Jana 7: Home Sweet TTH

[tabitha2]

Who did Jill have?  If she had Jana then Jana will probably have her.

[luv2laugh]

2 hours ago, Vivi_music said:

It is true, now going through this thread, that I remember Jana and Jill being like the older pair and Jessa and Jinger being the younger pair. Jana and Jill seemed to have the most responsabilities of the two pairs and yes Jana accompagnied Jill in a lot of things (midwife training, fire departement). Yet now that a lot of the older kids are getting married, moving out, etc, it seems they are not particularly eager to catch up with one another. I see Jessa and Jinger's bond still very strong. I think it was said that they call each other often and Jessa seems to miss Jinger genuinely. 

But I can't seem to remember seeing Jana and Jill often together since Jill moved out. I know Jill isn't on the show anymore but from what we see on social media, she is not being shunned from her family completly. She is seen with her younger siblings often, she posted about visiting Jessa for play dates with the cousins and she was at the TTH for the ugly Christmas sweater thing. But her and Jana together? I can't seem to recall. Yet Jana is seen often with Jessa, even Jinger when she is visiting. It makes me wonder if they were paired together as the eldest sisters but in the end didn't have much in common nor genuinely connected with one another.

My personal opinion is that Derick has isolated Jill from her family. Jill rarely has the kids play with Jessa’s kids. Jill mostly spends her days with at home or with Derick and her in laws.

[tabitha2]

I don’t think JB would allow that. He is still the big dog  and he has always doted on his girls much more than his boys. 

[Melissa1977]

44 minutes ago, tabitha2 said:

I don’t think JB would allow that. He is still the big dog  and he has always doted on his girls much more than his boys. 

In case you are commenting about Derick isolating Jill in your post, unfortunately isolation does not always work as a directly forced thing. Isolation is not kidnapping. In many couples with this problem, the partner who isolates can use a lot of tricks some of them even *sweet*. The isolated partner usually thinks that leaving his/her family or friends is necessary or romantic or that these people are not good anymore.

I don't know if Derick isolates Jill. Maybe Jill wants to be alone (not very realistic, but who knows) or maybe it's the Duggars who don't want her near. Anyway, supposing that Derick isolates her, JB can do nothing to avoid it. First of all, because he thinks that Derick is Jill's headship. Second, because realising that the man he chase for his daughter is a mess would hurt his pride. Third, because if someone is really submissive and being isolated, this person needs a open-minded caring parent who can listen... not exactly JB's profile.

[allthegoodnamesrgone]

In all honesty, I feel their is something very wrong in the Dillard household. At best Derick is EXTREMELY controlling, and I don't even want to speak about, the worst case scenario. Jim Bob, I don't think he knows something is very off with the Dillard family, other than, Derrick is a dumbass, and he can't afford any more scandals. A divorced daughter would be way worse than ANYTHING, Josh did, in their circles, so I can see Jill over compensating for the weaknesses in their family,  of which I'm sure Derrick has placed all blame on Jill for. 

[VelociRapture]

Based off their culture and beliefs, I would guess that Jill and Jana may not have as much in common anymore as they used to. Jill is married with two kids, while Jana is single*. Jill also lived out of the country off and on for a while and doesn’t appear to have always had reliable communication methods, which also could have impacted their relationship. And there’s also the fact that, as far as we know, Jana is not a victim of sexual assault like Jill and the other eldest Duggar daughters are. I could see Jill forming a closer bond with Jessa in particular after the scandal broke - they were both newlyweds, were new moms/pregnant for the first time, wound up giving a nationally broadcast interview about their abuse and the impact of it being made public, and then had to deal with being raked across the coals by people who were angry at the minimizing they had done in that interview. That’s a unique experience the other Duggar kids wouldn’t really share with Jill and Jessa. 

I’m also not sure how close Jill lives to the TTH. Or how close they live to Cathy or Dan and Deena. If they live closer to them then that might be why they see them a lot. Or maybe they really like the attention their boys get on that side since there are less grandkids to compete with for attention. Jessa is right down the road from the TTH, so it makes sense she’d see their family more often than Jill might. 

*And before anyone jumps on me, this was said specifically because of their fundamentalist beliefs. There’s nothing wrong to me about being single or not having kids - you do you. 

