Decriminilizing domestic violence

[debrand]

Domestic violence is wrong no matter what the sex of the victim or the abuser.

I'm still in shock that domestic violence is a misdemanor. How is that possible?

[Rachel333]

I don't think anyone thinks it's easy to leave, just that there are more options if you do leave. I know it's often really difficult to get out of those situations.

I think it's a problem when people focus on men and ignore the mostly female victims, which is what I feel like a lot of the "men's rights" advocates do, but I think it's different when someone brings up that men can suffer, too. A lot of people genuinely don't realize that, and even though men are in the minority, they obviously matter too. Like many people, I know a man who was a victim of domestic violence, and no one around him recognized it, while I think they would have if he was a woman. It took him a long time to get over the embarrassment of admitting that he was abused by a woman to finally tell someone about his situation.

The prevalence of domestic violence among Gay and Lesbian couples is approximately 25 - 33%.

Barnes, It's Just a Quarrel', American Bar Association Journal, February 1998, p. 25.

Wow, does that mean that there is domestic violence in 25-33% of gay and lesbian couples? That's way higher than I would have thought. Do you know the prevalence among straight couples?

[debrand]

Um, who here has "no sympathy for a DV victim period"?

As for teh wimmens and their thousands of options compared to poor oppressed men, DV victims have really complicated mindsets. My relative grew up seeing her dad beating her mum and then when her dad left, her brother took on the mum beating role. When she was beaten in her turn, that was normal for her. The partner who beat her and eventually killed her had witnessed his father beat his mother for most of his childhood.

Like you can just walk away if you have a pair of tits and it is a completely uncomplicated decision.

A relative of mine grew up in a home where her father constantly belittled her mom. She ended up in a physically abusive marriage. It was very difficult to convince her to leave her spouse. She was afraid of him but she had also absorbed the lesson that being disrespectful is normal male behavior. :cry:

[Alecto]

Specifically however (not to you directly of course) was how many women are in their graves due to men attacking them and how many men are in their graves due to women attacking them. I am prepared to bet there's a huge differential and it's not women killing men.

The statistics presented earlier showed it was not a huge gap, at least in the United States. However, men are more likely to kill using violent means while women are more likely to kill using poison. To me, it's all the same.

What has me upset here is that we are still so focused on PARTNER abuse, when domestic violence encompasses so much more. To tie it back to fundies - if Daddy Fundie hits his adult, but still living at home, daughter or son - that is domestic violence, and that needs to be just as prosecuted.

I am curious in this particular state - are their misdemeanor and felony domestic battery laws? I know in Arkansas their are both, and the misdemeanor prosecutions that I have experienced usually are when the incident is mutual, such as two family members getting into a fist fight.

[ChickeyMonkey]

I have a legal question that maybe someone here can answer, I hope?

So, DV is considered a misdemeanor. What about assault and battery? Is that a felony or a misdemeanor as well? Because I'm thinking, if they take away the cases pf DV as misdemeanor, can it be changed from DV to assault and battery? Are there guidelines that categorize one crime as an assault and battery and another as DV?

Can that be one way to get around the "DV is a misdemeanor and we're getting rid of those"? I mean, if you can be charged with assault for throwing glitter at someone (and later have the charges dropped), wouldn't punching, hitting, kicking, biting, etc. be just as much - if not MORE - of an assault as getting glitter-bombed?

[debrand]

I have a legal question that maybe someone here can answer, I hope?

So, DV is considered a misdemeanor. What about assault and battery? Is that a felony or a misdemeanor as well? Because I'm thinking, if they take away the cases pf DV as misdemeanor, can it be changed from DV to assault and battery? Are there guidelines that categorize one crime as an assault and battery and another as DV?

Can that be one way to get around the "DV is a misdemeanor and we're getting rid of those"? I mean, if you can be charged with assault for throwing glitter at someone (and later have the charges dropped), wouldn't punching, hitting, kicking, biting, etc. be just as much - if not MORE - of an assault as getting glitter-bombed?

I was wondering about what constitutes a misdemeanor also. If I walk up to a perfect stranger and punch that person in the face, would that be a misdemeanor?

[teddybear]

Rant away! :D

I listen to CNN while I'm getting ready in the morning, and there was talk this morning about breast cancer and how breast cancer strikes women more, but men get breast cancer, too, and then went on to describe the ways that men should be checking for this.

I thought about that when I started reading this post. Both genders can get breast cancer and we should be working and researching to eradicate it in everyone, even though most breast cancer sufferers are women.

