JinJer & Felicity 44: The Glossy Veneer is Slipping

[NakedKnees]

The cultural appropriation thing isn't very complicated. Both of these things have been mentioned, but basically:

1) be conscious of who is getting your money when purchasing items that traditionally belong to other cultures

2) be sensitive to when someone with privilege might be celebrated for wearing/cooking/using the exact same thing that other people are oppressed and insulted for using, particularly when the item at hand originated with that oppressed group.

There is so much space for cultural exchange while being aware of these things. I'd argue that real cultural exchange is actually facilitated by this type of sensitivity.

White women have used turbans over time, but I think the relationship African American women have with turbans has a certain amount of historical weight that white women should try to be aware of, even if that wasn't generally an expectation in the 1940s. Google hair and "Tignon laws" to learn more about this.

I still stand by my belief that it's a bit intense to publically call a person racist over this, but that doesn't mean that there isn't an issue that's worthy of discussion.

Also, personally, I'm Latina and white with pretty thick coarse curls and take a lot of beauty tips aimed at African American women, including sleeping with silk scarves sometimes. I don't leave the house with them though- it doesn't feel worth it to potentially hurt anyone over it. Just my opinion though.

 

[PennySycamore]

@NakedKnees,  I'm (or I was) on Loza Tam's email list and she has many beautiful wraps for those of us who have natural/curly hair.  While they are beautiful, I'd never be comfortable wearing one.  I think that would be inappropriate.  I might wear a headband though although not a kinte one.  Btw, some of the models on the Loza Tam website are not black or brown.

Here's an article I found on the Loza Tam website about head wraps and cultural appropriation:

Cultural appropriation and Head Wraps

 

[libgirl2]

13 hours ago, kmachete14 said:

I'm annoyed Jinger and Jeremy are still walking around polluting Chicago, but also jealous I'm not downtown to try and sneak a peek at them! Jeremy annoys me so much for thinking he can have his cake (fundamental Christianity and its evils) and eat it too (live an otherwise mainstream millennial life). Ugh so despicable. I wonder if the friend he did the wedding for even knows the extremity of his beliefs or just thought it would be fun to have an old buddy officiate. 

My husband works downtown. he doesn't care about the Duggars and wouldn't even know them on the street. Damn! Why can't I be down there. 

[seraaa]

20 hours ago, allthegoodnamesrgone said:

If you really think about it, it has only been about 50ish years since western women stopped wearing head coverings of some sort when out in public. For most of history women have almost always worn something on their head, either veils, head scarves, hats etc. They varied in form, fashion and practicality , even as late as the 1960 women would wear some type of hat when out in public as it was considered part of your womanly duty to be well kempt at all times, and the hat was the topper on the "present" so to speak.  It was the sexual revolution in the late 60's early 70's that they started saying fuck this and let their hair down to fly free.

Yes! My granny's generation - and everyone's granny who came of age in the 50s instead of the 60s still do, sometimes. 

 

Re cultural appropriation vs appreciation - ask yourself, "is this situation exploitative or offensive in any way, either through the use the thing is put to, or the means of procurement? " If the answer is 'no' on both counts, then I guess you're probably good

[Carm_88]

I have mixed feelings on cultural appropriate via clothes and food, but speech wise; I kinda have an opinion. With the recent success of Come From Away, I've been noticing more and more tourists trying to talk like a "Newfie." (I don't like that word, but I can't think of any other way to say it.) It grinds my gears. Now when people hear the accent, they think it's totally cool to try and talk like me. No, I was mocked for it, told to slow down, am I speaking English? And now because it's cool, you're trying to do it too. That hurts in a weird way. I don't know. It's the oddest feeling, something like being a sideshow.

So I guess it must feel similar with other things. If you live your life being mocked for being different and then see people taking it and making it cool because it's on them, or they're doing it; it has to sting?

[seraaa]

11 minutes ago, Carm_88 said:

I have mixed feelings on cultural appropriate via clothes and food, but speech wise; I kinda have an opinion. With the recent success of Come From Away, I've been noticing more and more tourists trying to talk like a "Newfie." (I don't like that word, but I can't think of any other way to say it.) It grinds my gears. Now when people hear the accent, they think it's totally cool to try and talk like me. No, I was mocked for it, told to slow down, am I speaking English? And now because it's cool, you're trying to do it too. That hurts in a weird way. I don't know. It's the oddest feeling, something like being a sideshow.

So I guess it must feel similar with other things. If you live your life being mocked for being different and then see people taking it and making it cool because it's on them, or they're doing it; it has to sting?

Because these people parodying it don't experience any of the potential loss of respect/snobbery/mocking of the people whose actual accent it is do? I think that's an understandable reaction

[libgirl2]

My mom briefly wore a turban for awhile. Come to thing of it, some of her friends did as well. 

[Carm_88]

5 minutes ago, seraaa said:

Because these people parodying it don't experience any of the potential loss of respect/snobbery/mocking of the people whose actual accent it is do? I think that's an understandable reaction

I guess it's because I know that most people don't mean it to be rude or mocking. They just don't know and that's even more frustrating.

