Josh, Anna, and M'kids part 18: The Prodigal Son Returneth

[Jinder Roles]

@Rachel333 I understand what your saying, and you’ve caused me to think about this for a bit.

I guess bitch seems less serious to me because I don’t think it has ever carried the same oppressive weight as other  slurs (i.e: the n word or f word). No doubt it’s been used misogynistically, but idk, it’s just not as severe. But I could just be ignorant of that information. 

I think I also slightly disagree with women calling other women bitches always being internalized misogyny. Even when it’s used as an insult, because we’re all in the same boat (in terms of being on the receiving end of sexism) But I respect your opinion. 

I think bitch is on the same level as hoe for me. 

[SilverBeach]

9 hours ago, Rachel333 said:

I don't know, I guess since I don't use it I've never needed a substitute.

I just really hate misogynist language and I think women can decide for themselves if they personally are okay with it but I think it's very offensive to use it towards other women who may not be okay being called sexist insults. I don't think we get to reclaim words for other people.

I'm saying for those who do curse and say bitch, what word would be equally effective but not sexist? You don't have to use it to know the meaning it is intended to convey. Actually, I don't give a fuck if the person I am calling a bitch is okay with it or not. I don't think many people are okay with being insulted no matter what word is used! If someone has done something to piss me so badly that I want to curse them, their feelings are the last thing I am concerned with. Not sure I know what you mean by reclaiming words for other people, I don't see a general prohibition against bitch, such as with the n-word. I am hardly a misogynist and hate actual misogyny, and don't know that I consider bitch misogynist language. Pay women equally and stop sexual assault, those matter to me. Don't like the word don't use it, but to infer that those who do use it are somehow misogynistic is a bit much. Like I always say, to each her own.

[SilverBeach]

16 minutes ago, Jinder Roles said:

I think I also slightly disagree with women calling other women bitches always being internalized misogyny.

It's not. Interestingly enough, I don't use bitch in a friendly, joking context, it is a pejorative, angry term for me and sounds too hostile when used between friends. I think friendship is a less appropriate context for using the word, and I cringe a bit when I hear it being used that way. I'm black and feel the same when the n-word is used in friendly banter. But again, to each her own.

[SilverBeach]

Just now, Rachel333 said:

when I'm talking about reclaiming words for others, I'm talking about when people use a slur towards other people and say they're reclaiming it. I think reclaiming slurs is valid when you're using it to refer to yourself, but you can't decide for other people that they need to reclaim it too.

Of course you can't! This is the same discussion we black people have about the n-word.  I guess bastard is out too, since it specifically insults men.

 

Just now, Rachel333 said:

I really don't think it's my responsibility to find someone a non-sexist way to insult women.

No one said it was, and that is not the point.  I'm not insulting women when I curse at a woman I am insulting that specific woman for a valid reason! It would be a wonderful world if people never insulted anyone, especially women since I am one, but that ain't gonna happen. We are going to have to agree to disagree that calling a woman a bitch who I dislike for whatever reason is sexist. Not coming from me. Bitch shouldn't have fucked with me if she doesn't want to be called a bitch.

[SilverBeach]

32 minutes ago, Jinder Roles said:

I think bitch is on the same level as hoe for me. 

Me too. I guess hoe is a gendered insult too. I don't really use hoe much, as I feel women can be as sexually free as they want to and shoudn't be insulted because of it when men aren't subject to the same standard. 

[Texas Heifer]

10 hours ago, HerNameIsBuffy said:

I feel the same, only bothers me when leveled at dogs.  

I usually think of asshole as something said to men, idk why.  Fucker is completely gender neutral for me so that's handy when i can't see who is driving the car that pissed me off.

I love cursing. Love it. My husband does, too, and yet comes up with creative curses that have no curse words (like "son of a mule-bonking monkey" or similar. I know he has used "baboon's urine" in them more than once). Fucker/fucked/fucking--I adore the F word, it's so versatile, and it makes me feel like the badass that I most definitely am not.

However. *sob*

We have a baby nephew who is learning to talk, and we are around him a LOT. This may or may not be the reason I have recently started bellowing, "JERK!" or "YOU...TURKEY!" in traffic.

