JinJer & Felicity 44: The Glossy Veneer is Slipping

[NakedKnees]

I think the important question to ask with cultural appropriation is who is profiting off of something. Like, aboriginal people selling their own native art is a completely different thing than Anthropologies (just for example) selling keffiyah-based bags, which was in the news recently. 

In the case of Felicity's headwrap, I honestly don't know if it's something from African-American culture exclusively enough to really fit into this conversation, but I'm really not very educated on this subject at all so if anyone else wants to chime in about this, please do!

I have to admit that it rings a bit opportunistic and "holier than thou" to call wearing something which has a perhaps unclear amount of cultural value (compared with like... native headdresses, or bindis, or dashikis) racist. And then to double down on that.

Just my two cents. I had a super appropriative wardrobe as of about three years ago and have been working on improving it so it's just something I've thought about a lot.

[TuringMachine]

1 hour ago, HereticHick said:

FFS. I don't particularly like the baby turban, but enough already with the cultural appropriation hysteria.

Seriously. And honestly, accusing people of cultural appropriation often comes off more xenophobic than progressive.  Sharing cultures is a good thing.

I think it's safe to assume that Jinger put the wrap on her baby for no other reason than she thought it was cute. She's not trying to mock, disrespect or marginalize anyone. 

[HarleyQuinn]

I have a couple of friends who used those headwraps on their babies but none of them were white. So to me, admittedly it does look a little odd on Felicity but that's just because I've never seen a white baby wear one before. 

[EmmieJ]

13 hours ago, MaJessatic said:

Sometimes we get LDS missionaries, but I've not seen any for quite a while- possibly because the last time they knocked was a fairly rough day, and my response was "Hail Satan and have a nice day." 

Someday I hope to have the ovaries to say something like this LOL

[Rachel333]

The issue a lot of people have is when there's a long history of black women being mocked for a particular style and all of the sudden it's cute and fashionable on white people. I don't blame black women at all for being upset about that.

[allthegoodnamesrgone]

We also have to define cultural appreciation vs cultural appropriation. I'm not an expert on this so I don't dare give my idea of the difference even though I do have one.   I do think it is fine line and can be easily swayed either way.  For example a good friend of mine is married to a man of Indian descent, she is white German/French/Irish. When they married it was important to his family that they have a traditional Hindu wedding ceremony, so she and her white girl friends all wore beautiful Saris, the bride was give the traditional henna tattoos the night before her wedding she also has a bindi (dot) on her forehead that she wears when gathering with her in-laws as it is important for them.  She's been accused of "appropriation" by strangers but in this case it isn't, so we also have to be careful to understand that us white folks are in some cases being accepted into a "minority culture" and are honoring it for familial reasons, She is doing it out of respect for her husbands family and honestly she's fallen in love with the Indian culture, and will dress in saris frequently as she finds them very beautiful. She cooks full Indian meals that her MIL taught her, we've all learned quite about his rural Indian upbringing and their way of life. It is fascinating.  As much as I love the sari and the bindi and the jewelry that goes along with the look, me wearing it would feel like appropriation as there is no reason for me to follow Hindu rituals as I'm not nor will I ever be Hindu, doesn't mean I don't respect their beliefs it just means they aren't mine and I need to not ste[ on toes and so something they would consider rude.  

[Pretzel]

40 minutes ago, TuringMachine said:

Seriously. And honestly, accusing people of cultural appropriation often comes off more xenophobic than progressive.  Sharing cultures is a good thing.

I think it's safe to assume that Jinger put the wrap on her baby for no other reason than she thought it was cute. She's not trying to mock, disrespect or marginalize anyone. 

I have no other words than thank you. I am very afraid that all of a sudden, in recent times real cultural appropriation gets overlooked and people who actually appreciate a different culture and respect it and love it get accused of appropriation. 

I also don't understand the idea that you need some family-excuse like being married to someone of a certain culture for it to be okay to cook, dress, etc. like people of a certain culture. If you love a culture and you appreciate it, go for it. Be respectful, don't over do it. Educate yourself.

Needless to say, mocking is not and will never be okay. But unless you're mocking, I stand by the bolded above: 

 

Sharing cultures is a good thing. 

[Bad Wolf]

I had a picture of my mother and her friend during WW2 wearing turban hats. They were white and in England, so the hats have been around a while.

[samurai_sarah]

It's a very fine line indeed. But I draw a line, where a statistically dominant culture uses my meaningful traditional clothes as fashion accessories. I don't mind if someone wants to use my cultural stuff. Go ahead, but don't be an ass! It's not a costume, it means something. Let me try this differently: It MEANS something!

