JinJer & Felicity 44: The Glossy Veneer is Slipping

[Rachel333]

3 hours ago, Foudeb said:

And no African Americans but Benin Americans, Kenyan Americans, Algerian Americans etc. It's singling out one group that's racist imho. 

Well, in this particular case it's because most black Americans whose families haven't recently immigrated don't know what part of Africa their ancestors come from. They don't have the privilege of knowing that part of their family history because their ancestors were kidnapped and had their identities stripped from them. I do think that there's a difference between this issue and the way that many people tend to think of Africa as just one country.

It's something a lot of racist people don't understand when they complain about black people celebrating a black identity but it being frowned upon for white people to celebrate being white. Racists ignore that it's perfectly acceptable in America for people to talk about being proud of their Irish/Italian/Swedish/other European identity, it's only when white people talk about being proud of being white, or about European heritage in general, that people start thinking they're racist. It is different for black Americans, and there a historical reason for that.

Now, talking about Asian-Americans is different, and it's true that Asian cultures get lumped together far more often than European cultures, which I do think is often simply just racism from white people not seeing a difference between Asian cultures, but you still do see terms like "Korean-American," "Indian-American," and "Chinese-American" far more than you see for individual African countries. 

Again, I've often seen racists complain that minorities are "allowed" to group together when realistically it just is going to be different for minorities. People of Chinese descent and people of Korean descent are going to have some common experiences when living in a country where they are the minority and are the targets of racism from a majority who doesn't see any difference between their cultures, so they are going to have much more of a reason to group together as Asian-Americans than people of Irish descent and Swedish descent would have to group together as European-Americans.

Of course, unfortunately in the end this does all trace back to racism in some way or another. 

[HereticHick]

5 hours ago, Foudeb said:

If there wasn't racism they would all be European Americans surely, or else there wouldn't be Native Americans but Cree Americans, Lakota Americans, Navajo Americans etc. And no African Americans but Benin Americans, Kenyan Americans, Algerian Americans etc. It's singling out one group that's racist imho. 

I tried, and failed, to find a polite way to say this.

I'm a Cherokee American. I'm also a Native American. I'm also an American. 

I don't care if you live in Alabama, Austria, or on a moon of Saturn--you do not have permission to tell me what to call myself. 

[Foudeb]

It was not my intend to define you or anyone else and I apologise if it came across that way. 

My point is that only European Americans get defined by culture and not by vague geographical origin. I struggle to find an explanation that doesn't include whiteness being perceived as the default that needs no explanation, going straight to the luxury of being defined by culture. While everyone else gets defined by a wide geographical default rather than their language, culture, history etc. which only comes in second. And perceiving whiteness as the default that needs no qualifying is racist. 

Imho. 

[VelociRapture]

6 hours ago, Carm_88 said:

Interrupting this very important conversation to point out that the mustard love is still strong, Felicity has a mustard headband bow.

Oh look. A photo of their (admittedly cute) child to distract from the fact that Jeremy was retweeting pro-Kavanaugh bullshit. 

(Disclaimer - I don’t actually think that’s why she posted the photo. I don’t think Jinger or Jeremy think they need to distract from their political beliefs.) 

[AliceInFundyland]

First thing I did was count that poor child’s fingers. And I scrolled through most of that discussion.

[apandaaries]

On 10/5/2018 at 9:24 AM, Carm_88 said:

No, no, no, no; can I say it a thousand times, No! Canada is in North America, but we tend to call our black people, black. I don't think I have heard African Canadian or anything like that.

Here's my contribution to the strange ways American terms get used abroad.  Many years ago (20! 20 years ago! I'm getting old), I was studying in Sweden at Uppsala University over the summer. It was a Swedish language program and we stayed in the dorms.  Some real students were there that summer too, and I wound up at a party one night. I found myself talking to a Swedish citizen originally from Ethiopia, who was Black...and he called himself "African-American." The man was multilingual, but that was the term he chose. I've always assumed it was due to the overwhelming American (USA, of course) presence involved in the English language, but it's stuck with me for years as the strangest descriptor. 

[SilverBeach]

14 hours ago, bekkah said:

I was just trying to point out that not all Africans are Christian and that there is more than one religion.

African slaves were primarily Muslim and they were prohibited from practicing the religion of their homeland. So of course not all African nations are Christian, although some of the oldest Christian churches are in Africa. Africa is a huge continent with much religious variety including religions introduced by the colonizers, such as the dutch reformed.

8 hours ago, Rachel333 said:

Well, in this particular case it's because most black Americans whose families haven't recently immigrated don't know what part of Africa their ancestors come from. They don't have the privilege of knowing that part of their family history because their ancestors were kidnapped and had their identities stripped from them.