7 hours ago, luv2laugh said:

My personal opinion is that Derick has isolated Jill from her family. Jill rarely has the kids play with Jessa’s kids. Jill mostly spends her days with at home or with Derick and her in laws.

I’ve looked through their website and they seem to share more photos of her family on there. I can easily see how if someone judges solely by Instagram how they’d walk away thinking they never see the Duggars though - they seem to focus more on their kids, each other, and promoting the website there. Someone else pointed out that Jill seems to enjoy spending time with her younger siblings and based off their website I’d agree. 

Disclaimer: To be clear, it’s still absolutely possible that she’s being isolated in some way.  

[HarleyQuinn]

I always got the feeling Jana and Jill hung out while they were younger for necessity rather than actually enjoying each other. They were the oldest daughters. The way Jill immediately was like "I'm engaged, Jana, be my sewing slave" kind of ran that one home for me. 

[SassyPants]

 

11 hours ago, Kelsey said:

This question will (likely) be answered when Jana marries. Who does she choose to stand beside her, Jill, Jessa, does she go rogue and choose a non-sister like Laura who appears to be her actual best friend or Anna?

Yep, because currently, in their belief system, Jana is still a child, so she likely would not be encouraged to fraternize with her adult, married sisters.

[Anna Bolinas]

18 hours ago, tabitha2 said:

Not just super Jana but also Jill raised that household which presumably took some organizational and management  skills which given they Are Duggars Isn't saying much  but it’s something. Jessa and Jinger seemed to slide through from what we saw.  I know Jill is completely  incompetent And stupid and a waste of space and all her sisters are vastly superior to her in every single respect to many FJ’ers but I don’t think that’s the whole story.

(I know this wasn't necessarily directed at me but) I don't think Jill is the worst, I honestly feel really bad for her (with the usual caveat of her beliefs being awful). Jessa and Jinger did luck out with their choice of husbands, because as stoneriffic as Ben seems, and as obnoxious as Jeremy is, they at least come across as relatively normal. Derick, meanwhile, is a mess, and that colors the perception of Jill.

I also think, like others have said, that there's a difference between being at home and taking care of siblings, and being away from home and taking care of your own children. Jill had a support system when she lived in the Duggar household--she had her sisters, her buddy group, her parents (for whatever that's worth lol), and the comforting environment of being at home. Take that away, and it gets a little harder.

[caitiedid313]

But, but but... they are ALL each others' best friends!

Definitely, but maybe they’re not all not each others’ *very* best friends. [emoji2957]

[Audrey2]

I see Jill's experience as that of someone who goes from being a student teacher, working under a cooperating teacher who is in the classroom most or all of the time while the student teacher presents lessons. Even though the student teacher is in charge, the cooperating teacher has already set rules and procedures in the classroom in order to make the classroom management go smoothly. Years ago, I worked with a really nice first-year teacher who had very poor classroom management skills and very poor lesson planning skills. I don't know what her student teaching experience was like, but I can't see it possible that if you student teach with a very strong teacher who still likes to maintain some of his or her own control in the classroom, that when you get your own classroom it would be a lot harder to effectively set rules and procedures, maintain discipline, and possibly even create lesson plans.

Jill was an enforcer and a sister mom and a situation where many of the children if not all of them had been blanket trained, taught instant obedience, and probably faced harsh punishment. now, she is the one responsible for setting of the rules, procedures, and limits, but her sons seem to respond in a different way. She also has a very different co-parent than what Michelle did. although we didn't see it, I know Michelle and Jim Bob had two parents the older children in order to set up a system where their daughters could be sister moms. Just based off what we've seen, Derek has a different personality than Jim Bob and co-parents in a very different way.

[Bad Wolf]

I think Jana was the enforcer. When Joy was telling the young ones to "instantly obey", she threatened them with Jana when they wouldn't mind.

The Daleks also used the phrase "instantly obey" in the early Dr. Who episodes.

[luv2laugh]

People say that Jana is happy because Jana is a 28 year old adult and has chosen not to leave. Again, we don't know anything and Jana does appear content. However, emotional enmeshment is a difficult concept to explain. Many of the Turpin family kidults were in their late 20s and 30s and were not leaving the house despite suffering (NOT to say Jana is being abused at all).