?

[MarblesMom]

I prefer "asswipe" when referring to others on the road.

 

[SilverBeach]

Time to watch Madam Secretary. Is that sexist, to refer to a woman Secretary of State as Madam? I like the show regardless. In my 63 years, I have refused to let others limit or define me as a woman or black person. I raised my daughter to be the same way. I fully embrace these aspects of myself, not a drop of internalized misogyny here. When somebody calls me a bitch I embrace it, damn right, not taking your shit or anybody else's.

I call folks heifers sometime, but that presents the same problem as bitch. No female cow has ever done anything to me! One term I do wish would permanently exit the lexicon is FAT bitch. I'm fat, and if you want to face some misogyny try being a fat woman in the workplace or hell just in society.

I'm just going to stay in the house from now on so nobody can piss me off and I won't have to think about how I'm going to respond. I do have a bit of a temper.

[Rachel333]

The thing is, words aren't exactly the same in all contexts. There are some nasty slurs that have other meanings that are completely innocent. With any slur it's very different when two people who are typically targets of that slur use it jokingly with each other as opposed to when someone else uses it in a mean way because of the target's identity.

With "bitch," my dad is very conservative about language but he used it growing up because to him it was innocent when used in the sense of "complain." He says that he would even hear little old ladies in his conservative church use it that way. I also don't have a problem with friends using it playfully with each other, or with people joking about RBF.

Where I do have a problem is when people use it because there's a woman they dislike and they want to be mean. When people are being genuinely mean I still only hear it used towards women or men perceived as feminine. Or when you look at how people use it towards women like Hillary Clinton it's pretty clear that they're using it because she's a woman.

I get that people aren't going to stop using it even that way, but I do think it's reasonable to be offended by that context, and I find it pretty frustrating that when I talk about it, no matter how clear I am that I don't care about the less severe uses, people act like those uses are the ones I'm talking about.

@Jinder Roles Just to be clear, I never said it's always internalized misogyny! I really don't have an issue with two people who are on the receiving end of a slur using it playfully with each other as long as they're both okay with it. Using it as an insult because the person they're insulting is a woman is a different matter. (And I'd probably just call it "misogyny," as it's directed at another woman.)

I actually didn't care much about it at all until I went through group therapy with a bunch of women who have been abused (seriously, there was one day the conversation turned to abuse, and every single one of the women in the room except me had been abused by men in some way... it was very eye opening) and I heard some of them talk about how upsetting they find the word "bitch." It's an incredibly popular word with abusive men, and while I didn't use the word as an insult before that, it really made me more sensitive to the word.

Edit: This is frustrating. FJ isn't letting me post for another hour -- I think something got messed up when it was briefly offline and it reposted a previously submitted post.

@SilverBeach, when I'm talking about reclaiming words for others, I'm talking about when people use a slur towards other people and say they're reclaiming it. I think reclaiming slurs is valid when you're using it to refer to yourself, but you can't decide for other people that they need to reclaim it too.

I really don't think it's my responsibility to find someone a non-sexist way to insult women. If "bitch" is something someone uses specifically use to insult women (and from posters saying they use a different word to insult people if they can't tell the person's gender, it does sound like they're using it for women specifically) then I do think that's sexist and I really don't care how much the person dislikes the woman. The whole reason I brought this up is because other people were talking about how just because we dislike female fundies doesn't mean it's okay to to say things that are harmful to women and I similarly don't think it's okay to insult women I dislike with words that are used just because they're a woman. It's not something that bothers me so much that I will speak up about it every time I see it, but it does bother me.

Also, to clarify, I don't think that just because a woman does or says something I view as unfeminist makes her a misogynist or not a feminist. I don't think any feminist is going to be perfect, and I think living in a misogynist society means that it's really difficult to eliminate all misogynist views from our thoughts. And while I obviously have a problem with the things I've been discussing, it's actually pretty low on the list of things I care about.

[Rachel333]

Can I post now?  (Edit: sort of -- I at least can make a new post now, but it still brought up my old post... hopefully it doesn't keep following me everywhere!)