[VeryNikeSeamstress]

3 hours ago, Rachel333 said:

The issue a lot of people have is when there's a long history of black women being mocked for a particular style and all of the sudden it's cute and fashionable on white people. I don't blame black women at all for being upset about that.

There's also the issue of dress codes in the workplace forbidding natural African hairstyles because they look 'unprofessional'.  Basically black women are expected to either wear their hair short, or get expensive weaves/chemical treatments so that their look conforms to caucasian beauty standards in order to get hired at some places, or to attend some schools. I don't know much about the cultural traditions behind locs, box braids, and other African hairstyles, but as somebody with textured hair I could see how these hairstyles would be easier maintenance than fighting the frizz every day.

[gameofunbeknowns]

Between the turban and the fact that Jeremy just mentioned K-Ci and Jojo on tonight’s episode of Counting On, I’m kind of living for Jinger and Jeremy right now. 

Let me find out Jeremy puts on Barry White before sweet fellowship...

[Rachel333]

3 hours ago, Pretzel said:

I also don't understand the idea that you need some family-excuse like being married to someone of a certain culture for it to be okay to cook, dress, etc. like people of a certain culture. If you love a culture and you appreciate it, go for it. Be respectful, don't over do it. Educate yourself.

I don't quite agree. It does matter if you have a connection to a certain culture (not necessarily family level--it could be as minor as buying something from someone who is a member of the culture in question). Being invited to share in a culture is fundamentally different from deciding on your own that you like something and are going to use it. In the former case you're also not going to accidentally do something offensive like wear something that has a particular meaning.

I don't think anyone typically cares if you try to cook a particular food for yourself (as opposed to selling it) but you don't have a right to use aspects of a culture like traditional clothing just because you like it.

[Pretzel]

1 hour ago, gameofunbeknowns said:

Between the turban and the fact that Jeremy just mentioned K-Ci and Jojo on tonight’s episode of Counting On, I’m kind of living for Jinger and Jeremy right now. 

Let me find out Jeremy puts on Barry White before sweet fellowship...

"Can't get enough of your love Baaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaabeeee..."

[kmachete14]

I'm annoyed Jinger and Jeremy are still walking around polluting Chicago, but also jealous I'm not downtown to try and sneak a peek at them! Jeremy annoys me so much for thinking he can have his cake (fundamental Christianity and its evils) and eat it too (live an otherwise mainstream millennial life). Ugh so despicable. I wonder if the friend he did the wedding for even knows the extremity of his beliefs or just thought it would be fun to have an old buddy officiate. 

[justoneoftwo]

2 hours ago, Rachel333 said:

 

I don't think anyone typically cares if you try to cook a particular food for yourself (as opposed to selling it) but you don't have a right to use aspects of a culture like traditional clothing just because you like it.

ok, but why?  Why is wearing clothing (not ceremonial clothing, just clothing) different than food?  Saris are beautiful, don't have specific meaning, and so on.  Indian food is amazing.  Why is it different?  I honestly don't understand.  

[SilverBeach]

On 9/30/2018 at 8:43 PM, TeaELSee said:

it appears the wedding he officiated was in Aurora.

Way too close for comfort!

[Rachel333]

35 minutes ago, justoneoftwo said:

ok, but why?  Why is wearing clothing (not ceremonial clothing, just clothing) different than food?  Saris are beautiful, don't have specific meaning, and so on.  Indian food is amazing.  Why is it different?  I honestly don't understand.  

Maybe some people do have issues with privately appropriating food, I don't know, but the point with clothing is that it might have a meaning that you don't understand and you shouldn't just assume it's yours to take. Even if it doesn't, publicly wearing clothes from a culture that isn't yours is different from privately enjoying food. 

If you buy a sari from an Indian person who wants to sell it to you then that's not appropriation, but the point is that you shouldn't assume that because you think something is pretty you can make it yours. It might not be a problem in some cases, but in other cases it really might bother people from that culture, and the attitude that you should be able to take anything you enjoy is the reason cultural appropriation is a problem. That's how you get problems like white people seeing a warbonnet, which has a specific meaning and isn't for just anyone to wear, deciding they like it, and turning something sacred into this:

Spoiler

 

[SapphireSlytherin]

2 hours ago, kmachete14 said:

I'm annoyed Jinger and Jeremy are still walking around polluting Chicago, but also jealous I'm not downtown to try and sneak a peek at them! Jeremy annoys me so much for thinking he can have his cake (fundamental Christianity and its evils) and eat it too (live an otherwise mainstream millennial life). Ugh so despicable. I wonder if the friend he did the wedding for even knows the extremity of his beliefs or just thought it would be fun to have an old buddy officiate. 