The point is that sometimes, adult children such as Jana (or the Turpin kids) aren't happy with their lives but are too emotionally enmeshed to leave and/or have negative beliefs about themselves that prevent them from leaving. Not only is this situation seen in long-time hostages, but it's also similar in SOME cases of abused wives. Yes, there are a few that are resilient and determined to go through with a drastic change to leave but many are trapped by learned helplessness. 

There are even women in marriages that ARE NOT abusive (yet are unhappy) that want to leave but don't because they feel too emotionally enmeshed and financially dependent on their husbands to do it. Some of these women leave the house, get a job to make ends meet, etc. but not all can. Many are victims of learned helplessness. There are people that ARE UNHAPPY but believe they'll never be independent, no one else will ever love them, they won't be able to survive, have social anxiety, etc. This belief system traps them into a severe depression and some women don't make it out.

I, myself, have been in a relationship where I felt that way about myself. I knew things weren't improving, was unhappy, but still loved the person and felt no one else would ever love me.

I've reached the conclusion that we simply will not ever know if Jana is truly happy or not. Perhaps one day, a decade from now, she will be living a different life and we'll be able to reevaluate everything to make a conclusion on if her current life is one of her own honest choosing...

Honestly, Jill could be in this exact situation. Who is to say Jill is even happy with Derick? HE IS NOT WHAT SHE & JB THOUGHT HE WAS. Yes, she's with him and constantly brags about him all of the time but we have no idea if she is happy and we won't ever find out unless she finds the courage within herself to make changes.  I feel sorry for Jill. She's married to an embarrassing asshole, completely financially & emotionally dependent (without a group of unconditionally-loving supporters) and is ill-equipped to decide if this is the type of life she wants to be living.

I've learned we can't tell anything about a person's life from pictures. There are people that have serious problems in life that post the happiest, most envious photos on Instagram/FB and people would never have known. Some people do it to cope with their unhappy lives as in, "If I fake being happy, acting like I'm the most beautiful person alive, pretending we love each other, faking that we're rich, everyone will compliment me on it in the comments and maybe I'll feel better about myself". It doesn't work. The comments serve as a band-aid to forget the pain of living an unhappy life without making hard changes.

What makes a person independent? It's not simply being an able-bodied 18+ year old adult.

Also, people could've once been independent and NOW, NO LONGER ARE... There are women that formerly held jobs that they LOVED and quit them for their husband (and kids) only to, decades later, find themselves miserable and/or divorced and are now unable to find work. It's completely tragic. 

On another topic, companies need to eliminate age-discrimination along with racial discrimination, promote women, hire women, and hire former stay-at-home mothers. Also, companies need to STOP finding ways to "get rid of" (or demote) pregnant women and women of child-bearing age!!! (Yes, it's personal to me). CHANGES NEED TO BE MADE...

[mollysmom]

4 minutes ago, luv2laugh said:

There are even women in marriages that ARE NOT abusive (yet are unhappy) that want to leave but don't because they feel too emotionally enmeshed and financially dependent on their husbands to do it. Some of these women leave the house, get a job to make ends meet, etc. but not all can. Many are victims of learned helplessness. There are people that ARE  UNHAPPY  but believe they'll never be independent, no one else will ever love them, they won't be able to survive, have social anxiety, etc.

I, myself, have been in a relationship where I felt that way about myself. I knew things weren't improving, was unhappy, but still loved the person and felt no one else would ever love me.

 

This was very well put and you have just described me to a "T". I stayed in an unhappy marriage for about 15 years because of this. I've been on my own for 2 years but I'm still terrified and very much emotionally dependent on my ex husband. I'm terrified that no one else will ever love/want me. I (like many people) live paycheck to paycheck and I'm very aware of the fact that if I miss just one week of work, I'm screwed financially. It's something I have to work on every day of my life. I lay awake at night worrying about these things, yet at the same time, I know that I made the right decision for myself and that in the end it will hopefully work out. 

