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Seewalds 36: Waiting for the Next Cute Kid Video or Photo

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Rachel333
2 hours ago, Charliemae said:

*also a whole other can of worms we could open here is the children that were taken by the american government because they are immigrants and are now being adopted out...

Yes, this is sickening and hasn't received enough attention. The adoption industry is already full of abuse (money+desperate want-to-be parents+vulnerable women and children's lives is a dangerous combination) and I had read a lot about adoption issues before but the idea of deporting parents and adopting out their children hadn't occurred to me until Trump's policies brought more attention to the issue.

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Four is Enough
6 hours ago, Charliemae said:

ADOPTION IS A TRAGDY on all sides, bio parents, adopted children and most parents who adopt are aware of this... It's a world of loss and hurt and needs to be navigated with care and understanding for individual situations.  I don't know yours and you don't know mine..

I don't know whether it's a complete tragedy, but I will agree that adoption is a world of loss and pain. It most certainly takes care in the navigation. Even the best of intentions sometimes go astray.

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patsymae
On 10/14/2018 at 12:43 AM, Hisey said:

I think people don't realize how much they hurt adopted kids when they say things like this.

I know many privately adopted kids. Their parents were quite ethical, and the birth mother was not coerced--far from it. No money exchanged hands for the child--that is illegal. The adoptive parents paid certain medical expenses (in some cases). In all cases, the adoptions are open and everyone is happy and on good terms.

Everyone is happy, that is, till some stranger shows up  announces the kid was "bought." If the kid hears this comment, this rachets up his insecurity and sense of doubt about his place in the family. The stranger is NOT someone who has adopted (or helped kids in any other way), he just has lots of opinions about who should and who shouldn't.

The kids I know would be  horrified to hear that you think they were bought. That would be so damaging to them.  Adopted kids can be insecure to begin with, and they struggle to not to feel like damaged goods. When adults throw around cruel comments like, "You were bought" that really hurts those children. They are already struggling to feel like real, valid members of their adopted families, not like sacks of flour from Walmart.

Why would you say such a hurtful thing, anyway? Do you actually know kids who were bought? Do you think adoption from the state (which also involves the exchange of money) is the only valid type of adoption? 

My own kids are adopted (internationally) which is why I know a bit about this. And my kids would also be hurt to hear they were "bought" as well. I've told them how we paid people for the work that they did (like preparing papers and translation, etc), but all that unravels when they hear ignorant remarks like yours. 

Sorry, but it bothers me when adults insult vulnerable, often at-risk kids by labeling them in such damaging ways. 

(You are correct, though, that if a birth mother is OK with a family, there is no rule saying the family needs a certain number of bedrooms or whatever. And that's a good thing. The birth mother should be able to choose any family she wants without the state interfering.)

 

Adoption is absolutely about buying kids. If it were just paying for paperwork, etc., healthy white kids wouldn't cost more to adopt than special needs, sick, or nonwhite kids--the paperwork isn't any different, it's supply and demand. Adoption is a multi-million-dollar industry that makes money by supplying children to people who are willing and able to pay for them.

For example: https://adoption.com/forums/thread/371447/why-it-costs-more-to-adopt-a-white-baby/   This is from a pro-adoption site.


Read the forums for/by H/APs. They want to know what is the fastest and cheapest way to get themselves a kid. They want to know how they can recoup "birthmother expenses" if the mother declines to give her child to strangers. 
Look at all the countries that have shut down international adoption because of corruption--if there are affluent Westerners willing to pay to adopt children then someone will find a way to provide them. 
Read Kathryn Joyce's "The Child Catchers."
Yes, I know "not all." That doesn't change the system that commodifies children.

Edited by patsymae
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Four is Enough
18 hours ago, patsymae said:

Adoption is absolutely about buying kids. If it were just paying for paperwork, etc., healthy white kids wouldn't cost more to adopt than special needs, sick, or nonwhite kids--the paperwork isn't any different, it's supply and demand. Adoption is a multi-million-dollar industry that makes money by supplying children to people who are willing and able to pay for them.

All Four are white; all Four are adopted. One and Two were adopted privately, and they actually cost LESS to adopt than Three and Four, who were adopted through foster care. One and Two were adopted as infants. Again, our costs were minimal, because the birth mothers did both have some insurance of their own. We could legally only pay legal and medical fees. Our home studies, etc. were approximately the same for all Four. Three and Four were considered "special needs" because of being siblings, and did develop some needs after placement..