Now I'm just using this as a general analogy. I have not googled the statistics, as that is not really the point. My point is that when a horrible thing afflicts people of either gender, we should, as a society, stand against it in all its forms.

I found a lump in one of my breasts some time back. My doctor ordered a mammogram and you should have seen all the hoops I had to jump through to get my insurance company to pay for it because I wasn't a woman!

[BlackHawk]

Um, who here has "no sympathy for a DV victim period"?

As for teh wimmens and their thousands of options compared to poor oppressed men, DV victims have really complicated mindsets. My relative grew up seeing her dad beating her mum and then when her dad left, her brother took on the mum beating role. When she was beaten in her turn, that was normal for her. The partner who beat her and eventually killed her had witnessed his father beat his mother for most of his childhood.

Like you can just walk away if you have a pair of tits and it is a completely uncomplicated decision.

Oh Jesus Christ on a cracker, you went there, didn't you? What about the poor menz?! :roll: The rate at which men are victims of DV compared to women is negligible. And men have about a zillion more options for getting out then women do. I have zero sympathy.

I do believe the bold part of Deelaem's quote is to imply she has no sympathy for a dv victim.

I'm not saying men are oppressed. I'm saying ANY violence should be noted and to mention men does not make you a part of the He-man woman haters club. No one is saying the decision is EASY for anyone, no one is saying just because you have tits you can just get up and go. You are sensationalizing what people have said and making it into what you want it to be, and that's just not the case here.

The story you told is very sad, it is horrible, it should not happen. PERIOD. It doesn't matter who was the victim nor what was the attacker, it should not happen. That is what we should be fighting against. Instead of fighting each other on who hate men more, or who is a man loving woman hater, we should be focusing on taking care of the problem.

[CanadianHippie]

I do believe the bold part of Deelaem's quote is to imply she has no sympathy for a dv victim.

I'm not saying men are oppressed. I'm saying ANY violence should be noted and to mention men does not make you a part of the He-man woman haters club. No one is saying the decision is EASY for anyone, no one is saying just because you have tits you can just get up and go. You are sensationalizing what people have said and making it into what you want it to be, and that's just not the case here.

The story you told is very sad, it is horrible, it should not happen. PERIOD. It doesn't matter who was the victim nor what was the attacker, it should not happen. That is what we should be fighting against. Instead of fighting each other on who hate men more, or who is a man loving woman hater, we should be focusing on taking care of the problem.

You may have missed a word, but it appears she has no sympathy for male victims because "They are teh menz and can take care of themselves". Which ironically enough is one of the reasons they have less options when it comes to support. Because they are teh menz and should be able to take care of themselves. They are men, not gods.

[CanadianHippie]

I found a lump in one of my breasts some time back. My doctor ordered a mammogram and you should have seen all the hoops I had to jump through to get my insurance company to pay for it because I wasn't a woman!

This is another thing that pisses me off. And heaven forbid you tell a layperson that men can get breast cancer. And that men are more likely to be diagnosed in later stages, which are harder to treat. They flip out because they think you're trying to take away from the "real issue". No, the real issue is that breast cancer is serious business and that everyone needs to keep an eye on themselves. It scares me to think how many men might be hiding the fact that their cancer was breast cancer too, if only because a male family member who has had breast cancer is a stronger indication of someones likelihood to get it than a female relative who has had breast cancer.

*Yeah I've googled statistics, that was the only one I could really pin down because men and breast cancer is like women and heart disease when it comes to research, most studies have completely ignored it*

[BlackHawk]

You may have missed a word, but it appears she has no sympathy for male victims because "They are teh menz and can take care of themselves". Which ironically enough is one of the reasons they have less options when it comes to support. Because they are teh menz and should be able to take care of themselves. They are men, not gods.

Nah I worded it that was on purpose. A male DV victim is still a DV victim. If she has zero sympathy for a male DV victim, she has zero sympathy for a DV victim.

[flojo]

My deep thoughts:

1) Intimate partner violence is overwhelmingly a crime perpetrated by men against women, using violence as a tool in order to keep women "in their place." When I worked in a shelter, I saw this narrative over and over again, enough to convince me that there is a distinctly misogynistic (woman-hating) characteristic to it. And the fact that Topeka is even considering decriminalizing it shows that the city council is unashamed in its woman-hating.