[luv2laugh]

6 minutes ago, mollysmom said:

This was very well put and you have just described me to a "T". I stayed in an unhappy marriage for about 15 years because of this. I've been on my own for 2 years but I'm still terrified and very much emotionally dependent on my ex husband. I'm terrified that no one else will ever love/want me. I (like many people) live paycheck to paycheck and I'm very aware of the fact that if I miss just one week of work, I'm screwed financially. It's something I have to work on every day of my life. I lay awake at night worrying about these things, yet at the same time, I know that I made the right decision for myself and that in the end it will hopefully work out. 

I want to hug you and let you know you're not alone. I'm going through an unhappy situation for similar reasons and I'm working on getting past the learned helplessness so I can empower myself to be independent and in a position where I can decide if this is who truly I want to be with.

I'm so sorry this is happening to you and I want you to know that even though it's hard and I'm a worrier as well, keeping thinking positive until you believe in power of positivity because things are going to get better for you. Yes, it's ok that we keep telling ourselves that (even if we don't believe it) and it's necessary because it's the truth. Things will get better.

A wise person recently told me, "It's not falling off the boat that will kill you, it's staying in the water."
 

[MargaretElliott]

43 minutes ago, luv2laugh said:

There are people that ARE  UNHAPPY  but believe they'll never be independent, no one else will ever love them, they won't be able to survive, have social anxiety, etc.

Bruh.

This was me a bit less than two years ago. Luckily I didn't marry the guy, though we were together for five years, and he wasn't even really a bad guy, just really bad for me. I refer to the last three or four years of that relationship as my "hole." I fell in a dark hole of loneliness and anxiety, and I thought I couldn't leave, that I could never escape. But my current SO reached his hand out to me and pulled me out of that hole, and all of a sudden... I was alive again. And even now, though I am incredibly happy with him, I know that I can survive without him, that I am my own person, that I can be independent, I can have friends and go out and do things I couldn't do when I was in that hole.

I hope Jana or Jill isn't in that hole (not because of any concern for them personally), because it's the worst feeling I've ever felt. Being so trapped, so afraid, so unhappy, and you feel you can't change it... Even if I find their beliefs abhorrent, I wouldn't wish that on anyone.

[justmy2cents]

18 hours ago, Kelsey said:

This question will (likely) be answered when Jana marries. Who does she choose to stand beside her, Jill, Jessa, does she go rogue and choose a non-sister like Laura who appears to be her actual best friend or Anna?

My bet is on Michelle. She raved about Michelle being her best friend on her own birthday. The woman who taught her everything. 

[luv2laugh]

49 minutes ago, justmy2cents said:

My bet is on Michelle. She raved about Michelle being her best friend on her own birthday. The woman who taught her everything. 

Agreed.

The Duggars, in some ways, remind me of my Grandfather's family. My Grandpa had a little brother, Johnny, who was seriously handsome, as in a "Sinatra or Elvis level" handsome (trying not to sound creepy here). Women always wanted to date him. His mother would not let them get near "her baby".

In fact, she resented my Grandma for marrying one of her sons SO MUCH that she was openly racist against her (my Grandma's Sicilian Italian and her MIL was Irish), would give one of her kids ("Irish-looking" one) a beautiful present and the other two sad, boring ones to stir up family drama, made fun of the ones that looked "Italian" like my Grandma compared to "the Irish one", and it got to the point that my Grandpa never saw her again until she was near death. Also, one of the brothers was dating a woman (whom he later married) and the mother poured a bucket of water all over him before he took her out for a date. She did NOT want her sons leaving her.

The baby, Johnny, (the most handsome one) never left. He became isolated, socially awkward, and my aunts always referred to him as "the dorky Uncle Johnny". After his mother died, he tragically died alone. He was convinced that it was his obligation to care for his parents, (specifically his mother) and became emotionally enmeshed in that unhealthy environment. 

Additionally, my Grandfather was an Ivy-league educated engineer but his upbringing harmed him so much that he became an abusive alcoholic (my Grandmother was able to divorce him). My Grandfather died by himself in a studio apartment and ended up mostly having the wealthy brother (not the baby)  support him financially. The wealthy brother had a late life crisis and divorced his wife, that he weathered her cancer battles with, for a new younger woman and has basically cut off contact with family.

