JinJer & Felicity 44: The Glossy Veneer is Slipping

[CorruptionInc.]

On 9/22/2018 at 9:52 AM, feministxtian said:

Understand that what's "yours" isn't really yours. You can't take it with you. 

Will pay for you to fly out to Aussie land and point this out to some people I know.

Consumerism and Materialism make my brain boil - I study Sociology so it's boiling a lot.

I do worry for the people that spend the whole time getting things they cant afford to impress people they either don't like; or for people who couldn't give a f%$k where you live etc. 

Also, as you said; if you're my friend, you're my friend. It's as simple and as complicated as that. 

[SapphireSlytherin]

8 hours ago, sleepy_doggos said:

some people identify with their ancestry more than others!

True. I have a friend who says she is "100% Irish" and shares allllll the FB memes about being Irish, says "Irish families do (insert action here) all the time," and celebrates St. Patrick's Day for a month. Says it's innate and she has no control over it.

When my blood relatives and I did our DNA testing (through multiple DNA testing firms) we were all *shocked* to find that, contrary to family lore, we had zero (nada, zilch) Native American DNA. We were also further surprised that our German ancestry had been overstated for generations... I'm mostly Irish, Welsh, and Scottish.

To find out you're not what (who) you thought you were is a bit... unsettling. I even sort of "mourned" the change in my family identity. Irish friend was PISSED that I wasn't thrilled to be Irish, even though that's not how I put it to her when sharing my results. She immediately posted a meme on my FB, saying something about being born and raised Irish. I tried to explain to her about nature vs. nurture, and that all our lives, my cousins, aunts, uncles, parents, and grandparents had just worked from the assumption that our German and Sioux heritage were the reason we did certain things.

 

[cascarones]

The ancestry DNA tests are fairly bunk, they're testing unregulated samples sent though the mail and using your given name as a highly weighted variable to fill in the gaps. Especially tricky for NA, when we did our own in genetics lab years back I had loci markers in the Pacific Islander ancestry category, because that was as specific as it got. Off of that, I was 80%, which is too high given my mother has no blood ties to any tribe. DNA and genealogy records should go hand in hand for understanding roots. Along with understanding official records rarely show name conversions when a Christian name was taken as an adult.

I do personally think there's a difference between celebrating your roots (go Irish) and carrying on with family traditions (candle in the window and open stove). Not everyone views it that way and there's no wrong or right way to handle ancestry.

[Edhelfin]

Never wanted to say 'I told you so' this much in my life.

The hot husband who allows his wife to wear pants is a bigot. Wow, who knew...

[SapphireSlytherin]

Bunk or no - when the results were in, the haplogroup for the men, including my dad's brother, (who were asked to be tested for dozens of markers, rather than the "basic" test) was pretty consistent with huge results for Vikings and Celts, with a few "outliers" - as you would expect.

Our family's haplogroup is observed in significant frequencies in Europe and Western Asia in addition to Africa, dating to about 2400 years ago, and is apparently descended from the tribe of Levi.

And I do understand that the "basic DNA test" is for fun/games/entertainment, and typically gives ancestral results based on "matches" of people who live in specific areas.

Further:  I've been able to find relatives from the one dead-end on my personal family tree (my mom's side - with a bitter divorce/alienation). It's been... interesting.

 

 

 

[feministxtian]

4 hours ago, CorruptionInc. said:

Will pay for you to fly out to Aussie land and point this out to some people I know.

Consumerism and Materialism make my brain boil - I study Sociology so it's boiling a lot.

I do worry for the people that spend the whole time getting things they cant afford to impress people they either don't like; or for people who couldn't give a f%$k where you live etc. 

Also, as you said; if you're my friend, you're my friend. It's as simple and as complicated as that. 

I have no problems with wanting to live a nice, comfortable life, with enough for your needs. I mean, as soon as we could, we moved to the nice apartment complex with the guard at the gate, the 2 car garage, the nice townhouse. Then, when the Mustang got to be way too uncomfortable for commuting, we ruptured the budget and bought a nearly-new SUV. 

BUT...at some point, it becomes how much do you really need. If you have a house, wheels, enough to eat, clothes in your closet and can keep the lights on, a little extra in your pocket for fun, at what point does it become ridiculous? Our income has doubled and I'm pretty much still as cheap as I've ever been (no, I'm not "frugal", I'm cheap as fuck"). We made some changes and it's awfully nice to be able to hit the grocery store between paychecks, but,,,there's a point when it becomes pure greed. 

[precious blessing]

Racism is probably... the one thing that pisses me off the most. Like others have so eloquently explained - it just doesn't make any sense to me. Because I type walls of text, I've written about my experiences with racism under spoiler. There's so much more I could say, but I've largely focused on my childhood exposure.

Spoiler

I'll admit that in my teenage years I had a very different perspective than I do now. I never hated other races or thought any were superior/inferior, but separatism made sense to me - it was simpler for an individual to stick to their ethnic group.

