JinJer & Felicity 44: The Glossy Veneer is Slipping

[Georgiana]

During last year’s Stanley Cup playoffs:

Mom: How many African-American hockey players are there in the NHL?

Me: *thinks* I’m not sure if there are any  off the top of my head, but I—

Mom: Well there’s at least one, he’s playing!

Me: He’s Black, yes, but PK Subban is from Canada, mom. 

Mom: Canada’s in America!

Me: That’s not what you meant, and you know it! 

(All the Black NHL players I can think of off the top of my head are from Canada) 

[Jinder Roles]

What’s even weirder than the African American instead of black thing, is (white) people describing someone and mentioning everything about them but their race. 

A real example from college: 

Person: You know Rachael? 

Me: Which one? 

Person: long hair, cool clothes, takes PoliSc

Me: the professor’s daughter?

Person: No. She lives on the 4th flour. 

Me: who transferred? 

Person: No, the short one. 

Me: the blonde one from Arizona?

Person: No, she’s not blonde. She has long braids. She’s from Philadelphia. 

Me: The black one?

Person: Yes! 

Me: why didn’t you just say that first. There are like 5 Rachaels in this dorm and only one is black. 

 

[allthegoodnamesrgone]

I read an article on line a while back talking about how we describe nationalities in the US. We have African Americans, Asian Americans, Native Americans, Hispanic Americans. The author stated something to the affect of have you ever noticed that everyone is a hyphenated American but white people?  That kind of struck me, just another form of systemic racism, by pointing out that white folks are Americans and everyone else is Something else first American second. It seems so innocuous, but it is there. 

Also I wonder what Native people think of the term Indian, it seems very racist to me, random white girl, and I don't like to use it.  I like the Canadian version of Indigenous People personally.  Also what are people's thoughts on the Washington Redskins.  This one really makes my skin crawl, I see it as no different than if they were called the Mississippi N******s and as with everything the conservatives get all butt hurt and scream everyone is a bunch of snow flakes and we can't say anything anymore with out everyone getting their little feelings hurt. Which I find ironic, that they are crying about getting their feelings hurt when they can't call someone names.  White conservatives really really hate it when you tell them what to do, they become very belligerent and start screaming persecution and calling everyone around them cry babies (while throwing a temper-tantrum).  

Don't mind my rambling here, had some dental work today and took a couple pain pills and i'm feeling no pain.  ?

 

[Carm_88]

12 hours ago, Georgiana said:

Mom: Canada’s in America!

No, no, no, no; can I say it a thousand times, No! Canada is in North America, but we tend to call our black people, black. I don't think I have heard African Canadian or anything like that. Although, I must admit that one of my very close friends is black and when we were in university, everything that went wrong with her we would say "It's because you're black." I said that one day in the middle of the UC and horrified everyone around me. They thought that I was a racist, she was laughing hysterically, I was blood red. I did it again in an elevator, so I really didn't learn to watch my mouth.

We would never call PK Subban an African American. Not sure what he calls himself.

ETA: Dustin Byfuglien and J.T Brown are American.

[PlentyOfJesusFishInTheSea]

11 hours ago, allthegoodnamesrgone said:

  I like the Canadian version of Indigenous People personally.  

 

Canada keeps changing, it used to be First Nations (like, three years ago)! Meanwhile a lot of indigienous people call themselves Indian. It's a weird world out there.

14 minutes ago, Carm_88 said:

Canada is in North America, but we tend to call our black people, black. I don't think I have heart African Canadian or anything like that.

True, I think we sometimes categorize people into Caribbean, Ethiopian, Somali or whatever (those are some larger groups in my neck of the woods). I don't think I've met someone black whose family has been here for a long time, for example who came as escaped slaves, but I assume they call themselves black.

[Carm_88]

11 minutes ago, PlentyOfJesusFishInTheSea said:

Canada keeps changing, it used to be First Nations (like, three years ago)! Meanwhile a lot of indigienous people call themselves Indian. It's a weird world out there.