It's so dark and tragic what co-dependency and dysfunctional family environments can do to people... These are situations that can affect people for life. I'm not saying the Duggars have co-dependecy or any family issues at all but I'm sharing a dark story of what codepenency and enmeshment can do to families.

The "baby" of the family, Johnny, did not live a happy, healthy, independent life. His mother guilted him and influenced him in a harmful way. His own limited expectations of his capabilities and learned helplessness trapped him in a hole he was never able to escape in order to become emotionally independent. 

It's beautiful when children want to take on responsibilities for caring for younger siblings and older parents in the home but it's important that parents encourage them to have their own, independent lives. Parents need to make sure that kids are truly making their own decisions, even as adults.

 

[DundeeUnFundie]

While I agree that Derek does not appear to be the best husband, I'm actually not going to place the whole blame on him for Jill's isolation. Jill's made comments (I think at Joy's wedding?) about how your husband is everything and friendships are not as important as your husband. She chose to leave Counting On to show solidarity with her husband despite it being (from what we can tell) the main source of income for the family. I would say that indicates that she still believes her husband should come first to her over financial security and support of her friends and family, and people don't tend to like being treated poorly because someone else is on a pedestal.

As for Jana, I don't know. I think now she has instagram, we might see a lot more of her life but that might end up challenging a lot of previously accepted ideas about her. We'll see what happens.

[JordynDarby5]

18 hours ago, HarleyQuinn said:

I always got the feeling Jana and Jill hung out while they were younger for necessity rather than actually enjoying each other. They were the oldest daughters. The way Jill immediately was like "I'm engaged, Jana, be my sewing slave" kind of ran that one home for me. 

So did I. They didn't seem to have anything in common or the bond that Jessa and Jinger seem to have. Jana definitely didn't want to chaperone Jill when she was studying to be a midwife. Which I know its not Jill's fault but their stupid parents.

51 minutes ago, DundeeUnFundie said:

While I agree that Derek does not appear to be the best husband, I'm actually not going to place the whole blame on him for Jill's isolation. Jill's made comments (I think at Joy's wedding?) about how your husband is everything and friendships are not as important as your husband. She chose to leave Counting On to show solidarity with her husband despite it being (from what we can tell) the main source of income for the family. I would say that indicates that she still believes her husband should come first to her over financial security and support of her friends and family, and people don't tend to like being treated poorly because someone else is on a pedestal.

As for Jana, I don't know. I think now she has instagram, we might see a lot more of her life but that might end up challenging a lot of previously accepted ideas about her. We'll see what happens.

I remember Jill making that remark. She didn't seem to care or that torn up about dropping friendships. But I can also see just from Jill's personality how it might be hard to friends with her. If she talked over her friends and corrected their answers like she did with her sisters while acting like she knew everything and always sure she's right. Also if she really was a tattletale. That's not exactly an easy person to be around. Although she does seem to have kept up with buddies which is surprising and nice.

[JordynDarby5]

On ‎1‎/‎15‎/‎2019 at 8:14 PM, Anna Bolinas said:

Honestly, he always struck me as someone who was perfectly happy to be a fundie, so long as his desire to indulge in "worldliness" was excused. And for a long time, all his indiscretions were excused. He got to be a fundie darling, have a perfect fundie wife and perfect fundie family, and still have "fun" on the side. If the scandals hadn't broken, I honestly think he'd be attempting to break into politics and would still be the same smug, condescending asshole from the early Duggar specials. I feel like he's annoyed now that he got caught and he can't reap the benefits of both the fundie and non-fundie worlds. So now he's just sulking around because he's a punchline at best to non-fundie people and a liability to fundies who want to present a pretty face to the outside world.

If I could like this a million times I would. That's how he's always struck me too. He gets to do whatever he wants with zero consequences. Its not like his wife is going to up and leave him because he cheated on her. Its not like had to deal with any real consequences for molesting 5 girls. He gets fawned over and praised for what a great Christian he is. Held up as an example to everyone. He got the perfect family and still got to have fun. His sisters did everything for him cooking, cleaning and laundry even after he molested them. Who had to forgive him. Two who ended up going on TV defending him. He's lazy, barely educated and was handed the car lot which he did badly. Cause you know work and Josh don't go together. He got handed a much bigger job at FRC despite zero qualifications. He's gotten handed everything and allowed to get out of everything. Nothing is his fault. He reaped all the rewards. He even got to accuse other groups of being molesters. He was perfectly happy, smug, fundie asshole. And wishes he still was except for the evil media who was out to get him. It was their fault you know and not his own (and his parents).  