2) That being said, there ARE men who suffer intimate partner violence. And there is a distinct lack of resources to help them. The anti-violence community MUST respond to this. It was terrible to work a DV line and have a man call, scared for himself and his kids, and to be at a complete loss for resources. Part of this is the nature of the funding (the Violence Against Women Act was a massive step forward and must be protected, but I would like to see more resources for ALL victims of intimate partner violence). This includes victims of same-sex intimate partner violence, who also often face a lack of resources. HOWEVER, this does not detract from the fact that the vast majority of intimate partner violence is male-on-female violence.

3) Yes, I'm in on pillaging Topeka if this nonsense passes.

I totally agree.

Yes, most of the victims of domestic violence are women, of any orientation. I'm glad my tax dollars go toward women's shelters. I'm glad there are laws in place to protect female victims of domestic violence. I'm glad women have avenues to get out. I think there need to be more avenues and education for women. I think this law is primarily anti women, and one of the most horrific laws I have heard of passed.

However, not all domestic violence fits into a man on woman scenario. I am literally sickened by people who think it should be belitted or ignored. Not every case is cut and dry.

I have a brother with disabilities. My mother used to be married to a man who was domestically abusive. My mother couldn't access any shelters, because my brother was above the maximum age for a male (14). As he was dependent on her due to his disabilities, there was no shelter she could go to. I do believe it is wise not to allow boys/ men over a certain age into a shelter for women, because of the trauma a lot of women in them have suffered at the hands of men, but I think there does need to desperately be resources and places for people who do not fit into the neat box of "man being abusive toward woman with children". To dismiss them, or have "no sympathy" for them simply because they happen to be male, or not fit a traditional box, simply implies that DV is ok toward anyone outside of the traditional boxes.

[Alecto]

However, not all domestic violence fits into a man on woman scenario. I am literally sickened by people who think it should be belitted or ignored. Not every case is cut and dry.

I have a brother with disabilities. My mother used to be married to a man who was domestically abusive. My mother couldn't access any shelters, because my brother was above the maximum age for a male (14). As he was dependent on her due to his disabilities, there was no shelter she could go to. I do believe it is wise not to allow boys/ men over a certain age into a shelter for women, because of the trauma a lot of women in them have suffered at the hands of men, but I think there does need to desperately be resources and places for people who do not fit into the neat box of "man being abusive toward woman with children". To dismiss them, or have "no sympathy" for them simply because they happen to be male, or not fit a traditional box, simply implies that DV is ok toward anyone outside of the traditional boxes.

This kind of thing makes me angry. I would hope that a group that had to turn a family away from a shelter situation would at least provide other resources (job placement, finding other housing arrangements, legal counsel) but somehow I doubt that is the case.

[CanadianHippie]

Nah I worded it that was on purpose. A male DV victim is still a DV victim. If she has zero sympathy for a male DV victim, she has zero sympathy for a DV victim.

Unfortunately its not that black and white. She may have nothing but sympathy for female victims. She just doesn't give a shit about the men because of her narrow minded view of what men are. Just like someone can have sympathy for an abused wife but believe that children need to be beaten into submission.

[CanadianHippie]

This kind of thing makes me angry. I would hope that a group that had to turn a family away from a shelter situation would at least provide other resources (job placement, finding other housing arrangements, legal counsel) but somehow I doubt that is the case.

Unfortunately the resources for situations where one of the victims are a male over a certain age are exceedingly rare, if present at all. And it all goes back to the belief that men are never the victims and always the perpetrator.

[Austin]

This is another thing that pisses me off. And heaven forbid you tell a layperson that men can get breast cancer. And that men are more likely to be diagnosed in later stages, which are harder to treat. They flip out because they think you're trying to take away from the "real issue". No, the real issue is that breast cancer is serious business and that everyone needs to keep an eye on themselves. It scares me to think how many men might be hiding the fact that their cancer was breast cancer too, if only because a male family member who has had breast cancer is a stronger indication of someones likelihood to get it than a female relative who has had breast cancer.

*Yeah I've googled statistics, that was the only one I could really pin down because men and breast cancer is like women and heart disease when it comes to research, most studies have completely ignored it*

When I was referring to "google the statistics", I was referring comparing the percentage of dv victims who are men/women to the percentage of breast cancer victims who are men/women. I was trying to say that I was not trying to create a perfect analogy so the uber-literalists among us would not feel the need to come back and say, "Oh, but the percentages aren't the same!".

[Hisey]

How come no one has said this yet?

Men are physically stronger than women. I couldn't beat up my husband if I wanted to. On the other hand, he could do serious injury to me, or even kill me, if he were a violent person instead of the gentle man he is.