I've heard First Nations and Original People. I think for the most part people are kind of going with Innu, Inuit, Mets; because there seems to be no word that they all like, which is fair enough. Everyone is different!

[Vivi_music]

40 minutes ago, Carm_88 said:

I've heard First Nations and Original People. I think for the most part people are kind of going with Innu, Inuit, Mets; because there seems to be no word that they all like, which is fair enough. Everyone is different!

During my time working in an historical site for Parks Canada, we had to use very governmental-approved vocabulary. The term "Indigenous peoples of Canada" was a term that comprised three big groups: First nations, Inuit and Métis.

(Which was important to not mix them up because our historical site was about the fur trade in the late 18th and early 19th century; a time when a lot of First nations played key roles and was also the genesis of the Métis nation.)

[JPatti]

Honestly, y'all, at different points in my life I have been hand-slapped for saying "Black," then hand-slapped for saying "African American." 

That's why this white lady always avoids using it as a descriptor....I am trying my best not to upset anyone! I just don't want others to feel uncomfortable, but sometimes in casual exchanges it's unrealistic to know what someone prefers, and seems even weirder to bring it up.

 

[PlentyOfJesusFishInTheSea]

13 minutes ago, Vivi_music said:

During my time working in an historical site for Parks Canada, we had to use very governmental-approved vocabulary. The term "Indigenous peoples of Canada" was a term that comprised three big groups: First nations, Inuit and Métis.

(Which was important to not mix them up because our historical site was about the fur trade in the late 18th and early 19th century; a time when a lot of First nations played key roles and was also the genesis of the Métis nation.)

I didn't know First Nations didn't include Metis or Inuit so I see why that's not a good term for everyone. Indigenous it is! For anyone else that cares: https://www.ictinc.ca/blog/indigenous-peoples-terminology-guidelines-for-usage

[SilverBeach]

1 hour ago, JPatti said:

Honestly, y'all, at different points in my life I have been hand-slapped for saying "Black," then hand-slapped for saying "African American." 

I've never chastised anyone for referring to me as black. Now negro, or nigra...you might have a problem. And I don't hand-slap folks that use African-American, I figure they are following social convention without thinking. Terms for us black folks have changed, at one time negro was the appropiate word (I honestly prefer that to AA, it just means black in Spanish). That's why we should just use black and be done with it.

1 hour ago, JPatti said:

That's why this white lady always avoids using it as a descriptor....I am trying my best not to upset anyone! I just don't want others to feel uncomfortable, but sometimes in casual exchanges it's unrealistic to know what someone prefers, and seems even weirder to bring it up.

Its similar to addressing LGBQT folks, it's best to just ask what term they prefer if you are unsure. "Do you prefer black or AA"? No biggie.

[EyesOpen]

Omg I love FJ. Literally just had an awkward situation where I was trying to describe which ‘Brian’ I was referring to. I said ‘the black Brian’ and the white person i was talking to (I’m also white) her eyes got so big and she blushed. Then I thought I screwed up , but I’m sorry there’s two Brian’s at work. One is black. I know him. I’ve talked work, politics, kids and race with him... fairly sure he knows he’s black. I hope that’s an ok thing to do!

[SilverBeach]

2 minutes ago, EyesOpen said:

Omg I love FJ. Literally just had an awkward situation where I was trying to describe which ‘Brian’ I was referring to. I said ‘the black Brian’ and the white person i was talking to (I’m also white) her eyes got so big and she blushed. Then I thought I screwed up , but I’m sorry there’s two Brian’s at work. One is black. I know him. I’ve talked work, politics, kids and race with him... fairly sure he knows he’s black. I hope that’s an ok thing to do!

Yeah, white people may get more upset than we do about us being called black. It's OK, really it is.