[melon]

19 hours ago, Rachel333 said:

The issue a lot of people have is when there's a long history of black women being mocked for a particular style and all of the sudden it's cute and fashionable on white people. I don't blame black women at all for being upset about that.

When I was working, several black women would come to work wearing a bonnet.It looks like a shower cap.Another worker told me what it is called.I did not know.

I can assure you,I'd look utterly ridiculous if I went to work,like that.But,I felt like it wasn't my place or my business to say anything about.

But,I agreed with another co worker,who is black..she said they were lazy and just needed to fix their hair.I secretly thought to myself they just needed to maybe get up early and do their hair.

 

[seraaa]

2 minutes ago, Carm_88 said:

I guess it's because I know that most people don't mean it to be rude or mocking. They just don't know and that's even more frustrating.

it makes sense!

[SapphireSlytherin]

Many women who’ve lost their hair from chemotherapy wear turbans. White, Black, Brown, or plaid. 

Also, my (white) cousin’s granddaughter is a model on that baby-turban website (poshknots, I think it is).

[PlentyOfJesusFishInTheSea]

2 minutes ago, melon said:

But,I agreed with another co worker,who is black..she said they were lazy and just needed to fix their hair.I secretly thought to myself they just needed to maybe get up early and do their hair. 

 

I dunno, man, I am a white lady with straight hair that I just brush before going to work. If it had curls that took a lot of work, I would definitely consider wrapping my hair! Curly hair is a ton of work and I am pretty lazy and like sleep. Perhaps these women were overtired and underpaid.

[Rachel333]

3 hours ago, HereticHick said:

True. But as a mixed race person, I have real problems with telling people what they can and cannot wear/write/read/eat/cook/feel based on what I think their heritage is. As long as I'm being respectful, I don't like being told to stay in my lane.

Funny, when I see that style of turban with topnot, my first thought is of Sikh boys, not of African-Americans! : )

I actually only thought of Sikh boys too! Felicity's parents might not like that. 

[HereticHick]

1 hour ago, Rachel333 said:

I actually only thought of Sikh boys too! Felicity's parents might not like that. 

I promise if I ever meet Mittens Vuolo in a turban, I will say "Oh, what a cute little boy!  And I had no idea y'all were Sikhs! When did you convert?"

[PennySycamore]

@PlentyOfJesusFishInTheSea, you ain't kidding about curly/natural hair being a lot of work!  I was telling a mom not too long ago about how gorgeous her daughter's curls were.  She said that she had curly hair, too, but found it easier to care for if she didn't wear it curly.   @melon, those bonnets that you saw some co-workers wearing are called bonnets.  Many women with natural hair wear bonnets when they sleep so that their hair is not a tangled mess in the morning.  I myself use a satin pillowcase.  I saw a young black woman on our way to the Women's March in DC last year wearing a bonnet which I thought was smart.

 

[eye_browz]

I'm black. Yes, it's true, black women have traditionally covered their hair,in some African countries. I read somewhere that during slavery, the women would cover their hair as well. Today, it's fashionable to wear a pretty scarf or head covering to protect a woman's hair. 

However, about 100 years ago, babies of all races have always worn baby bonnets. I think they are so cute! All babies look cute in bonnets!! I don't think it's appropriation, it's a baby bonnet (or a head covering for a baby).

CLICK FOR CUTE BABIES!!

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[SilverBeach]

8 hours ago, melon said:

.I secretly thought to myself they just needed to maybe get up early and do their hair.

It may be best that any non-black woman not comment on what black women should or shouldn't do with their hair. I could write an essay here about the various types of black hair, and the complexities of caring for black hair, not to mention the expense of regular professional hair care services and specialized products. It's real easy to have a bad hair day as a black woman, and then societal judgement is heaped on top. Asian beauty supply markets make fortunes selling to black customers when they won't carry products made by black people. See the movie Good Hair by Chris Rock for some good insights on this topic. We have struggled with accepting our hair as beautiful as it  is, contorting ourselves into the beauty standard of the dominant culture at great cost to the health of our hair and pocketbook. OK, I'll stop here.

As for baby Felicity? I first thought of little Sikh boys, and thought she looked a little silly with that knotted thing on her head. Don't care at all.

[Georgiana]

It's also important to note that the dynamics of power an privilege are inconsistent and sometimes at odds in our increasingly globalized society.  How a member of a diaspora may feel about the use of their culture may be in direct opposition to how members still in the original locality feel about it.  This is because the experience of members of a diaspora is VERY different than the cultural experience of those in the original locality, especially when it comes to marginalization.

But then when two aspects of a single culture disagree, who is the authority?

For example, when I was in China, Chinese strangers straight up chewed out one of my American-born Chinese classmates when she expressed the opinion that I shouldn't purchase or wear a qi pao because I was white.  The Chinese found this sentiment absolutely abhorrent and went on to tell her that in their opinion, she needed to stay in her lane when it came to Chinese culture because the "real" Chinese would be the arbiters of where Chinese cultural boundaries were, that she had NO RIGHT to tell me I couldn't wear something when they thought it was fine, and that they could not understand WHY she would have an issue with a white person wearing Chinese clothing.  Further, they found it reeked of Western Imperialism that she would dare to come over and tell them what to do with their culture just because she was born in the West.   They were incredibly emphatic on this last point.  Bit of a sore spot for China, understandably.  

