JinJer & Felicity 44: The Glossy Veneer is Slipping

[adidas]

21 hours ago, HerNameIsBuffy said:

I don't pretend to know what's the styles are in Australia but this entire conversation is baffling me.  

Google women's turbans 1970s, 1940s, 1920s...to start and you'll see similar worn as fashion on all ethnicity including white.  A young Queen Elizabeth,  Elizabeth Taylor, to name a couple famous women and lots in the vintage fashion.

Ignoring that this is a style that's been worn by many, many ethnic groups over long periods of time makes no sense to me....like many things it's just making the rounds being back in style again for a while.

Another white Australian here - I didn’t blink an eyelid at Felicity’s head wrap because I see them being worn by white babies all the time. I have only seen one adult wear one IRL - a (white) friend who is undergoing chemo for breast cancer.

[farmerannie]

I will say I wear head wraps and turbans a lot and I'm very white, but I have the craziest curly hair that you've ever seen. It's a big hot mess lol. My middle daughter went to Ghana Africa for college and the women there loved dressing her in traditional African clothes and my daughter came back with many garments that she cherishes and wears proudly even when she gets grief for them because they were a gift to her from women she came to love in the months she was there. 

[MaJessatic]

3 hours ago, adidas said:

Another white Australian here - I didn’t blink an eyelid at Felicity’s head wrap because I see them being worn by white babies all the time. I have only seen one adult wear one IRL - a (white) friend who is undergoing chemo for breast cancer.

Oh man, really? I've honestly never seen one on a white kid, here. It's bows and bare heads, here, although I'm definitely going to keep an eye out now. What state are you in? I'm in WA. 
I hope your friend recovers- I'll keep her in my thoughts.  

[Iamtheway]

22 minutes ago, MaJessatic said:

Oh man, really? I've honestly never seen one on a white kid, here. It's bows and bare heads, here, although I'm definitely going to keep an eye out now. What state are you in? I'm in WA. 
I hope your friend recovers- I'll keep her in my thoughts.  

I’m pretty sure I’ve seen a photo of my niece in Perth with one that looks a lot like Felicity’s. I’ve never seen one in Sweden though. But they probably exist here too.

[adidas]

2 hours ago, MaJessatic said:

Oh man, really? I've honestly never seen one on a white kid, here. It's bows and bare heads, here, although I'm definitely going to keep an eye out now. What state are you in? I'm in WA. 
I hope your friend recovers- I'll keep her in my thoughts.  

Aw thanks. It’s a long hard road (and she is so young) but her doctors are optimistic. 

I’m in NSW  

oh and I just remembered that Jack Osbourne announced his daughter’s birth and she was wearing one of the wraps too:

 

 

[jozina]

I haven't seen baby girls in them in northern NSW/SE Queensland.  Lots of bows and headbands made of sweatshirt material with knots in them but no turbans. It's a style worn by so many different groups over time that it wouldn't make me think cultural appropriation either.

[finnlassie]

I've personally observed here in Finland that either (white) middle class & upper middle class families put those headbands on their babies and toddlers, as well as families from Russia.

 

What's up with us white people. Seriously.

[HurricaneBells]

Not everyone "appropriates" with mean intent and maybe some of the countries or whatnot, would be happy about sharing their style, tradition, culture etc. Why does it always have to be a negative? Using these things to mock or make fun, no way but maybe some of us just.like.turbans.

[SamiKatz]

I am white, with fine curly hair and my hair takes a really long time to dry fully (especially if I have product in it).  I can imagine if your hair is curlier and denser, it probably takes forever to dry so I can see wearing something over it while waiting for that magic moment.  I wouldn't dog someone for wearing bonnet to work to protect their hair, curly hair can be problematic to care for.

[melon]

Look,I apologize for my previous post.It was ignorant,I really inserted my foot in my mouth,then could not figure out how to edit,I'm ignorant.

Silver Beach,you are correct.I should not have said it.I'm white and have straight hair.To me,naturally curly hair is beautiful,but I don't know anything of the care it requires.

Also,I think once a baby gets past the newborn stage,regardless of the child.s race or gender,I think they're beautiful.

[MaJessatic]

5 hours ago, adidas said:

Aw thanks. It’s a long hard road (and she is so young) but her doctors are optimistic. 