[sleepy_doggos]

My hubby and I must be horrible tribal members because we are both totally fine with mascots and names. Just about everyone I grew up with is also tribal to some degree (we are from Oklahoma...) and I seriously haven't heard complaints from anyone. In fact, it is usually the opposite.  Maybe those that are bothered don't feel as though they can speak up? I know that is just a small sample and clearly there are those that are really upset, but I do think people would be surprised by how many of us don't care. There are just sooooo many other problems within the native communities right now that seem so much more immediate I guess it makes mascots seem kind of unimportant. 

Hi fellow Oklahoman [emoji137]

[Carm_88]

1 hour ago, PlentyOfJesusFishInTheSea said:

I didn't know First Nations didn't include Metis or Inuit so I see why that's not a good term for everyone. Indigenous it is! For anyone else that cares: https://www.ictinc.ca/blog/indigenous-peoples-terminology-guidelines-for-usage

I knew it didn't include Metis, because they're mixed race. Often between Indigenous women and French Fur Traders.

[LilMissMetaphor]

This thread drift is making me want to know when season 3 of Frontier is gonna be on Netflix!

Quote

The series follows Declan Harp (Jason Momoa), a part-Irish, part-Cree outlaw who is campaigning to breach the Hudson's Bay Company's monopoly on the fur trade in Canada.

 

[Mama Mia]

3 hours ago, LilMissMetaphor said:

This thread drift is making me want to know when season 3 of Frontier is gonna be on Netflix!

 

Thank you reminding me of this very, very appealing distraction 

[feministxtian]

The thing that kills me about identifying myself as Latina is that "Hispanic", "Latinx" whatever have you covers a whole bunch of folks with a whole bunch of shades of color. The Dominican Republic, some Cubans and PR folks tend to be mixed black/white, Latin America (anything south of the US)...there's indigenous folks, white folks, black folks, mixed folks, Then in Spain you have anything from blonde/blue to "Mediterranean" looking (olive skin, dark hair). 

I look some variety of white/indigenous (who the fuck knows, the Conquistadores fucked anything), speak English with a southern accent and people about lose their marbles when I describe myself as Latina. Then I drop the bombshell...my father was German, but looked more Latino than my mother. As he liked to put it, his people were from "southern Germany y'all" (you had to know my father he was a particularly twisted individual and passed it to his daughter and grandchildren)

[ItsMeY'all]

I don't care what you call me. You'd use my hair color or glasses, why not say "she is Indian or something..." I mean, yes I'm card carrying tribal, but overall I'm just a nice global mutt, child of the world, and identify with numerous histories and cultures so good luck pinning me down to one group. Total side note---My hubby's grandma always said her grandma was "Indian" and we assumed she meant Native American. We knew all of hubby's other tribal lines and decided to investigate this one. We kept hitting walls until looking at a few other clues and realized she meant "Asia Indian." We jokingly say #Oklahomaproblems.  

It is interesting to see the different terminology used in Canada or even just different populations. Growing up I guess the only general terms I heard were Indian or Native American but generally people just identified with their tribe. "I'm Delaware," "I'm Cherokee," or "I'm Osage," were way more common. For legal terms it seems like everything was called "tribal." You have tribal councils, tribal healthcare, tribal medicine, tribal adoption, tribal license plates, and so on. 

Most of my black friends growing up and still today are the children of immigrants or immigrants themselves and either identify as black or with their parent't home nation. They called me the talkitive girl in the back with the long brown hair, the really tan kind of Indian looking girl, and I'd say something like the quiet black girl with glasses that sits in the front row. Never thought anything about it until I was older. One of my friends is black, forth generation born in France, living in the US, married to a guy born in Canada to Irish citizen parents, and gave birth to both her children in Venezuela. You will get one hell of a lecture on "the global society of today" if you call her kids African American! We live in such a small world now days. 

[justodd]

23 hours ago, SilverBeach said:

I've never chastised anyone for referring to me as black. Now negro, or nigra...you might have a problem. And I don't hand-slap folks that use African-American, I figure they are following social convention without thinking. Terms for us black folks have changed, at one time negro was the appropiate word (I honestly prefer that to AA, it just means black in Spanish). That's why we should just use black and be done with it.