Your entire post is fantastic, although I snipped it. Loss of family history is one of the most damaging aspects of hundreds of years of chattel slavery. Most of us don't even know our family history in the US since family members were bought and sold at the whim of the slaveowner.

[PennySycamore]

@apandaaries, that Ethiopian Swedish guy didn't happen  to be Marcus Samuelsson, did it?  He and his sister were adopted from Ethiopia by a Swedish couple.

[Jinder Roles]

@Foudeb You are right that whiteness is considered a default, especially in who has the privilege of being seen as individuals. And white dominant culture, it does seem like everyone but European descended people are painted with s broad brush. However, when you go outside of those white dominant circles, you will find rich and complex identities and culture that is often overlooked.

@SilverBeach @Rachel333 Yes! A lot of the roots were lost but a lot was retained (music, hairstyles, language). I also appreciate the cultures that were fused, retained and developed...and it wasn’t all by accident. I’ve recently learned of quite a few instances where culture was retained intentionally, and some of our ancestors were intuitive enough to adapt their cultural roots to their new environments and use them as tools.  

[SilverBeach]

3 minutes ago, Jinder Roles said:

Yes! A lot of the roots were lost but a lot was retained (music, hairstyles, language). I also appreciate the cultures that were fused, retained and developed...and it wasn’t all by accident. I’ve recently learned of quite a few instances where culture was retained intentionally, and some of our ancestors were intuitive enough to adapt their cultural roots to their new environments and use them as tools.  

Foods were one of the main cultural elements from the African homeland, with things such as okra. Cultural adaptation was significant, but to me, the loss of family history is just tragic.

[apandaaries]

18 minutes ago, PennySycamore said:

@apandaaries, that Ethiopian Swedish guy didn't happen  to be Marcus Samuelsson, did it?  He and his sister were adopted from Ethiopia by a Swedish couple.

I don’t think so. He was studying as a Swedish student and had come over with his nuclear family (iirc), who were living elsewhere in Sweden. AFAIK, he didn’t have any connection to the States. He seemed to just be using the term as he’d learned it in his English classes.

[Mama Mia]

8 hours ago, Foudeb said:

It was not my intend to define you or anyone else and I apologise if it came across that way. 

My point is that only European Americans get defined by culture and not by vague geographical origin. I struggle to find an explanation that doesn't include whiteness being perceived as the default that needs no explanation, going straight to the luxury of being defined by culture. While everyone else gets defined by a wide geographical default rather than their language, culture, history etc. which only comes in second. And perceiving whiteness as the default that needs no qualifying is racist. 

Imho. 

What? ...I’m very confused by what you’re trying to say. I don’t know many  who refer to people as “xxx- American” - but when it does come up I’m certainly just as likely to hear “Chinese -American” or “Korean - American” as “Irish-American” or “German-American” . I hardly ever hear the - hyphenated American tacked on though. Similarly I’d be just as likely to hear someone describe their race or ethnicity ina general term “ White” “ Latina” “Asian” “Black” - or describe their nationality ( or their family ancestors) - as in “ I’m Mexican” “I’m Colombian” “I’m  Vietnamese” “ “I’m French” - or-  “ I think I’m French and German on my Mom’s side, and Guatemalan on my Dad’s” ..... Or if they don’t know the genealogy before their family came to the US - “ I’m White” or “I’m Black ( or African American )  I really have never noticed a big descrepency by race/nationality on how specific the descriptors are. 

[just_ordinary]

16 hours ago, CarrotCake said:

I secretly love mustard, but I am scared to tell it here.

I love that mustard is now in fashion and I also bought myself a mustard headband already ?

I also got a new mustard sweater and now I have to refrain myself from buying even more since I am afraid I will look like a jar of mustard (and dark green) all winter.

I also love mustard. I am blonde (well right now I am living my best life as a red head) and have a more yellowish skin tone. Mustard is the only yellow shade I don’t look sick in. Beige for example is the worst- you cannot tell the difference from fabric to skin after I put it on. 

And it is a wonderful autumn colour but I wear it all year round.

17 hours ago, Carm_88 said:

Interrupting this very important conversation to point out that the mustard love is still strong, Felicity has a mustard headband bow.

This pic is super adorable. That cheeky smile melts my heart (even though she is clearly not as lovely is my own baby).

[CarrotCake]

1 minute ago, just_ordinary said:

I also love mustard. I am blonde (well right now I am living my best life as a red head) and have a more yellowish skin tone. Mustard is the only yellow shade I don’t look sick in. Beige for example is the worst- you cannot tell the difference from fabric to skin after I put it on. 

Haha completely the same here, also the reason why I love mustard. 

Same with white: pure white looks really good on me but any shade of cream sucks.