A woman beating up a man. . . .well, the man can generally stop her. Disarm her. Walk out of the house. A battered woman doesn't have these options. If her man is blocking the door, she is going nowhere.

I am sure there are men who are so beaten down by emotional abuse that they allow the women in their lives to physically abuse them. But I rarely hear of a man being beaten to death by a woman, or being put into the hopsital by a woman.

I grew up with domestic violence so I know the subject well. Believe me, if my mother had been as tall and as strong as my father, there'd have been little or no abuse in our house. Nor would there have been abuse towards the kids.

It's like having a chld who is hitting you. Yes, they can hurt you, if they get a few good shots in. But it's unlikely they can do serious damage. The power differential is just different.

It is the physical strength difference that makes DV so terrifying and so disempowering. Come on, ladies, would you rather take a punch in the face from a man or a woman? It's just not the same.

[CanadianHippie]

How come no one has said this yet?

Men are physically stronger than women. I couldn't beat up my husband if I wanted to. On the other hand, he could do serious injury to me, or even kill me, if he were a violent person instead of the gentle man he is.

A woman beating up a man. . . .well, the man can generally stop her. Disarm her. Walk out of the house. A battered woman doesn't have these options. If her man is blocking the door, she is going nowhere.

I am sure there are men who are so beaten down by emotional abuse that they allow the women in their lives to physically abuse them. But I rarely hear of a man being beaten to death by a woman, or being put into the hopsital by a woman.

I grew up with domestic violence so I know the subject well. Believe me, if my mother had been as tall and as strong as my father, there'd have been little or no abuse in our house. Nor would there have been abuse towards the kids.

It's like having a chld who is hitting you. Yes, they can hurt you, if they get a few good shots in. But it's unlikely they can do serious damage. The power differential is just different.

It is the physical strength difference that makes DV so terrifying and so disempowering. Come on, ladies, would you rather take a punch in the face from a man or a woman? It's just not the same.

Would you rather take a punch to the face or a frying pan? Because the one thing I do know statistics who is that women who are abusive are more likely to use weapons.

And you are forgetting that men are generally taught not to hurt women, most are so afraid of what would happen (like being labeled an abuser) if they defend themselves and end up hurting the woman that they feel their only option is to just take it. And of course reporting it is not on their radar because "men should be able to defend themselves against a woman."

[emmiedahl]

What about a gay man getting hurt by a much larger partner? An elderly man being beaten by his young and healthy daughter who also takes his SSI check every month and spends it at the casino? A 19 yo male with Down Syndrome who gets a spanking with a belt every time he wets the bed? These are all domestic violence against men.

Not all men are well-muscled adults in prime health.

[CanadianHippie]

What about a gay man getting hurt by a much larger partner? An elderly man being beaten by his young and healthy daughter who also takes his SSI check every month and spends it at the casino? A 19 yo male with Down Syndrome who gets a spanking with a belt every time he wets the bed? These are all domestic violence against men.

Not all men are well-muscled adults in prime health.

And not all women are weaker than the men in their lives.

[Alecto]

How come no one has said this yet?

Men are physically stronger than women. I couldn't beat up my husband if I wanted to. On the other hand, he could do serious injury to me, or even kill me, if he were a violent person instead of the gentle man he is.

A woman beating up a man. . . .well, the man can generally stop her. Disarm her. Walk out of the house. A battered woman doesn't have these options. If her man is blocking the door, she is going nowhere.

I am sure there are men who are so beaten down by emotional abuse that they allow the women in their lives to physically abuse them. But I rarely hear of a man being beaten to death by a woman, or being put into the hopsital by a woman.

I grew up with domestic violence so I know the subject well. Believe me, if my mother had been as tall and as strong as my father, there'd have been little or no abuse in our house. Nor would there have been abuse towards the kids.

It's like having a chld who is hitting you. Yes, they can hurt you, if they get a few good shots in. But it's unlikely they can do serious damage. The power differential is just different.

It is the physical strength difference that makes DV so terrifying and so disempowering. Come on, ladies, would you rather take a punch in the face from a man or a woman? It's just not the same.

Wow....

You know what? Domestic violence isn't about "beating someone to a pulp." One slap, one punch, one kick... it's all domestic violence. Throwing something at someone... hitting them with an object. Poisoning their food, or drugging them...

And truthfully, I'd rather take a punch from a man, because in general, it's usually just a punch. In my observations with women, there is usually far more to their violent acts.

