JinJer & Felicity 44: The Glossy Veneer is Slipping

[SapphireSlytherin]

I know that Germany-safe feeling. I never felt threatened there, at all. I miss that.

[Nomorethanfour]

6 minutes ago, SapphireSlytherin said:

I know that Germany-safe feeling. I never felt threatened there, at all. I miss that.

Same here!

[patsymae]

On 10/3/2018 at 6:29 PM, tabitha2 said:

@patsymae How do you feel about a white South African wearing those items and celebrating Kwanzaa? Not ever person born in Africa is black after all. 

I have no idea what the social mores are in South Africa. Kwaanza is a holiday created by African Americans, and I've been to many public and private celebrations as a guest. But I cringe when the white people in my liberal church (UU) celebrate it because they think its showing inclusiveness or something.

On 10/5/2018 at 1:13 AM, allthegoodnamesrgone said:

I read an article on line a while back talking about how we describe nationalities in the US. We have African Americans, Asian Americans, Native Americans, Hispanic Americans. The author stated something to the affect of have you ever noticed that everyone is a hyphenated American but white people?  That kind of struck me, just another form of systemic racism, by pointing out that white folks are Americans and everyone else is Something else first American second. It seems so innocuous, but it is there. 

Also I wonder what Native people think of the term Indian, it seems very racist to me, random white girl, and I don't like to use it.  I like the Canadian version of Indigenous People personally.  Also what are people's thoughts on the Washington Redskins.  This one really makes my skin crawl, I see it as no different than if they were called the Mississippi N******s and as with everything the conservatives get all butt hurt and scream everyone is a bunch of snow flakes and we can't say anything anymore with out everyone getting their little feelings hurt. Which I find ironic, that they are crying about getting their feelings hurt when they can't call someone names.  White conservatives really really hate it when you tell them what to do, they become very belligerent and start screaming persecution and calling everyone around them cry babies (while throwing a temper-tantrum).  

Don't mind my rambling here, had some dental work today and took a couple pain pills and i'm feeling no pain.  ?

 

Where does that author live? Has she never heard of Italian Americans, Irish Americans, Polish Americans?

[ladyaudley]

14 hours ago, SapphireSlytherin said:

I know that Germany-safe feeling. I never felt threatened there, at all. I miss that.

I miss it too, though if you're even mildly brown and live in Eastern Germany right now you'd probably not feel that safe ? 

[bekkah]

On 10/4/2018 at 4:23 PM, SilverBeach said:

This is a pet peeve of mind. If anything, people from African nations are African-Amercan (which is a garbage term to me, it's like saying North American-American). The rest of us are just black people. We have some commonalities, and we have some differences, although my experience is that people from an African nation identify with their nation (Ghana, Nigeria, etc.), not the entire continent of Africa. My experience has also been that the people from African nations are mostly Christian and practice like the rest of us . Many Africans in my church. They tend to dress like the rest of us too.

True but my brother in law is Muslim.  Christianity has a slight majority over Islam but it’s only by a few percentage points in Africa.  Check Wikipedia below for info about religion  

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_Africa

Are you saying that my brother in law is wrong for describing himself as African??? Just like there are black Muslims here who are born in America. 

[MaJessatic]

I've been using the term 'African-Australian' rather than 'black' on FJ simply because in my little divot of WAust, a black person (or blackfella) is an Aboriginal person, and I'm trying to have my terminology be as clear as possible. Time difference means it could be a while before I'm back to clarify my meaning if I muff somehow. 

I'm really sorry if it's caused anyone distress, and if it has I'll try to think of a different way to word things so it doesn't happen. 

[SilverBeach]

14 hours ago, patsymae said:

Not ever person born in Africa is black after all. 

Hence another point supporting the ridiculousness of the term African-American meaning black. What is a white south African who becomes an American citizen? Or who has lived in America all their life life like me? Just white I guess. No reference to country of origin needed.

I can't speak to race naming conventions anywhere except for the USA.

[lumpentheologie]

20 hours ago, ladyaudley said:

I miss it too, though if you're even mildly brown and live in Eastern Germany right now you'd probably not feel that safe ? 

Absolutely. Nothing has made me so aware of my (American, white-passing) privilege as immigrating to a European country and having no one get upset about it.  Add in that most people here speak my language better than I speak theirs, and damn. 