You seem to be quite militant about this. It's actually insulting to an adoptive parent to be told that she "bought" her children, and it would be devastating to the child to learn he'd been "bought". While I would have jumped through many hoops to have a child, buying a bigger house, making sure there were enough beds, blankets, food, toys, I would never have paid a birth family money for the "sale" of a child. There may be people who do but it is not the majority.

And let me tell you about the soul searching adoptive parents have to go through. We were handed a list of problems that "special needs" children in foster care have. We were instructed to read each type and decide if we would "consider", "accept", or "refuse" such a child. It was an eye opening experience, how many children we felt we could not handle. We are both medical people, but for the sake of the older two, many severely needy children were "refused" by us. We understood that the foster care people want these children placed with people who can handle their issues and remain loving and caring. These children deserve the best possible placement. 

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Charliemae
1 hour ago, Four is Enough said:

All Four are white; all Four are adopted. One and Two were adopted privately, and they actually cost LESS to adopt than Three and Four, who were adopted through foster care. One and Two were adopted as infants. Again, our costs were minimal, because the birth mothers did both have some insurance of their own. We could legally only pay legal and medical fees. Our home studies, etc. were approximately the same for all Four. Three and Four were considered "special needs" because of being siblings, and did develop some needs after placement..

You seem to be quite militant about this. It's actually insulting to an adoptive parent to be told that she "bought" her children, and it would be devastating to the child to learn he'd been "bought". While I would have jumped through many hoops to have a child, buying a bigger house, making sure there were enough beds, blankets, food, toys, I would never have paid a birth family money for the "sale" of a child. There may be people who do but it is not the majority.

. We were handed a list of problems that "special needs" children in foster care have. We were instructed to read each type and decide if we would "consider", "accept", or "refuse" such a child. It was an eye opening experience, how many children we felt we could not handle. We are both medical people, but for the sake of the older two, many severely needy children were "refused" by us. We understood that the foster care people want these children placed with people who can handle their issues and remain loving and caring. These children deserve the best possible placement. 

 

I can fully understand why some posters are taking this personally as it feels very personal.  They doesn't change the terrible facts about the system.   No one is saying that YOU personally are a part of the problem.  A problem does exist.  Pointing it out isn't an insult, it's an important conversation starter

You've shared extensivly about your adoptions on this forum (more than I would ever be comfortable sharing ).  Just because others aren't peppering their post with personal emotional appeals doesn't mean they don't have a personal or vested interest in this.  Being "millitant" about child welfare, not the insult you think it is. 

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Nikedagain?

I'm a birth mom who had a private, closed adoption for 18 years. 

I'm an adoptive mom, who adopted through the foster care system. 

I've also been a GAL for over 22 years.

So I come with different experiences. 

There is loss all the way around. Absolutely.

Tragedy? Not always, not even most of the time.

Buying kids? I think this is not yet the rule, but the exception. 

This is why I fiercely, passionately defend choice. Why I escort patients almost every Saturday while being screamed at, called awful names, have my photo/video posted on Social media. Why I am all about education and taking action to support those who have been disenfranchised. 

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Charliemae
23 minutes ago, Nikedagain? said:

I'm a birth mom who had a private, closed adoption for 18 years. 

I'm an adoptive mom, who adopted through the foster care system. 

I've also been a GAL for over 22 years.

So I come with different experiences. 

There is loss all the way around. Absolutely.

Tragedy? Not always, not even most of the time.

Buying kids? I think this is not yet the rule, but the exception. 

This is why I fiercely, passionately defend choice. Why I escort patients almost every Saturday while being screamed at, called awful names, have my photo/video posted on Social media. Why I am all about education and taking action to support those who have been disenfranchised. 

I know it's easy to nit-pick my use of hyperbole, using the word tragedy", but really that's not the point I was making with that post.  I was alluding to the "loss all the way around".  I'm not seeing anywhere that we disagree.  

Edited by Charliemae

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AussieKrissy

Does anyone know why the seewalds have changed their instagram to private. I mean with that many followers is there any real point to doing that. I never followed them. When I went to check their page I see they have changed. 

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Mama Mia
14 hours ago, Charliemae said:

 

I can fully understand why some posters are taking this personally as it feels very personal.  They doesn't change the terrible facts about the system.   No one is saying that YOU personally are a part of the problem.  A problem does exist.  Pointing it out isn't an insult, it's an important conversation starter

You've shared extensivly about your adoptions on this forum (more than I would ever be comfortable sharing ).  Just because others aren't peppering their post with personal emotional appeals doesn't mean they don't have a personal or vested interest in this.  Being "millitant" about child welfare, not the insult you think it is. 