Now obviously, there were some dynamics in play that they didn't appreciate because they had not lived as a minority group in a Western country.  They never experienced movies where Chinese characters were played by white people in a costume with offensive stereotypes.  They never had to see white people dressed up in ridiculous costume versions of their dress designed to tokenize them.  They never had to deal with racist jokes on the playground or weird stares from classmates when their clothes/lunches/etc. weren't wonderbread sandwiches.  Or, even if they were aware of these things, they never experienced the power dynamics that would make such things seriously damaging, and would be more likely to look upon them with humor or benign interest.  Yet still, on another level, their outrage, offense, and many of the questions they asked should give us pause because they are indeed valid.  While the experience of a diaspora is important, it does not negate or supersede the experience or desires of the core group.  And it does indeed reek of imperialism to think that your opinion is superior just because you have a Western basis.  

So you're never going to find a clear line with appropriation.  This is also because it's often impossible to tell if someone is truly appropriating something just by looking at them.  Do you KNOW where they bought something from?  Do you KNOW whether or not they understand what they are wearing?  Do you KNOW if the culture in question would consider the use of the part of their culture OK or not?  Usually, you don't know these things.  So while it's easy to see that people like the Kardashians appropriate, it can be much harder when it comes to less blatant offenders.  

And there may not be a good answer for what is/what isn't.  Maybe just be respectful.  Listen.  Consider all points of view.  And make the call you feel is correct when opposite sides are in conflict.  

[Dandruff]

I'm glad that Felicity was wearing something that covered her ears because baseball stadiums can get extremely loud.

[PennySycamore]

@Georgiana,  my daughter was over on Sunday afternoon with her two daughter who are Chinese.  Anna and the King of Siam came on TCM and there's probably no worse example of yellowface in the history of Hollywood.  This is a movie with two Caucasian characters in it, but NONE of the main cast was Asian.  Some of the king's wives were played by Asian actresses, but nobody else.  It was Gale Sondergaard's second time playing an Asian or part Asian.  She had played Mrs Hammond, the Eurasian wife of the man that Leslie Crosbie killed,  in the 1940 film The Letter. In Somerset Maugham's play, Mrs Hammond was Chinese, but that was changed because of the Hays Code.  Somehow, the Hays Code would not accept a marriage between a Chinese woman and an Englishman, but it was okay to have a Eurasian.  How do they think that the woman was born Eurasian?  Crazy, wasn't it?  Btw, The Letter did have some Asian actors and not just in inconsequential roles either.  

Btw, both my Chinese granddaughters look beautiful in their qi pao (cheongsam)!

[Rachel333]

@Georgiana I've noticed too that people from a diaspora background are often much more sensitive to cultural appropriation, and it makes a lot of sense. I don't think we can say either that their opinion matters less than those who have never lived outside the culture in question, as I see often claimed from people who dismiss the idea of appropriation.

It's really not that simple an issue and you'll find a wide variety of opinions.

In this particular thread I felt like I needed to point out that appropriation can be a real issue since so many commenters seemed to dismiss it entirely, but there have been other threads where I felt like people were too quick to claim appropriation (for example, it came up when Jill attended an Iftar that she was invited to)!

[HerNameIsBuffy]

1 hour ago, Rachel333 said:

In this particular thread I felt like I needed to point out that appropriation can be a real issue since so many commenters seemed to dismiss it entirely

Maybe I missed it, but I didn't see anyone dismissing appropriation entirely...I saw people dismissing it in this instance of this hat.

Of which I'm one.  I believe there appropriation can be a real and complex issue in some cases, but in this where she is wearing something that is and has been worn across many, many cultures and ethnicity I don't understand how it can suddenly be seen as belonging to only one culture hence causing the appropriation.

 

[Rachel333]

8 minutes ago, HerNameIsBuffy said:

Maybe I missed it, but I didn't see anyone dismissing appropriation entirely...I saw people dismissing it in this instance of this hat.

Of which I'm one.  I believe there appropriation can be a real and complex issue in some cases, but in this where she is wearing something that is and has been worn across many, many cultures and ethnicity I don't understand how it can suddenly be seen as belonging to only one culture hence causing the appropriation.

 

No one outright said that cultural appropriation is never an issue, but there were three comments that to me felt dismissive of cultural appropriation in general and weren't talking about the particular issue of the hat.

[HerNameIsBuffy]

1 minute ago, Rachel333 said:

No one outright said that cultural appropriation is never an issue, but there were three comments that to me felt dismissive of cultural appropriation in general and weren't talking about the particular issue of the hat.

That's fair.  Just ftr if one of them was mine I was strictly talking about the hat.

[Rachel333]

1 minute ago, HerNameIsBuffy said:

That's fair.  Just ftr if one of them was mine I was strictly talking about the hat.

It wasn't.

With the hat though my interpretation was that people were talking about a particular style and not head wraps in general. I don't know that much about it, though; like I said earlier, my first thought was of Sikh boys.