I actually personally rarely use insults at all unless someone is truly terrible. I'll swear online, but in person almost never; it's just not something that comes naturally to me. It's really irritating sometimes that when I do swear people notice more; for example there have been multiple times when I just quoted someone swearing, including words as mild as "damn," and people said how shocked they were to hear me swear at all. 

[HerNameIsBuffy]

2 minutes ago, Rachel333 said:

Can I post now?  (Edit: sort of -- I at least can make a new post now, but it still brought up my old post... hopefully it doesn't keep following me everywhere!)

I actually personally rarely use insults at all unless someone is truly terrible. I'll swear online, but in person almost never; it's just not something that comes naturally to me. It's really irritating sometimes that when I do swear people notice more; for example there have been multiple times when I just quoted someone swearing, including words as mild as "damn," and people said how shocked they were to hear me swear at all. 

You should have an option to clear the edit box when that happens.   It happens on occasion and usually just clearing it once or twice corrects the problem.

[Rachel333]

1 minute ago, HerNameIsBuffy said:

You should have an option to clear the edit box when that happens.   It happens on occasion and usually just clearing it once or twice corrects the problem.

It doesn't show my old post in the edit box, I meant that when I posted a new post my old post was moved to be just above my new post. It was originally the top post on this page but it kept being moved down.

Edit: That didn't happen this time!

[HerNameIsBuffy]

3 minutes ago, Rachel333 said:

It doesn't show my old post in the edit box, I meant that when I posted a new post my old post was moved to be just above my new post. It was originally the top post on this page but it kept being moved down.

Edit: That didn't happen this time!

Oh ... weird.  Let me know if it happens again - thanks.

[Rachel333]

7 minutes ago, HerNameIsBuffy said:

Oh ... weird.  Let me know if it happens again - thanks.

It seems okay now! I just tried to submit a post exactly when FJ went briefly online (once I saw it wasn't going through I copied it), then when it came back I saw that there was a new post but it was exactly the same as the one I made a few minutes earlier, so I edited and replaced it with the post I tried to make before. Then every time I tried to make a new post it said I had to wait a few thousand more seconds so instead I kept editing the previous post. Then every time someone else posted a new post my post moved down to look like the newest post even though it wasn't. Just a weird glitch that seems to be resolved now, but that's why the post sequence on this page is a little off!

[Mama Mia]

My thoughts on gendered swearing :

1- I am old, I can not get used to women saying “ suck my dick” when angry. Even though it is has been a very popular phrase with young women I know, for at least a decade. 

2- In Trumps infamous Access Hollywood Type, What the hell is it supposed to mean when he says “ I moved on her like a bitch”?????  I absolutely don’t understand what that even implies. 

3. - It is ho, not hoe. 

4-It’s funny to hear kids versions of what swear words are. My daughter and I were recently talking, one of her kids says “ Mom! You used the “ c” word! “ We looked at each other confused, because we were pretty sure she did not. Turns out the “c” word was “crap”. 

5- I have worked with some women who are world class swearers. It doesn’t bother me. I swear a fair amount, but it’s all pretty boring. 

 

[Rachel333]

9 minutes ago, Mama Mia said:

In Trumps infamous Access Hollywood Type, What the hell is it supposed to mean when he says “ I moved on her like a bitch”?????  I absolutely don’t understand what that even implies. 

No idea! I've never heard anyone else use it that way. He also uses "like a dog" quite often, which sounds weird to me as well. Here is a long list of examples: https://www.thecut.com/2018/08/everyone-donald-trump-has-called-a-dog.html

[Shadoewolf]

Didn't the women saying "suck my dick" come off the heels of it being a major line in the movie G.I. Jane? Which I kinda love watching once or twice a year...

[Mama Mia]

14 minutes ago, Rachel333 said:

No idea! I've never heard anyone else use it that way. He also uses "like a dog" quite often, which sounds weird to me as well. Here is a long list of examples: https://www.thecut.com/2018/08/everyone-donald-trump-has-called-a-dog.html

So weird. I’m really half convinced Trump is just an elaborate piece of performance art. 