I’ve been downtown all day and haven’t seen them. Lol

[PennySycamore]

I wear kurtas all the time during the summer.  I hope that's not cultural appropriation.  It's just me being an old hippie!

[cascarones]

From the perspective of someone who navigated an interracial relationship, it's tricky and I was lucky to have guidance. Traditional clothing was worn with his family, it's beautiful, but really the grocery store doesn't need to see me in silk brocade. Jewelry is a lot less problematic as long as it fits the occasion (wearing a simple jade necklace right now).

Food is different, but also nuanced. I operate on the line is if you wouldn't order it in a restaurant don't serve it to guests of a different culture. Take a moment and think 'Does anyone at this brunch know what mung bean porridge is or want it?' If the answer is no, make your porridge another day and be happy you don't have to share it.

Cultural appreciation and appropriation are different in intent and reasons, for the most part appropriation is careless (purchased because it was cool and at urban outfitters) and not malicious. It's just a difference that's impossible to see at first glance. It's judged the same way fur and leather are. Some people are really passionate about no fur, some give zero cares, but at first glance there's no tell if the fur is fake or real. The assumption will always be that it is real fur and the umbrage reactions are from discreet eye rolling to extreme paint throwing.

It's ultimately individual preference, but it is something to be cognizant of.

That probably didn't make any sense, but I tried.

[MaJessatic]

At the moment, there's a trend for the more Woke apparel companies to hire Indigenous artists to create art to be printed onto clothing, with a portion of the proceeds towards Indigenous welfare charities and such. The art is gorgeous, and I'd love one of the shirts or some leggings for SmallJessatic, but they're also worn quite heavily by the local Indigenous population as a mark of Aboriginal Pride (along with the usual red, yellow, and black accessories) that I've held myself back from buying any. It just feels like...IDK, it's not for me. Like I'd be claiming heritage I don't have. 
I guess I feel the same about the style of headwrap Felicity is wearing- I've only ever seen the style on African-Australians, not on some milk-white loon like me, and so I err on the side of caution and tell wearers how gorgeous their wrap is instead of wearing one myself. 

[HerNameIsBuffy]

11 minutes ago, MaJessatic said:

African-Australians, not on some milk-white loon like me

I don't pretend to know what's the styles are in Australia but this entire conversation is baffling me.  

Google women's turbans 1970s, 1940s, 1920s...to start and you'll see similar worn as fashion on all ethnicity including white.  A young Queen Elizabeth,  Elizabeth Taylor, to name a couple famous women and lots in the vintage fashion.

Ignoring that this is a style that's been worn by many, many ethnic groups over long periods of time makes no sense to me....like many things it's just making the rounds being back in style again for a while.

[MaJessatic]

2 minutes ago, HerNameIsBuffy said:

I don't pretend to know what's the styles are in Australia but this entire conversation is baffling me.  

Google women's turbans 1970s, 1940s, 1920s...to start and you'll see similar worn as fashion on all ethnicity including white.  A young Queen Elizabeth,  Elizabeth Taylor, to name a couple famous women and lots in the vintage fashion.

Ignoring that this is a style that's been worn by many, many ethnic groups over long periods of time makes no sense to me....like many things it's just making the rounds being back in style again for a while.

Sure- turbans have been worn by white people for yonks. Absolutely. They're kinda creeping into alternative fashion here, but they're always pre-made, hat-like turbans (if that makes sense?), that are worn as part of a glitzy night-out outfit. I've yet to see a wrap (as opposed to a turban) worn in the day time by a white person in my city, and it's not something I'm comfortable doing, at this moment in time. 
 

[HereticHick]

16 hours ago, Rachel333 said:

The issue a lot of people have is when there's a long history of black women being mocked for a particular style and all of the sudden it's cute and fashionable on white people. I don't blame black women at all for being upset about that.

True. But as a mixed race person, I have real problems with telling people what they can and cannot wear/write/read/eat/cook/feel based on what I think their heritage is. As long as I'm being respectful, I don't like being told to stay in my lane.

Funny, when I see that style of turban with topnot, my first thought is of Sikh boys, not of African-Americans! : )

[allthegoodnamesrgone]

43 minutes ago, HereticHick said:

True. But as a mixed race person, I have real problems with telling people what they can and cannot wear/write/read/eat/cook/feel based on what I think their heritage is. As long as I'm being respectful, I don't like being told to stay in my lane.

Funny, when I see that style of turban with topnot, my first thought is of Sikh boys, not of African-Americans! : )

When I see them I always think of this.

Spoiler