Your wording strongly implies you mean babies are always bought. It’s offensive. Your snide response here is also offensive.

2 hours ago, AussieKrissy said:

Does anyone know why the seewalds have changed their instagram to private. I mean with that many followers is there any real point to doing that. I never followed them. When I went to check their page I see they have changed. 

It’s still showing as public to me

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justmy2cents
4 hours ago, Mama Mia said:

It’s still showing as public to me

Seewaldfamily acct has gone private. Either you're following them or you're thinking of a different account?

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SapphireSlytherin
22 minutes ago, justmy2cents said:

Seewaldfamily acct has gone private. Either you're following them or you're thinking of a different account?

Seewaldfamily isn't Jessa/Ben's verified account. No blue checkmark... 

Edit - I finally realized the photo on that account is Ben's parents. 

Still, though - I'd be leery of thinking it's really Ben's parents' account.

Edited by SapphireSlytherin

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VelociRapture
3 hours ago, SapphireSlytherin said:

Seewaldfamily isn't Jessa/Ben's verified account. No blue checkmark... 

Edit - I finally realized the photo on that account is Ben's parents. 

Still, though - I'd be leery of thinking it's really Ben's parents' account.

It is his parents’ account though. You can tell because multiple Duggars - including Benessa - follow the account. The Duggars have stated in the past that they only follow actual family/friend accounts on Instagram. 

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Mama Mia
3 hours ago, justmy2cents said:

Seewaldfamily acct has gone private. Either you're following them or you're thinking of a different account?

Oh, ok. I thought by Seewalds the reference was to Jessa and Ben

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AussieKrissy
6 hours ago, VelociRapture said:

It is his parents’ account though. You can tell because multiple Duggars - including Benessa - follow the account. The Duggars have stated in the past that they only follow actual family/friend accounts on Instagram. 

Sorry my bad, I meant Ben's parents. I still think of Ben and Jessa as Duggars. 

Ben's parent's account has gone private

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Georgiana
On ‎10‎/‎17‎/‎2018 at 10:22 AM, Charliemae said:

I know it's easy to nit-pick my use of hyperbole, using the word tragedy", but really that's not the point I was making with that post.  I was alluding to the "loss all the way around".  I'm not seeing anywhere that we disagree.  

The thing is though: words have meaning.  You used a word that has a meaning that is not always applicable.  My (adopted) sister would tear you a new one if you called her adoption a tragedy.  That would be deeply, emotionally offensive to her AND completely dismisses her personal feelings on the event.  While my brother has different and more ambivalent feelings regarding his adoption, he also would be offended that you called the day (or the process by which) he was legally recognized as a member of his family a "tragedy".  

There is always a tragic situation that leads to an adoption, but that does not make adoptions themselves the tragedy.  Therein lies the distinction, and it is an important one when talking about something so deeply personal.  Some adoptions may also be tragedies, but some are actually events that mark the end of a particularly tragic chapter in a child's life or the best response possible to an incredibly tragic situation in which there are no better solutions.  

It was a tragedy that my sister's mother was so addicted to drugs that she could not stay clean for her pregnancy.  It was a tragedy that in her drugged out state, she was unable to control her temper and repeatedly (and dangerously) abused a newborn baby for doing normal, newborn baby things.  It was a tragedy that in the two years my sister was with us in foster care, my sister's mother could not or would not (she was court ordered to undergo substance abuse treatment and simply refused) get clean.  It was a tragedy when she showed up at the hospital, gave birth to another baby, and left before my sister's caseworker could even get there.  The tragedy was that my sister's mom loved drugs more than she loved her kids.  

But the day the court legally severed the ties binding my sister to the woman who had never shown any interest in mothering her and instead recognized the people who had actually functioned as parents to her was not a tragedy.  The fact that many of my sister's siblings landed in stable homes that were able and willing to care for them permanently was certainly not a tragedy.  Was it the best outcome possible?  Absolutely not.  It would have been GREAT if my sister's mom had gotten clean and gotten her kids back.  But she showed no interest in doing that, so we had to move forward with the next best thing.