Its similar to addressing LGBQT folks, it's best to just ask what term they prefer if you are unsure. "Do you prefer black or AA"? No biggie.

Yep. I had a conversation with a friend of mine shortly after they came out, and we had a pretty funny dustup over our preferred terms. They were adamant about queer being so wrong and awful and ugh, but it’s my preferred word, and it took some discussion to get our respective views across. Fortunately, we’re the sort of friends who can be horribly offensive without actually offending each other (if that makes sense), and it ended up being one of my favorite moments ever with them. 

I used to have a lot of discomfort about calling peope black, but then a friend of mine (raised in New York, whose family is from Ghana) pointed out that you’re way more likely to hear someone self describe as black when talking about things like identity, pride, and strength. I’m sure the words aren’t completely accurate (this was over a decade and a half ago, now), but that was the general gist of it, and it really made an impact on me.  If someone uses a word when describing their best self, why should I deny it?

[SilverBeach]

3 minutes ago, justodd said:

I used to have a lot of discomfort about calling peope black

That's because it was considered an insult, even some blacks used it pejoratively. Not so much anymore.

[justodd]

1 minute ago, SilverBeach said:

That's because it was considered an insult, even some blacks used it pejoratively. Not so much anymore.

Yeah. I didn’t want to call anyone something that they might find hurtful, so I just tried to avoid it. It wasn’t until that conversation with my friend that I started to understand it a little better. If someone reacts poorly to it now, I apologize and make a mental note that they’re not okay with it for reasons that matter to them, and I need to be sensitive to that in the future. 

Identity and culture issues can be a minefield, and though I don’t think it’s good to tiptoe around everything, I do think it’s smart and kind to try and be aware of ones words and actions. My frustration with people sporting fake moustaches and sombreros on cinco de mayo, or painting their faces like sugar skulls for Halloween is very real, and it bothers me that more people can’t just stop for a second and hear what I’m saying when I try to point out why it’s maybe not a thing you should do. I sometimes worry that my feelings on these issues aren’t taken as seriously because I “look white,” (the same way I’m always told I “look straight” when I’m in queer spaces), so why should I care? It’s frustrating, and it’s never ending (or so it seems), and every time I hear/read someone basically blowing raspberries and waving their hand to dismiss attempts to explain why appropriation sucks...it makes me want to scream, it really does. (Sorry for that side rant, @SilverBeach - it’s not directed at you!)

[Rachel333]

I noticed that Jeremy liked a pro-Kavanaugh article linked on twitter that compared Kavanaugh possibly not being confirmed to the Supreme Court to people being burned alive in Ghana. 

[Carm_88]

15 hours ago, Rachel333 said:

I noticed that Jeremy liked a pro-Kavanaugh article linked on twitter that compared Kavanaugh possibly not being confirmed to the Supreme Court to people being burned alive in Ghana. 

Holy fuck. Because a white man crying and pouting because he didn't get the job that he thinks he deserves, is the same thing as people losing their lives in a horrific way. What the absolute fuck Jeremy? You stupid piece of shit.

And Kavanaugh was confirmed anyway. Breaks my damned heart.

[BackseatMom]

I know - I can't even go into my normal news sources because it's all about that self entitled asshole. I am 100% not surprised Jeremy is into him.

Of course, I assume all the Duggars are pretty excited about this latest opportunity to push their anti choice agenda all the way into our heathen uteri. 

[lumpentheologie]

4 hours ago, Carm_88 said:

And Kavanaugh was confirmed anyway. Breaks my damned heart.

Ugh, I've been avoiding the news lately and hadn't heard.  I just moved to Germany and feel so much safer here, especially with 60% of Republicans saying they would support him even if he did try to rape someone. As a survivor, that made me want to not even go outside. 

Fuck Jeremy and all his kind.