4 minutes ago, Shadoewolf said:

Didn't the women saying "suck my dick" come off the heels of it being a major line in the movie G.I. Jane? Which I kinda love watching once or twice a year...

Is that where it came from? I had no idea! Great movie.

[Rachel333]

4 minutes ago, Mama Mia said:

So weird. I’m really half convinced Trump is just an elaborate piece of performance art. 

That's almost easier to believe than the idea that we have a president who tweets things like this:

 

[WhatWouldJohnCrichtonDo?]

1 hour ago, Mama Mia said:

So weird. I’m really half convinced Trump is just an elaborate piece of performance art. 

You reminded me of this:

Spoiler

 

[Rachel333]

In the months following the 2016 election I kept having this feeling (induced by my heavy sci-fi consumption, no doubt ) that I was stuck in the "wrong" alternate reality and in some parallel universe a different me was living a normal, Trump-free life with no idea how bizarre things could have become. I wish our current situation were confined to "what if Trump won" speculation rather than being reality.

[HurricaneBells]

Thats quite interesting, the bitch discussion. I cant think of a single instance in my life where I have been called or called someone else a bitch and had that kind of connentation to it. To my generation at least, that shit was for rappers and movies but we never really adopted it and we had/have far better insults to throw. 

Here in Oz its more along the lines of a woman being haughty/rude/stuckup/mean on its own. The word itself is no particular insult because if you are a bitch you wont care lolbut I think maybe its used singulary more in America for the misogynist meaning where we also tend to use it for emphasis, ugly bitch, dumb bitch etc, so the prefix is then the insult not the bitch part. Then you know how much we mean it. LOL 

It is not gendered in we dont call guys bitches but, calling a guy a bitch would be mean being a whinger or afraid of something so, not the same. 

I love these convo's on fj and seeing the differences in experiences and the different ways we all think. 

[Playagirl]

19 hours ago, Mama Mia said:

And on the flip side - one of my girls is just naturally tiny. It works HER nerves when people are either “eat, eat, eat! You must be starving yourself!” or - “omg, I hate that you’re so skinnny, I’m so jealous.” 

Just let people be. 

THANK YOU!!!!! I was always extremely thin, very small-boned, under 100 pounds, bra size between AA and A.  I ate like a horse but just was naturally thin with very little body fat.  Within 6 weeks of giving birth I was back to my pre-pregnancy weight without even trying.

I spent my younger adulthood constantly hearing crap like what your daughter hears, or versions of it.  I must be sick, or have an eating disorder, or don't eat enough, or I should try to gain weight as I don't look healthy. I even had a couple of well-meaning people tell me that I should consider breast implants. Now that I'm going through menopause I'm gaining weight for the first time in my life and am having alot of trouble dealing with it. I've gained about 12 pounds over the past several years, all in my stomach. It doesn't sound like much but on my very small frame it really really shows. Now my gut sticks out way farther than my boobs. I eat way less than I used to but can't shed the weight. Now I get comments like, 'well, you finally know how the rest of us feel.  Ha, ha, it's about time. Better watch your weight. What happened to you? There are ab exercises online you can do.' Alot of it is said in a joking manner but it still hurts.

All this to say, as women we really can't win when it comes to our bodies. We're always seen as being somehow less than whatever warped ideal of perfection that has been set as our standard. I try very very hard not to judge other people's bodies. Behaviour? Yes, absolutely. Body shape and size? Hell no.

[SapphireSlytherin]

12 hours ago, BernRul said:

-I don't curse at people I don't know

Whooooo-boy. You'd better not get in my car with me when I'm driving then... 

4 hours ago, Rachel333 said:

In the months following the 2016 election I kept having this feeling (induced by my heavy sci-fi consumption, no doubt ) that I was stuck in the "wrong" alternate reality and in some parallel universe a different me was living a normal, Trump-free life with no idea how bizarre things could have become. I wish our current situation were confined to "what if Trump won" speculation rather than being reality.

I ask my husband every day if we're being  punked. Every.Damn.Day.

 

[singsingsing]

3 minutes ago, SapphireSlytherin said:

I ask my husband every day if we're being  punked. Every.Damn.Day.

I'm like 55% convinced that we're living in a simulation.