I’m in NSW  

oh and I just remembered that Jack Osbourne announced his daughter’s birth and she was wearing one of the wraps too:

 

OMG this is nuts. Obviously I'm going to have to go to posher parts of Perth to find them, my patch is clearly far too bogan or something!

[bekkah]

First thought when I saw the turban, it was a gift from somebody. I have come to the point of wearing things if they are gifts because I feel that it is rude otherwise. 

 

Headcovering is extremely cultural. My sister dressed in traditional African clothing for my nephew's naming ceremony and she is extremely white.  My nephew is bicultural, I have gotten in trouble for how I have talked about my family structure.  I have experienced being called out because I did not using correct terminology. 

 

My brother in law is a first generation immigrant from Africa, he does not consider himself to be African American. The way he speaks, dresses and practices religion is completely different from African Americans. So, it is obvious how we talk about our family is different than a bicultural relationship between white and African Americans. Culture is such a tricky thing to navigate and than throw on top skin color becomes even tricker. 

[patsymae]

I can't believe I'm defending Jinjer, but really? She isn't pretending the kid is anything other than her kid with a wrap on her head.
To me, cultural appropriation is white people dressing up in dashikis and celebrating kwanza, or holding a sweat lodge, or Christians holding a seder on Holy Thursday--that kind of thing. Adopting a practice instead of understanding you should be a guest. But adopting a fashion or piece of clothing that originated elsewhere is just, well, liking those clothes. I wear a vintage short kimono jacket from Japan all the time, and I don't see that as cultural appropriation, just that I like something beautiful. An Indian friend brought me back a sari from Indian, a Pakistani woman I interviewed gifted me with a shalwar kameez, and I've seen many, many non-Celtic women wear kilts.
I just don't see a problem here.

[tabitha2]

@patsymae How do you feel about a white South African wearing those items and celebrating Kwanzaa? Not ever person born in Africa is black after all. 

[cascarones]

@Georgiana Thank you for explaining some of the differences I experienced in an understandable fashion!

I think with the Vuolos from what we've seen and I've personally observed on their approach to the culture of South Texas has been appreciative. I think I rolled my eyes at one or two things on their honeymoon, but it was more Jeremy just being a total ham and Jinger cringing, but trying to smile.

I could be naive, but I think most people are given the benefit of the doubt and gently educated when they misstep. At least that's been my experience, especially with terminology.

[fluffernutter]

We live in an area that is so conservative and largely oblivious to cultural issues. Our school's mascot is a Native American. It's everywhere- in the football stands, all the fans wear items associated with Native Americans, the kids all wear shirts saying "Indians Bleed Green (school color)" etc. So last year, my daughter wrote about changing the mascot for her argumentative essay. She got insane backlash. She was teased, ridiculed, and told she had no right to be in marching band since she lacked school spirit, etc... . Other kids wrote their essays on how it's respectful of the district to "honor" Native Americans by choosing that mascot. Luckily, her teacher was super supportive and she got a good grade, and had a really positive discussion with the teacher and another administrator. Nothing's come of it yet, but I was proud of her for taking it on.

[Rachel333]

11 hours ago, HurricaneBells said:

Not everyone "appropriates" with mean intent and maybe some of the countries or whatnot, would be happy about sharing their style, tradition, culture etc. Why does it always have to be a negative? Using these things to mock or make fun, no way but maybe some of us just.like.turbans.

Most people don't appropriate with mean intent. "Appropriation" implies taking something because you like it; using things to mock them is a different issue. It doesn't particularly matter that you "just like" something if you're taking something that isn't yours to take.

3 hours ago, patsymae said:

I can't believe I'm defending Jinjer, but really? She isn't pretending the kid is anything other than her kid with a wrap on her head.
To me, cultural appropriation is white people dressing up in dashikis and celebrating kwanza, or holding a sweat lodge, or Christians holding a seder on Holy Thursday--that kind of thing. Adopting a practice instead of understanding you should be a guest. But adopting a fashion or piece of clothing that originated elsewhere is just, well, liking those clothes. I wear a vintage short kimono jacket from Japan all the time, and I don't see that as cultural appropriation, just that I like something beautiful. An Indian friend brought me back a sari from Indian, a Pakistani woman I interviewed gifted me with a shalwar kameez, and I've seen many, many non-Celtic women wear kilts.
I just don't see a problem here.