[JesusFightClub]

Blackhawk, rather than nesting even more quotes, I'll reply here but I'm sure you remember what you wrote. I am really sad you accused me of sensationalising. Believe me, I did not. All I posted here about my relative's fate and her family life was the bare minimum. If I went into detail you'd have nightmares.

I think we are basically in agreement. But I respect deelaem and her POV. She is a radical feminist and her posts to FJ are blunt but bring an important perspective.

What I got from her post was that she felt really frustrated because nothing gets labelled important until men suffer. There's also a bit of the Sympathy Olympics in some of the responses to her. She is focusing on female sufferers of DV (still the most likely by a country mile to end up dead) and a lot of the replies she's getting are "You narrowminded cow, why don't you advocate for men too?"

I see this a fair bit in activism and we call it "whataboutery".

"Hi, I'm collecting to send medicines to Palestinian kids and...."

"Well what about Israeli kids who might be blown up! You don't care about THEM, do you! Personally I care about everyone so I won't be donating, goodbye."

[Lainey]

Can't we all just get along? :confusion-shrug:

[flojo]

What about a gay man getting hurt by a much larger partner? An elderly man being beaten by his young and healthy daughter who also takes his SSI check every month and spends it at the casino? A 19 yo male with Down Syndrome who gets a spanking with a belt every time he wets the bed? These are all domestic violence against men.

Not all men are well-muscled adults in prime health.

This.

And nobody here is saying that we should negate violence against women. We are saying all forms of domestic violence are unacceptable.

[Kelya]

Blackhawk, rather than nesting even more quotes, I'll reply here but I'm sure you remember what you wrote. I am really sad you accused me of sensationalising. Believe me, I did not. All I posted here about my relative's fate and her family life was the bare minimum. If I went into detail you'd have nightmares.

I think we are basically in agreement. But I respect deelaem and her POV. She is a radical feminist and her posts to FJ are blunt but bring an important perspective.

What I got from her post was that she felt really frustrated because nothing gets labelled important until men suffer. There's also a bit of the Sympathy Olympics in some of the responses to her. She is focusing on female sufferers of DV (still the most likely by a country mile to end up dead) and a lot of the replies she's getting are "You narrowminded cow, why don't you advocate for men too?"

I see this a fair bit in activism and we call it "whataboutery".

"Hi, I'm collecting to send medicines to Palestinian kids and...."

"Well what about Israeli kids who might be blown up! You don't care about THEM, do you! Personally I care about everyone so I won't be donating, goodbye."

And this happens to minorities (women are a minority in terms of power if not numbers) ALL THE TIME. Issues that disproportionately effect minorities don't get attention until they're given legitimacy through the majority emphasizing. I'm gonna link to a friend of a friend of a friend's blog right here: http://radfemles.wordpress.com/2010/05/ ... ersations/

It's a classic, "I have a black friend and now understand what racism feels like!" move.

In my opinion, sexism is inextricably linked to why women are abused significantly more. Since I don't believe you can be sexist against men, (just like you can't be racist against whites and straight people aren't discriminated against, reverse -isms do not exist), whenever it is moved to include abuse against men in non specific domestic violence discussions, I feel that we get further away from addressing the root cause of domestic abuse and its disproportionate effects on women.

I'm trying to think of another example- okay, at a summer job, a white woman threw water on a black woman's hair. The black woman explained that black hair requires different care and that water damage to her hair was not a simple matter of blow drying and that she'd appreciate other forms of horsing around instead of water when necessary. (We were a summer camp.) The explanation was simple and concise and the black woman indicated she was welcome to questions. Instead of accepting the discussion and moving on, or asking more questions about black hair care or the history of black hair, the white woman immediately began to complain about how she didn't know and felt so bad and didn't mean to be so racist and on and on and on. The discussion was brought back to the white woman's emotions and feelings on the discussion, and the woman of color was put in the position to feel guilty or somehow obligated to comfort the white woman. The black woman's offer to educate and her feelings on the incident were shut out of the discussion.

That's what I feel happens with domestic violence discussions that are moved to include male victims without clear explanations of the numerical and root differences- we're brought around to focusing on men's emotions and men's positions in what is a predominately female victim group, shutting out those who who make up the majority in numbers, but the minority in power.

I'm trying to be as clear here as possible while explaining my post third wave/new wave approach. Please let me know if I can explain it better or in a different way. I'm not saying that other approaches are wrong, just that this is my approach.

Also, here is a link on reverse isms and why they don't exist, because this concept is a big barrier to many people: http://finallyfeminism101.wordpress.com ... wards-men/