[luv2laugh]

3 hours ago, DundeeUnFundie said:

While I agree that Derek does not appear to be the best husband, I'm actually not going to place the whole blame on him for Jill's isolation. Jill's made comments (I think at Joy's wedding?) about how your husband is everything and friendships are not as important as your husband. She chose to leave Counting On to show solidarity with her husband despite it being (from what we can tell) the main source of income for the family. I would say that indicates that she still believes her husband should come first to her over financial security and support of her friends and family, and people don't tend to like being treated poorly because someone else is on a pedestal.

As for Jana, I don't know. I think now she has instagram, we might see a lot more of her life but that might end up challenging a lot of previously accepted ideas about her. We'll see what happens.

Jill has been brainwashed and is ill-equipped, at this time, to make the steps necessary for independence. She has no other choice but to support Derick unless she finds the courage to break free, completely alone. She is mentally trapped and right now, it’s easier for her to desperately attempt to force herself to believe she’s happy rather than make hard changes.

[Tatar-tot]

Comparing the Duggar children to the Turpins is just sickening.  Please do not make that analogy again.  

[luv2laugh]

2 hours ago, Tatar-tot said:

Comparing the Duggar children to the Turpins is just sickening.  Please do not make that analogy again.  

You completely misunderstood what I wrote. I made it pretty clear that I was comparing adult children living with their parents and why some will not leave, whether they are happy and living healthy lives or whether they are suffering as in the case case of the Turpins. Many times, it’s due to significant emotional attachments to others within the family and perceived obligations. The Turpin adult children are a completely unrelated, extreme example of adult children suffering immense abuse despite (all except one) not leaving the situation. In fact, I emphasized that I was not at all implying that the Duggars have been abused and actually stated that it’s possible the Duggars adult children are content and are not emotionally enmeshed within the family.

Feel free to include your own example of adult children living with their parents that are living happy, healthy lives along with a polar opposite, unrelated example of adult children living with their parents that are not living happy, healthy lives. We can discuss the adult children in the Maxwell family or plenty of other fundie families, however we have no idea if they are not content as they very well could be living happy and healthy lives, as many are.

Jana definitely appears to be living a happy, healthy, and overall content life and we’ll never know if she’s unhappy unless she decides to explain it. I’d assume she’s frustrated by the public’s constant speculation over why she is not married, given her culture’s norm of early marriage, and I feel for her. It must stink to have people question it whether you’re completely content without being married or not.

[luv2laugh]

3 hours ago, luv2laugh said:

Jill has been brainwashed and is ill-equipped, at this time, to make the steps necessary for independence. She has no other choice but to support Derick unless she finds the courage to break free, completely alone. She is mentally trapped and right now, it’s easier for her to desperately attempt to force herself to believe she’s happy rather than make hard changes.

Also, I want to add that it’s possible Jill IS happy and content with being Derick’s wife similar to how it’s possible Anna Duggar is happy with Josh as well as Jana being happy. We will never know if they are happy or not. However, IF they are unhappy, it’s very difficult for them to leave and it usually takes a long time for them as they first need to make a decision to change something and then work towards a path of independence. Many partners that find themselves no longer happy in their relationships or marriages go through a period of self-doubt and trying to convince themselves and others that they are happy.

Compared to Derick, I personally always hesitate to criticize Jill because I don’t know if she’s actually happy with him. I could imagine she, being a people pleaser and one who admired a future husband being akin to that of JB, is humiliated by his controversial public outbursts and frequent confrontation. She must have felt embarrassed by the some of Bates unfollowing him and if any family members disagreed with him. We don’t even know if Jill wanted to leave TLC (she cried on Fox News to save the show at one point). Personally, I view her “best hubby ever” posts as her attempting to repair his image and convince other people to love him as much as she believes she does right now. Perhaps she feels Derick will change one day and not be confrontational.