It's not just practices. Clothing can absolutely be cultural appropriation too. It doesn't matter that you "just like" those clothes.

 

Here is what wikipedia says about appropriation.

Quote

According to critics of the practice, cultural appropriation differs from acculturation, assimilation, or cultural exchange in that this appropriation is a form of colonialism: cultural elements are copied from a minority culture by members of a dominant culture, and these elements are used outside of their original cultural context—sometimes even against the expressly stated wishes of members of the originating culture.

Often, the original meaning of these cultural elements is lost or distorted, and such displays are often viewed as disrespectful, or even as a form of desecration, by members of the originating culture. Cultural elements which may have deep meaning to the original culture may be reduced to "exotic" fashion or toys by those from the dominant culture. Kjerstin Johnson has written that, when this is done, the imitator, "who does not experience that oppression is able to 'play', temporarily, an 'exotic' other, without experiencing any of the daily discriminations faced by other cultures." The African-American academic, musician and journalist Greg Tate argues that appropriation and the "fetishizing" of cultures, in fact, alienates those whose culture is being appropriated.

 

I'm not at all saying this particular example of Felicity's hat is appropriation, and I feel like I generally have a pretty moderate view of what is actually cultural appropriation (I feel like I've been on the other side of this issue when it has come up on FJ before, so I'm pretty surprised at how far the opinions here seem to have shifted in the other direction), but just liking something from a culture that isn't yours doesn't in itself give you the right to use it! 

[Tatar-tot]

Turban Head Babies is the latest trendy baby thing.  Personally I think they are cute.  They help keep the baby warm and snuggly.  The babies head won’t get sunburned either.  

Here are a few links if you do not believe me:

https://m.shop.nordstrom.com/s/baby-bling-twist-headband-baby-girls/3924371

https://www.topknots.co/

https://www.babysprouts.com/blogs/news/top-knots

I will take a top knot any day over the hideous flower headband rage.

 

 

[SapphireSlytherin]

I saw the new baby video from the Wallers (is that their name? David & Priscilla?), and that newborn had a giant headband too.

[HurricaneBells]

1 hour ago, Rachel333 said:

Most people don't appropriate with mean intent. "Appropriation" implies taking something because you like it; using things to mock them is a different issue. It doesn't particularly matter that you "just like" something if you're taking something that isn't yours to take.

It's not just practices. Clothing can absolutely be cultural appropriation too. It doesn't matter that you "just like" those clothes.

Clothes, practices whatever. I do not care if I did not use the wording correctly, MY OPINION stands.

[Rachel333]

5 minutes ago, HurricaneBells said:

Clothes, practices whatever. I do not care if I did not use the wording correctly, MY OPINION stands.

It's not about wording, and you're free to have any opinion you want, but I just disagree that you're entitled to use things specific to another culture simply because you like them.

Again, that's not saying at all that you can't ever wear things from another culture, just that "I like it so I can use it" isn't in itself a good reason.

[zee_four]

2 hours ago, fluffernutter said:

We live in an area that is so conservative and largely oblivious to cultural issues. Our school's mascot is a Native American. It's everywhere- in the football stands, all the fans wear items associated with Native Americans, the kids all wear shirts saying "Indians Bleed Green (school color)" etc. So last year, my daughter wrote about changing the mascot for her argumentative essay. She got insane backlash. She was teased, ridiculed, and told she had no right to be in marching band since she lacked school spirit, etc... . Other kids wrote their essays on how it's respectful of the district to "honor" Native Americans by choosing that mascot. Luckily, her teacher was super supportive and she got a good grade, and had a really positive discussion with the teacher and another administrator. Nothing's come of it yet, but I was proud of her for taking it on.

Wow... I know this is ccommon  but still sad. You should be proud of your daughter.

A high school in the Denver area, the Arapahoe High School Warriors in Littleton,  kept their mascot but redesigned it after forging a relationship with area Arapahoe tribes and their elders. They kept their school's "tradition" but have become very respectful in doing so. Maybe you could pass that on to your daughter if its something she's still passionate about for ideas?

[justoneoftwo]

9 minutes ago, Rachel333 said:

It's not about wording, and you're free to have any opinion you want, but I just disagree that you're entitled to use things specific to another culture simply because you like them.