[cascarones]

Mustard is really in this fall for nail color trends, I'm currently rocking mustard accent nails with a burnt caramel shade (that at first glance I thought was called burnt camel. See new avatar for hilarious glamor shot photo the nail salon wanted to take!

[lumpentheologie]

1 hour ago, CarrotCake said:

Haha completely the same here, also the reason why I love mustard. 

Same with white: pure white looks really good on me but any shade of cream sucks.

I'm so envious, I have a rosy skin tone and although I adore mustard I had to give up my mustard cardigan because I just looked like a dead fish every time I wore it.  

[tamjamb]

5 hours ago, cascarones said:

Mustard is really in this fall for nail color trends, I'm currently rocking mustard accent nails with a burnt caramel shade (that at first glance I thought was called burnt camel. See new avatar for hilarious glamor shot photo the nail salon wanted to take!

Love, love, love these!  I am going for a manicure on Friday and I think I'm going to copy you!

[Scrabblemaster]

I have pumpkin-orange nailpolish. Perfect colour for autumn, I think I will paint my nails this evening. Or I could do laundry. Let's think about it... Nope, I will do my nails instead. 

[CarrotCake]

Since orange is our national color I would think about putting it on my nails at any other event as our national day or worldcup football.

[PlentyOfJesusFishInTheSea]

On 10/9/2018 at 11:51 PM, SilverBeach said:

African slaves were primarily Muslim 

I never heard that before so I looked it up. Wiki says more like 15-30% of slaves were Muslims but doesn't have a citation for that sentence (grr). PBS says 10-15%.

 

So probably a minority but that is still quite interesting! Thanks for teaching me something new.

 

https://nmaahc.si.edu/explore/stories/collection/african-muslims-early-america

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_in_the_United_States#Slaves

http://www.pbs.org/opb/historydetectives/feature/islam-in-america/

[Carm_88]

It was Chuck's birthday. He really is the hot Vuolo. Maybe it's because he keeps his mouth shut and isn't a massive fame whore. Huh...could be!

[SassyPants]

6 minutes ago, Carm_88 said:

It was Chuck's birthday. He really is the hot Vuolo. Maybe it's because he keeps his mouth shut and isn't a massive fame whore. Huh...could be!

I'm telling you, Ernie and Bert!

[SilverBeach]

1 hour ago, PlentyOfJesusFishInTheSea said:

I never heard that before so I looked it up. Wiki says more like 15-30% of slaves were Muslims but doesn't have a citation for that sentence (grr). PBS says 10-15%.

 

So probably a minority but that is still quite interesting! Thanks for teaching me something new.

 

https://nmaahc.si.edu/explore/stories/collection/african-muslims-early-america

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_in_the_United_States#Slaves

http://www.pbs.org/opb/historydetectives/feature/islam-in-america/

 As a black person whose education included absolutely nothing about my people's heritage, I am constantly learning. Those who I know that have visited nations in Africa have told me that the primary religions they encounter are Christianity and Islam. Thanks for the references I will read them all.

[Pecansforeveryone]

I think in modern day, Islam and Christianity are the predominant religions. However, in the 1700s and 1800s, I think indigenous beliefs were much more prevalent. I know among Native Americans the boarding schools of the 30s, 40s, and 50s did a lot of damage/skewing towards a practice of Christianity. I think the "mission" work in Africa was somewhat later than 1850 so a shift in there in beliefs.

[HerNameIsBuffy]

5 hours ago, SilverBeach said:

 As a black person whose education included absolutely nothing about my people's heritage, I am constantly learning. Those who I know that have visited nations in Africa have told me that the primary religions they encounter are Christianity and Islam. Thanks for the references I will read them all.

I'll try to find the link when I have time but there was a fascinating post on the AskHistorians sub on Reddit about Islam and slavery in the US from the beginning.

There is one (island?) isolated location where the majority of the enslaved practiced Islam and to this day it's still very isolated culturally and they practice a specific type of Islam with customs that have been in place in this area for hundreds of years.

Now I have to find the link...

https://reddit.app.link/ICyid0H9VQ

Quote

When Thomas Jefferson sought to learn about Islam, he interviewed enslaved people under his own control. As late as 1835, members of the Afro-Brazilian community led an Islamic slave revolt. If Islamic belief was able to persist for centuries after the beginning of Transatlantic colonialism, when and why did these practices disappear? What linguistic, cultural, or ideological traces of West and East African Islam managed to survived the long, brutal, and ongoing process of colonialism and cultural erasure?

In Afro-Diaspora communities such as Haiti, Cuba, and New Orleans, parts and pieces of polytheistic belief systems survive through popular religion. In these communities and others, is there any comparable presence of the more consistent, well-attested, and organized traditions of Islam?