[elliha]

20 hours ago, bekkah said:

True but my brother in law is Muslim.  Christianity has a slight majority over Islam but it’s only by a few percentage points in Africa.  Check Wikipedia below for info about religion  

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_Africa

Are you saying that my brother in law is wrong for describing himself as African??? Just like there are black Muslims here who are born in America. 

Somalia is almost 100% Muslim and most north African countries are mostly Muslim. Many other African countries have big Muslim groups. My friend from Ghana said that where he grew up some are Muslim but most are Christian and most official events are blessed by both a priest and an imam and most people would question if there wouldn't be one of both. He said people might not agree with the other person's religion but on an everyday level people got along fine. Where he used to live there was also a small number of animists who believed in tree gods and such and he said that some of them would use the ceremonies they performed to try to scare people who were Christian and Muslim but also on a day to day basis there really wasn't much of a problem with that either. He said that animists were much fewer now than when he was a child (he is 50+) and that most have converted to Christianity either when strong older relatives have died or because they have become personally convinced. He said that elders being a strong influence made some people not dare to convert officially despite going to church for years. He was very intrigued by the animists as a child especially since his parents forbid him from watching and taking part in their ceremonies but of course he could not keep from watching anyway.

[bekkah]

40 minutes ago, elliha said:

Somalia is almost 100% Muslim and most north African countries are mostly Muslim. Many other African countries have big Muslim groups. My friend from Ghana said that where he grew up some are Muslim but most are Christian and most official events are blessed by both a priest and an imam and most people would question if there wouldn't be one of both. He said people might not agree with the other person's religion but on an everyday level people got along fine. Where he used to live there was also a small number of animists who believed in tree gods and such and he said that some of them would use the ceremonies they performed to try to scare people who were Christian and Muslim but also on a day to day basis there really wasn't much of a problem with that either. He said that animists were much fewer now than when he was a child (he is 50+) and that most have converted to Christianity either when strong older relatives have died or because they have become personally convinced. He said that elders being a strong influence made some people not dare to convert officially despite going to church for years. He was very intrigued by the animists as a child especially since his parents forbid him from watching and taking part in their ceremonies but of course he could not keep from watching anyway.

And my brother in law did practice some traditional religious practices, its fusion. I was just trying to point out that not all Africans are Christian and that there is more than one religion. 

 

A lot of the Christian influence came from colonization and the effects that it has had on countries is pretty damaging. Something that I have learned about being in a multicultural family is that people will judge you and your family for how you decide to handle being multicultural. I was flat out told I was wrong for how I described my family. 

[elliha]

Just now, bekkah said:

And my brother in law did practice some traditional religious practices, its fusion. I was just trying to point out that not all Africans are Christian and that there is more than one religion. 

 

A lot of the Christian influence came from colonization and the effects that it has had on countries is pretty damaging. Something that I have learned about being in a multicultural family is that people will judge you and your family for how you decide to handle being multicultural. I was flat out told I was wrong for how I described my family. 

Yes, this seems to be the case sadly. Multicultural often means some kind of compromise and that can cause concern and if you do "pick" a culture people will dislike you keeping the child from the other culture. I think there needs to be some trust in your own judgement and do what feels right for that person, there is no given solution as I see it.

(It is true that there can be a fusion of religions as well and the friend I wrote about earlier said that some people were both Christian and practiced some animist beliefs voluntarily as well as because of family pressure as I mentioned. It is true that Christianity is mostly present due to colonialism but my own experience is that the Africans I have met from many different countries do not feel mixed feelings against Christianity but more towards societal changes created by colonialism. Not saying it doesn't exist of course.)

[bekkah]

11 minutes ago, elliha said:

Yes, this seems to be the case sadly. Multicultural often means some kind of compromise and that can cause concern and if you do "pick" a culture people will dislike you keeping the child from the other culture. I think there needs to be some trust in your own judgement and do what feels right for that person, there is no given solution as I see it.

(It is true that there can be a fusion of religions as well and the friend I wrote about earlier said that some people were both Christian and practiced some animist beliefs voluntarily as well as because of family pressure as I mentioned. It is true that Christianity is mostly present due to colonialism but my own experience is that the Africans I have met from many different countries do not feel mixed feelings against Christianity but more towards societal changes created by colonialism. Not saying it doesn't exist of course.)

