like dresses or skirts, don't like make-up, don't like pink. Some even brag that their young daughters do not as if it is a mark of good parenting. When is the last time you heard a guy bragging that he doesn't like camo prints and his son never wears them? You never have because no correlation exists where we obsess about our boys being"too boyish" (took me a second to think of the right wording because it is just not a thing). There is no phrase to designate a male child as too male. No one frets about a boy being a "boyish boy". Because nothing in our culture punishes or denigrates the "boyish boy". 

I spend the majority of my days in elementary schools. Boys are dressed in about four colors (and their non-pastel variations) at all times. Girls are dressed in every color under the rainbow. No one dresses their baby boys in pink and ruffles. True. But they dress their baby boys in blue and green and sports themed stuff and dinosaur themed stuff. Or in little "suits" with ties sewed on. And no one gets upset at them forcing gender on their boys. But they are dressing them according to male gender norms. But if the "forced" gender is female, all hell breaks loose. 

We can't have equality when that which is traditionally masculine is the standard and that which is traditionally feminine is considered inferior or weak. 

[JordynDarby5]

50 minutes ago, Iamtheway said:

I have never gotten the feeling anyone here has anything against girly girls liking girly things as long as those girls have an actual choice in the matter. But we talk about fundies here and not parents that listen to what their kids like and dislike.

I was a girl who hated dresses when I was a kid. Refused to wear them (very ironic since I pretty much only wear dresses now). My favourite colour was navy. And therefore my mum bought me nice pants and a navy top for when I needed to dress nicely. Does anyone think this would be an option for Felicity? Would she be allowed to go to Josie’s wedding in pants?

I don’t care what anyone wears as long as it’s their own choice to wear it and it’s not offensive to anyone. I am not praising my son for liking pink dresses. I am however defending his right to wear them and trying to teach him that there is nothing wrong with girly things or doing things ”like a girl”. I know it’s a battle I will probably lose when he gets older. I saw what happened to my nephew and his love of purple when he started school. 

Your right about that. I wish you weren't but you are. Once he starts school it will be a losing battle. My nephew before he went to preschool he loved Dora the Explorer and Frozen. He watched them all the time. Sang the songs. He loved both shows. Until he got to preschool and was told by other boys that boys don't like Dora the Explorer or Frozen, those are girl shows. We all tried to convince him to ignore that crap and there was nothing wrong with liking either show. His dad, mom, grandparents, I tried really hard. But nope. He doesn't like them now because he things boys aren't suppose to. It sucks two things got ruined because other boys got it into their head that boys aren't suppose to like them. Only girls do. I want him to like and do things he wants or wear what he wants because its what he likes, he wants to do and he likes to wear and not because of anyone else's idea of what he should like, want and wear because he's a boy. 

[SapphireSlytherin]

7 minutes ago, Melissa1977 said:

What girls cannot do is run, play sports and climb trees in dresses. 

May I point out that skirts are often worn by women for tennis and/or golf. And the traditional Scottish Highland Games are played by men wearing kilts.

That's a pretty ludicrous statement right there. It never stopped me, and it never stopped any other girls I know. Bike shorts under the skirts and away you go.

[NakedKnees]

@Iamtheway basically said it better than me, but I think context is key here. Jinger grew up with her mom making the dubious claim to the world that her daughters were skirts-only (even swimming and as volunteer firefighters) because they want to be, and I've always read criticism of bows and what not on the Duggar and fundie boards as relative to that. I just don't know if it's a persistent perspective on FJ outside of these particularly forums and their context.

I also have to say that, in my experience, female-bodied people dressing traditionally feminine is still praised. It sort of stings to read that feminine women are overly criticized when I need to wake up earlier than I wish and trudge through a makeup and dress routine to look "presentable," and still get rude comments for my hairy legs. These aren't things I, as a woman, am showered in compliments for. So... sorry, YMMV, but sometimes it sucks to not be uber feminine and I don't feel the need to shut up about that.

And to be crystal clear, there is absolutely NOTHING wrong with being feminine. I really truly hope things like the popularity of drag and K-pop boy bands (just for example) have a lasting effect on how men enjoy traditionally feminine clothing. People just really shouldn't be shat on for clothing choices made of their own volition, period.

Maybe we can all just agree that there is no winning when it comes to existing as women sometimes?

 

[Shadoewolf]

So now that I have time to clarify, because life decided to absolutely suck today.

My kids are spaced 4 years apart but Middle is a year behind in school. I have done 4 years of dresses, heels, hair and makeup for Homecoming and Prom with Oldest, who by her very nature hates that stuff but did it anyway. None of those shopping excursions were fun or cheap. She graduated but is now dating a guy who is a senior. So where I *thought* I was getting a break for a year, no such luck. We just got through the Homecoming drama of needing a dress (3 days before the event!!) last month. 

Now it's very possible that my middle child girly girl will be totally easy to shop with/for next year, but for now I'm dreading the very prospect of another 4 years of doing it if it's anything like the last 5 I've had to endure. I would LOVE to pop on here in a year and be like "guess what FJ?! My middle child picked a really cute dress, it didn't take 12 stores and there were no tears, sulking or arguments with lots of swear words!" 