Again, that's not saying at all that you can't ever wear things from another culture, just that "I like it so I can use it" isn't in itself a good reason.

So what is a good reason? A good friend of mine from college brought me a sari when she went to visit her family in India because I love them and it was beautiful. Is that a good reason because someone from the culture gave me permission? It hardly seems so as if I ever wear it people ( in my personal experience only white people) get angry at me for wearing it. So what is a good enough reason? Who gets to decide? And why would one person from a culture get to decide for that culture? Is it exploded if I buy a Moroccan dress from a Moroccan store? Were they ever really going to not sell it to me? They may have had a choice but not really in a capitalist system. I think it becomes a really complicated issue and no one has one answer to and as it's a social issue the problems become pretty extreme if you're going to anger someone for wearing a piece of clothing that was a gift or was purchased. They really can't be any cultural exchange if it can only go one way and that is why I find the whole idea concerning. If it was fully defined and understood I would be on board. There are certainly things that are obviously appropriation and are unacceptable. For me those are items that have a specific purpose for a culture where is the simple clothing does not. I'm happy to be convinced otherwise I just don't understand where the line is if it's not the one I described. I also understand that using it in a non authentic way may be problematic and that buying it at the Gap is different than buying it from a person of the culture. But I'll also say that if Felicity is wearing something we don't know if they got it from a person of the culture so how do we judge? I really hope this is not insulting it's an issue I struggle with and I'm trying to understand

[SapphireSlytherin]

18 minutes ago, Rachel333 said:

I just disagree that you're entitled to use things specific to another culture simply because you like them.

Serious question after this statement:

Does this mean I shouldn't eat Chinese, Japanese, Vietnamese, Mexican, Italian, or Greek food?

Does this mean I shouldn't have a Japanese-style screen, or a Chinese lantern, or a Mexican salsa bowl? (I have none of the above - just using those as examples.)

Where is the line drawn, and who makes that decision?

P.S. I've found that many times, people other than those whose cultures are being (presumably) appropriated are the ones who are outraged/irritated about these things. Outrage on behalf of a group who may not see the outrage? Is there a term for that? Cultural appropriation confliction? 

[zee_four]

On 10/1/2018 at 9:43 PM, Rachel333 said:

Maybe some people do have issues with privately appropriating food, I don't know, but the point with clothing is that it might have a meaning that you don't understand and you shouldn't just assume it's yours to take. Even if it doesn't, publicly wearing clothes from a culture that isn't yours is different from privately enjoying food. 

If you buy a sari from an Indian person who wants to sell it to you then that's not appropriation, but the point is that you shouldn't assume that because you think something is pretty you can make it yours. It might not be a problem in some cases, but in other cases it really might bother people from that culture, and the attitude that you should be able to take anything you enjoy is the reason cultural appropriation is a problem. That's how you get problems like white people seeing a warbonnet, which has a specific meaning and isn't for just anyone to wear, deciding they like it, and turning something sacred into this:

  Hide contents

 

Indigenous here, and I'd say cultural appropriation is a problem when very sacred religious/spiritual items and practices are taken and used in an ignorant and inappropriate fashion.

 

 

Like the warbonnets of Plains tribes are sacred items for Male elders. The hula for my people kanakas (Native Hawai'ians) is a very sacred spiritual practice. Being cheap and sexy replicating these things are  a problem.

 

The sexy "Indian maiden" or slutty "hula" girl are even more problematic because of the horrific problem with sexual assault for indigenous women, most often perpetrated by white men and not prosecuted or investigated or really anything done about it at all.

There's nothing wrong with wearing or owning items from a cultural that aren't super sacred and miscued. Buy Navajo beadwork headbands or Hawai'ian gourd instruments just try to buy from actual NatIves not white owned corporations massproducing Native work. Like how the Polynesian Cultural Center is for profit and owned by the LDS Church you know the original missionaries who took over our island and people for their white business interests and banned all of our culture and language as demonic and barbaric and took our Keiki (kids) so they didn't learn from their ohana and learned to be like white Mormons instead eexcept seen as descendants of sinners from the past for being marked with dark skin.

Other than that eat our food, listen to music, just understand and respect different minority cultures when you do and that's no problem.

 

Hope that makes sense.