I feel like if you are respectful about presenting your ideas about how to talk about race or culture, I am more than willing to listen to you. Gentle correctness goes a lot farther than being sent a million articles about how a term is not politically correct and then one of the last articles that is sent is about how the term being reclaimed by some. I think that is something that is missing a lot of times in talking about multiethnic families is that not everyone is going to describe their family the same way. Throw in religion and it goes off the deep end. Someone at my church told me that my nephew will grow up to be a very confused black kid because he has white mother and black father who identifies not as African American . She proceeded to tell me that her kid (s) will only go to an all black church and a black kids group after school while her husband is white. ?  I told this to my sister and she was like she is erasing her own potential kids' heritage just like dominant culture did to hers 300 years ago. 

I know that I am not going to solve these issues overnight.  We are becoming more and more of a divided country. That is what is sad to me. 

[NakedKnees]

2 hours ago, bekkah said:

I feel like if you are respectful about presenting your ideas about how to talk about race or culture, I am more than willing to listen to you. Gentle correctness goes a lot farther than being sent a million articles about how a term is not politically correct and then one of the last articles that is sent is about how the term being reclaimed by some. 

*Snip*

I know that I am not going to solve these issues overnight.  We are becoming more and more of a divided country. That is what is sad to me. 

First of all, I really appreciate you sharing your family experience here. It's a great example of when cultural appropriation issues actually are complex (sorry, FJ, but I really wouldn't describe most of the examples brought up in this thread as "complex").

Secondly, I do think that people have different learning styles when it comes to this sort of thing. I'd personally prefer articles and bigger one-on-one conversations. I don't hold it against others when they go the "gentle correction" route, but I anxiously think about it for days afterward. To each their own, and when it comes to the best way to correct loved ones, THAT'S complex.

Lately I've been sad by how divided the country is. I swing back and forth on that because I do believe that some views are getting more of a platform that's much deserved, and that's perhaps divisive, but not wrong. What I'm trying to say is I don't want to espouse a "don't rock the boat" type of worldview, but the level of division in the US (and other countries) is still painful.

[Carm_88]

Interrupting this very important conversation to point out that the mustard love is still strong, Felicity has a mustard headband bow.

[bekkah]

16 minutes ago, NakedKnees said:

First of all, I really appreciate you sharing your family experience here. It's a great example of when cultural appropriation issues actually are complex (sorry, FJ, but I really wouldn't describe most of the examples brought up in this thread as "complex").

Secondly, I do think that people have different learning styles when it comes to this sort of thing. I'd personally prefer articles and bigger one-on-one conversations. I don't hold it against others when they go the "gentle correction" route, but I anxiously think about it for days afterward. To each their own, and when it comes to the best way to correct loved ones, THAT'S complex.

Lately I've been sad by how divided the country is. I swing back and forth on that because I do believe that some views are getting more of a platform that's much deserved, and that's perhaps divisive, but not wrong. What I'm trying to say is I don't want to espouse a "don't rock the boat" type of worldview, but the level of division in the US (and other countries) is still painful.

I think what is so confusing for people is that I find non-white culture to be confusing. I am the first to admit. My brother in law has even told me he feels more comfortable around white people than other American born black people. 

The poverty he grew up with is radically different than poverty in America. His dad would go days without food to feed him, he had to walk two miles every night to find a light to study by and had malaria several times before coming here. Its just different than being American born black. His family highly emphasized education as a way out. Its interesting to hear the perspectives of American born black versus immigrant black versus refugee born black.

 

I think about my parents. They grew up not seeing a black person till way late in their childhood and were staunchly anti-LGBT (the only reason I remember is that my parents were in support of Ellen losing her tv show and now my mom loves Ellen). They have now changed their viewpoints to a more accepting position. Change takes generations to fully enact. All viewpoints need to be heard and recognized because growth takes time.  Cultural changes take time to happen and there will be mistakes that will happen which is where cultural appropriation takes place. 