That's how I would describe adoption: it's never the best option in theory, it's never truly equal to being raised by your natural parents, but the tragedy is that sometimes it's simply not possible or advisable for very good reasons for natural parents to raise their own children.  When that is the case, then what adoption may be is the next best thing.  

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Georgiana
On ‎10‎/‎14‎/‎2018 at 10:47 AM, Carm_88 said:

It's sad that people still buy kids, but by saying it hurts people; that doesn't make it less true.

I think that the point is that while it DOES happen, it does not ALWAYS happen.  So while abuses of the adoption system are very real, that doesn't give people the right to dump ALL adoptions into the same bucket and make generalizing statements that then hurt already vulnerable people.  That is harmful, and should not be done.  That's I think the point @Hisey was making: people make these comments about adoption in very sweeping terms, sometimes in places where they may be overheard by adoptees, without concern as to whether they are factually accurate or without bothering to consider the emotions of those bundled up in that statement.  

SOME adoptions are problematic.  SOME adoptions should not have happened.  But that does not mean all, and we should not pretend like it does or seek to create a stigma surrounding private adoption.  The issues stated in this thread are very real things that happen, but they did not happen in all cases or to all adoptees, and the best response is to tackle those problems at the root as opposed to demonizing an entire process that has touched many lives in a deeply personal (and sometimes positive) way.   

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Hisey

The next time you tell a five-year old that her mommy bought her, look into her eyes. 

I suspect, though, you have nothing to do with real, live children.  

I imagine you just say these things safely  online. 

My friends’ dsughter nearly died in a foster home. Thank God my friend “bought” her and took her away from that abuse! Sorry if that bothers you. How many parentless kids have you helped today?

I also think you are being very condescending to birth mothers. They are making a choice. Who are you to say their choice is not real, or wrong, or should be undone? Why would you treat a birth mother like a child, and assume that only you know what is best for her? 

 

 

 

 

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SamiKatz

Of all of the discussions I have seen on this board while I've been here, equating adoption with "buying" children is the craziest.  I can't believe people even feel that way.

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Meggo
13 hours ago, Hisey said:

 

I also think you are being very condescending to birth mothers. They are making a choice. Who are you to say their choice is not real, or wrong, or should be undone? Why would you treat a birth mother like a child, and assume that only you know what is best for her? 

 

 

 

 

Here in Canada - absolutely NO money, gift, benefit changes hands between the adoptive family and the birth parents. I couldn't even give her FLOWERS because it could be seen as trying to buy her favor. 
The money we paid for the (private) adoption process was for legal fees, for our adoption workers fees (no one works for free), for any counselling Birth Mom or Birth Dad might need (up to a certain amount) - and for a search for Birth Dad if required. (it wasn't required in our case - we did not pay that fee). We didn't buy him. 

My son's birth mom is an amazing woman and an amazing mom to the son she chose to parent. I will hear NOTHING bad said about her, no assumptions that she was addicted to something, that she abandoned him, that she didn't feed him - nothing. (not saying anyone here did - but I have had to defend her to some family members) She was a young woman with an 11 month old when my son was born. She knew it was hard to raise one baby on her own and she knew she wouldn't be in the best position to handle it. So she made the choice, the decision, to put my son up for adoption and HAND SELECTED us for our son. She and I are in communication - we email all the time, share stories of the boys, marvel at how they even SLEEP the same way (hands thrown up over the head taking up as much space as humanly possible). 
She is a part of our family. Yes, open adoption is a little weird - but it's like every relationship - we manage it the best we can. Does it look like we thought it would when we started out? Likely no - but we're in this together. 

I silently thank my lucky stars for her every.single.day. Every time that boy says "momma". I tell her thank you every birthday, every mothers day. And she thanks ME. Thanks ME for taking such good care of the boy she gave birth to. For letting her stay in our lives as she has. 

Yes - adoption can be tragic. And there is always an element of sadness to it on someone's part (birth mom, family, child, adoptive parent) SOMEONE has sadness about this. BUT. It can also be filled with love, respect, gratefulness, joy... It's transformative. 

/soapbox

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nausicaa
1 hour ago, SamiKatz said:

Of all of the discussions I have seen on this board while I've been here, equating adoption with "buying" children is the craziest.  I can't believe people even feel that way.

Yeah... (I do appreciate the conversations on the dark sides of adoption and I've learned a lot on this forum about it, but sometimes things go a bit far.)