Middle wolfie got into wearing skirts over the summer. So, because that's what she liked, I picked her up about 10. I bought her a ton of cami dresses from Old Navy one day (shopping for work shirts)  because they were on clearance and I thought she'd like them. Her response was something about how they were great and I was the best. I buy her stuff in pink, purple or light blue all the time. I don't stifle who she is just cuz it's not what *I* like. 

Hope that's a little more clear.

[Rachel333]

2 hours ago, louisa05 said:

Women here constantly brag that they don't like dresses or skirts, don't like make-up, don't like pink.

Wow, I feel like you're really assuming some negative things about women here, and that is very unfair. Why is it bragging? I know I've never meant it as a brag when I talk about it (Not being into traditionally feminine  activities and clothing is something that I've been criticized for all my life and, like many other girls who feel the same way, I went through a period where I really tried to get into that stuff.) but I do frequently see women get really defensive and even upset when another woman says something about not personally liking makeup even when they don't say anything at all about other women being bad for doing so.

(And by the way, the one time I did see someone here explicitly criticize women for being into makeup, I said something, as did quite a few other people.)

Like I said, anything women do is policed and subject to criticism and that includes things like makeup and feminine clothing, but gender conforming women are still treated better overall. I don't think "all hell breaks loose" when girls are dressed feminine when it's still incredibly normal for people to dress their little girls in pink and frills. Some criticism of that on a board that leans very liberal and tends to discuss the ways fundies force gender conformity on their children doesn't mean that attitude is the norm in society overall.

That said, there is a "not like other girls" syndrome and rejecting makeup and feminine clothes can be part of it. I agree that it's unfair to say that girls and women are shallow just for liking makeup. I've also seen girls who do like makeup and dresses embrace the "not like other girls" attitude in other ways as well. I think it says a lot about how girls and women are seen and portrayed in media that so many girls go through a period where they think they're not like other girls because they aren't a complete stereotype. 

[EmmieJ]

On 10/16/2018 at 7:01 PM, sixcatatty said:

The original one with Jonathan Frid as Barnabas and the two movies made from it. The first one was better. Kate Jackson (Charlie's Angels) was in the second. I refuse to watch the Johnny Depp movie.

I did see the Johnny Depp version and have never gotten over the disappointment.  Really awful.

[Rachel333]

3 hours ago, SapphireSlytherin said:

Girls CAN BE girls, and dressing them in gender-neutral clothing is almost (to me - maybe to @louisa05 too) a slam against being a feminine female.

Wait, are you saying it's bad to dress girls in gender neutral clothing?

[VelociRapture]

1 hour ago, Rachel333 said:

Wait, are you saying it's bad to dress girls in gender neutral clothing?

I’d appreciate some clarification on this as well because it left me a bit confused too. 

As for the overall conversation, a few things:

- Most of the comments I’ve seen here are specifically aimed towards fundamentalists who force/heavily push gender stereotypes onto their children. If you aren’t a fundamentalist who does that then those comments do not apply to you.

- I wouldn’t be surprised if there were comments that were either purposely or accidentally aimed towards society in general. Part of that could be cultural (since we are an international community here) or it could be a simple miscommunication. Regardless, no matter where you fall on the matter you shouldn’t be shamed for your interest or lack of interest. 

- I will also agree that in my experience women tend to be treated worse when they don’t conform to a stereotypical image of feminity then when they do. That said, women can’t really win regardless of how they choose to look or dress.

- If you’re a parent then just love your kid for the unique person they are. You don’t have to love or like everything they enjoy, but you should at least be able to suck it up and happily support something important to your child. Fundie or not, any parent who would force their child to conform to their ideas about gender (whatever they may be) is a shitty parent in that respect. Let your kid explore, decide for themselves, and love them anyways.

As I’ve said before, makeup and dressing nice just aren’t my thing. Some people really enjoy it and some have a natural gift for that stuff, but I’m really not one of them. I’m far more comfortable in sweatshirts and quickly buying something online then I am in stilletos or browsing the mall for hours. That said, if my daughter ends up enjoying that stuff then she’ll have my full support (within reason) in exploring makeup and fashion and if she wants to enjoy those things with me then I’ll make the effort (again, within reason) for her. Right now though she’s not even 2 and is simply having fun with exploring everything right now - something we are eager to encourage because, unlike the fundies discussed here, we want her to have options to pick from. 

[Rachel333]

8 minutes ago, VelociRapture said:

I will also agree that in my experience women tend to be treated worse when they don’t conform to a stereotypical image of feminity then when they do. That said, women can’t really win regardless of how they choose to look or dress.

Unfortunately that's the truth. No matter how women look or dress there will always be people criticizing them for that.

[PennySycamore]

@SapphireSlytherin, there's a big difference in tennis and golf skirts and typical woman's skirts.  Tennis skirts tend to be short (thank you, Gussie Moran!*) and golf skirts are made not to impede a woman's swing.  Women also aren't usually in danger of exposing themselves very much on the course.  Their sports clothing is made for their particular sport and to enhance their play.  That said, you might find a modern woman playing golf or tennis who is not traditionally attired.

*Gussie Moran was a woman who wore a very short tennis dress to the 1949 Wimbledon tournament.  You could see Gussie's frilly knickers (panties) and people were absolutely scandalized.  She changed the way women dress to play tennis forever.

It doesn't take the Highland Games to bring out the kilt in some men.  There was a doctor at my doctor's office this morning when I had my physical who was wearing a kilt.  That's the second time I've noticed the kilt.  I think it's pretty cool actually.