I think what is so frustrating to people that it seems to never get to a good place and a resolution.  Oh, I also have had a talk with people about why the term gypsy is bad because we are part gypsy in my family. I don't look like it but I am really mindful about using certain phrases and that is still way more acceptable than other phrases. 

 

As you see, I can write paragraphs about this issue. I wanna say that we don't really talk about it in my family. My brother in law and my nephew are people first. 

[HereticHick]

Felicity aka Mittens  is already a fashion influencer. 

http://www.monmode.co/trend-alert-yellow-mustard-nyfw/

 

[Foudeb]

On 10/8/2018 at 12:06 PM, patsymae said:

 

Where does that author live? Has she never heard of Italian Americans, Irish Americans, Polish Americans?

If there wasn't racism they would all be European Americans surely, or else there wouldn't be Native Americans but Cree Americans, Lakota Americans, Navajo Americans etc. And no African Americans but Benin Americans, Kenyan Americans, Algerian Americans etc. It's singling out one group that's racist imho. 

[CarrotCake]

I secretly love mustard, but I am scared to tell it here.

I love that mustard is now in fashion and I also bought myself a mustard headband already ?

I also got a new mustard sweater and now I have to refrain myself from buying even more since I am afraid I will look like a jar of mustard (and dark green) all winter.

[Skeptic]

1 hour ago, Carm_88 said:

Interrupting this very important conversation to point out that the mustard love is still strong, Felicity has a mustard headband bow.

Is anyone else getting Rosie the Riveter vibes from this?

[Audrey2]

29 minutes ago, CarrotCake said:

I secretly love mustard, but I am scared to tell it here.

I love that mustard is now in fashion and I also bought myself a mustard headband already ?

I also got a new mustard sweater and now I have to refrain myself from buying even more since I am afraid I will look like a jar of mustard (and dark green) all winter.

I say if it's a color you love and you look good in, stock up! I'm sure glad over the last couple years I've been stocking up on orange as I know it's going to become harder to find. I'm already at frustration level with my favorite brown t-shirt, which needs replaced but I have not found one to replace it at my favorite store.

[tabitha2]

Right? That’s the very first thing I thought!  Since I am positive Jin has never heard of Rosie and would not appreciate the comparison if she actually knows about Rosie it sure is ironic . 

[VeryNikeSeamstress]

Felicity just keeps getting cuter!

[libgirl2]

On 10/6/2018 at 7:24 PM, Rachel333 said:

I noticed that Jeremy liked a pro-Kavanaugh article linked on twitter that compared Kavanaugh possibly not being confirmed to the Supreme Court to people being burned alive in Ghana. 

Did Jeremy forget the guy is an evil Catholic? 

On 10/7/2018 at 11:22 AM, BackseatMom said:

I know - I can't even go into my normal news sources because it's all about that self entitled asshole. I am 100% not surprised Jeremy is into him.

Of course, I assume all the Duggars are pretty excited about this latest opportunity to push their anti choice agenda all the way into our heathen uteri. 

Its like I said, these people are willing to make a deal with the devil to overturn choice. 

[patsymae]

1 hour ago, Foudeb said:

If there wasn't racism they would all be European Americans surely, or else there wouldn't be Native Americans but Cree Americans, Lakota Americans, Navajo Americans etc. And no African Americans but Benin Americans, Kenyan Americans, Algerian Americans etc. It's singling out one group that's racist imho. 

You're not from around here, are you?

15 hours ago, SilverBeach said:

Hence another point supporting the ridiculousness of the term African-American meaning black. What is a white south African who becomes an American citizen? Or who has lived in America all their life life like me? Just white I guess. No reference to country of origin needed.

I can't speak to race naming conventions anywhere except for the USA.

African American, which came into use in the 1980s, idiomatically isn't exactly a synonym for black (which is not a pejorative, hence Black Power, Black Panthers, Black Lives Matter) but refers to people in the US and its territories who are descended from slaves or from people of African origin who were in the US before emancipation. So while a recent arrival from Africa of any race who becomes a citizen is indeed African and American, you wouldn't use the idiom "African American" to describe them. It's one of those instances in which language isn't literal. (of course anybody can decide for themselves how they want to refer to themselves; this is about general usage.)

[Foudeb]

And how do you explain away lumping the many different Native or Asian nations into one when Europeans get their own country of origin?