Also, it's always so strange to me how women who have suffered miscarriages or terminate a pregnancy are always (rightfully) given so much sympathy and support on FJ; however women who desperately want to become mothers but are infertile are sort of dismissed as Spoiled White Karens who are selfishly "buying kids." I imagine their situation is just as difficult and heartbreaking as the other ones.

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Four is Enough
1 hour ago, Meggo said:

 So she made the choice, the decision, to put my son up for adoption and HAND SELECTED us for our son. She and I are in communication - we email all the time, 


She is a part of our family. Yes, open adoption is a little weird - but it's like every relationship - we manage it the best we can. Does it look like we thought it would when we started out? Likely no - but we're in this together. 

I silently thank my lucky stars for her every.single.day. . I tell her thank you every birthday, every mothers day. And she thanks ME. Thanks ME for taking such good care of the boy she gave birth to. For letting her stay in our lives as she has. 

Yes - adoption can be tragic. And there is always an element of sadness to it on someone's part (birth mom, family, child, adoptive parent) SOMEONE has sadness about this. BUT. It can also be filled with love, respect, gratefulness, joy... It's transformative. 

/soapbox

Thank you, thank you, THANK YOU for saying this. I've said all along that if you love my kid, you're part of my family, and yes it is WEIRD having interactions with birth families, but it can also be loving and kind.

56 minutes ago, nausicaa said:

Also, it's always so strange to me how women who have suffered miscarriages or terminate a pregnancy are always (rightfully) given so much sympathy and support on FJ; however women who desperately want to become mothers but are infertile are sort of dismissed as Spoiled White Karens who are selfishly "buying kids." I imagine their situation is just as difficult and heartbreaking as the other ones.

Difficult, yes. Sometimes heartbreaking. Just have an adoption go sour. There's a child; you love the child, and the child goes away from you.

Being selected by our birth families to raise their child has been by far the most humbling and incredible experience of Mr. Four's and my lives. 

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libgirl2
2 hours ago, SamiKatz said:

Of all of the discussions I have seen on this board while I've been here, equating adoption with "buying" children is the craziest.  I can't believe people even feel that way.

I don't even say buy a pet.... its adopt a pet. 

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Carm_88
16 hours ago, Georgiana said:

I think that the point is that while it DOES happen, it does not ALWAYS happen.

I think it's very wrong to say that everyone was saying that every single adoption is a buying situation. That's not at all what was said. There was a sweeping generalization made that no kids are bought via adoption, that it is illegal. That is simply not true. The fact of the matter is that there is abuse of every single system that can be abused. So illegal, really doesn't mean anything.

Generalizations go both ways. You can't say that every single adoption is perfectly above board and that no children are bought, which was said. The vast majority of people go about it the right way, but not everyone does. Good or bad, the situation has to be painted accurately.

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Charliemae
11 minutes ago, Carm_88 said:

I think it's very wrong to say that everyone was saying that every single adoption is a buying situation. That's not at all what was said. There was a sweeping generalization made that no kids are bought via adoption, that it is illegal. That is simply not true. The fact of the matter is that there is abuse of every single system that can be abused. So illegal, really doesn't mean anything.

Generalizations go both ways. You can't say that every single adoption is perfectly above board and that no children are bought, which was said. The vast majority of people go about it the right way, but not everyone does. Good or bad, the situation has to be painted accurately.

Thank you.  

We don't need to beat a straw horse to death.  

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VelociRapture

My thoughts are summed up exactly as this: 

- The majority of adoptions (in the US) appear to be handled legally and with good intentions by all the parties involved. 

- That said, there are adoptions that are not done legally or include ethical and moral grey areas. If the law is not followed during the course of an adoption then there absolutely needs to be serious repercussions for those responsible (whether it’s the adoptive parents, biological parents, lawyers, etc.)  

- Adoptions are both tragic and beautiful: tragic strictly in the sense that a family is ending/has ended and beautiful because a new family is coming together. 

- I obviously don’t know nearly enough about all this, but I honestly think adoptions should be subject to Federal guidelines if they aren’t already (and I don’t believe they are. I read briefly about differences between states during the Veronica Brown case several years ago - that one also included Tribal Sovereignty and father’s rights, so it was kind of a clusterfuck.) 

- It doesn’t matter if you welcomed a child into your family through adoption or surrogacy or through you or your partner giving birth. It’s a messy and scary and overwhelming experience that all families should be supported through.

Other than that, people directly involved in adoptions - whatever their role - have the right to feel however they feel about it. 

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