I come from a background with basically no diversity. As a child, when I did interact with someone of a different ethnicity, it never really phased me other than "oh, we look different. cool." I come from a pretty proud (but small) family, which has extensively documented our family's history. We trace our roots back to the "first" of our last name to come to America. We live on the same land they did (130 acres awarded for service in the revolutionary war, I believe.) When I was all of 4 years old, I recall my sister and I standing in our hallway with my father, looking at the portraits of our ancestors. My dad must have been explaining who they were to us - but I distinctly recall him telling us "All black people are bad." My innocent mind didn't comprehend "Even Michael Jordan?" I responded - my dad chuckled and said yes. This didn't change my view... but always stayed with me - even at that age, I thought what he said was wrong. Several different interactions with black people during my childhood have stuck out in my mind. 1) meeting a black girl at summer camp and telling her I loved her hair, which was met with the 9-yearold version of "Fuck off." 2) attending a girl scout rally where I was bullied the whole time by a troupe of black girls from the city. During these events, I was always bullied by someone because I was socially awkward, but I felt like they singled me out because I seemed standoffish - they probably thought it was because they were black, but I was really that way with any strangers.

Another traumatic from my childhood unfortunately was at the hands of a community college summer camp teacher who happened to be black. She really made me feel like utter shit... In our class, she gave us an assignment - fill a piece of paper with as many dots as you can. I thought this was incredibly stupid.... so I sarcastically only drew two dots on the paper. She reacted by telling me it was a test to see how hard we're willing to go before we give up, and that I would never get far in life... I was fucking 9 years old.  And she didn't know my background! I had extreme self-esteem issues and was seeing a therapist for depression. She also singled me out for wearing a sports hoodie that donned my last name on the back - she said it was stupid to wear something like that because if someone wanted to abduct me, they could stop me by calling out my name. What the actual fuck, lady? If I recall, this was a class about developing positive self-image, and she was actually a professor of something or another. Under the assumption that she studied psychology or something, she should have realized that my "prissy" behavior was because I was troubled in some way. Why did she single me out? I have no idea. Being the "whitest" child in that class (it was a small class of around 6 kids), was that why? I really don't know.

Anyway, I was raised by one parent who was blatantly racist. I didn't adopt his views, but affected me in that I became used to hearing all sorts of nasty things. In my family tree, I know I have a direct ancestor who was black (but not much more because no one likes to talk about it, but they aren't racist!) Another link was my paternal grandmother, who was rumored to have a black grandfather (I'd say pretty credibly, but again, no one likes to talk about it) I suspect one of the reasons my dad is so biased is because he was bullied growing up during the 50s-60s for looking black. In reality, he does look like he could be biracial (very thick black hair, full lips, striking dark eyes that no one else in his direct family had, skin that has always been deeply tanned by the outdoors)

In my adult life practically as soon as I was introduced to people that weren't white, I realized the way of talking I had been exposed to was politically incorrect. Most of my friends aren't white, and we became friends because I enjoy discussing cultural differences and the whitewashing of america so much. My boyfriend is Hmong, which admittedly is quite daunting as I am someone who is still very "white" and he is a very proud Hmong man. It's one of the things I love him for, but admittedly I have a hard time knowing where I fit in. I guess I just have to relax about it, yeah?

 

[Carm_88]

I hate when people look at me and say "You must be Irish." "No, I'm Canadian." "You even sound Irish." "Not really, I'm from Newfoundland." Yes, my 5X Great Grandfather was Irish, I have Irish roots, I personally am not Irish. I very much am Canadian and a proud Newfoundlander at that. We are special in our own way, but yes the whole province has a lot of Irish roots. Yes, a lot of has red hair; yes I know my hair is red, thank you Captain Obvious.

[louisa05]

You all, this is just normal conservative evangelicalism. Everyone you know whose car is parked at the local mega-church this morning subscribes to what Jeremy is preaching to some degree. 

I honestly find it kind of weird that the stuff he says is considered so very shocking or scandalous and all. Is it deplorable? Absolutely. But it isn't anything new. It is what was preached at the Christian school when I went there 24 years ago. It is what my college roommate was steeped in at a summer program her parents sent their kids to in the 80s (google Summit Ministries in Colorado).  My fundagelical relatives have been preaching the same stuff since the 50s when they got sucked into it. 

I never believed that he held different beliefs. But I do believe that evangelicals of his tradition tend to be more open to changing beliefs than fundamentalists of the Gothard type traditions. Many, many young people in the evangelical world are openly questioning the movement's political and social beliefs (which inspired this whole statement). And I have known many people raised in that movement who were hardcore as teens and young adults that have left in their 30s or 40s or later. My mother's cousin was a pastor in that tradition and left in his 60s. I also know that that tradition is more open to education, typically views homeschooling as optional rather than mandatory and does not, as a general rule, entirely eschew birth control. So Jinger is better off at this point and there is a bigger chance that she or children will move away from it than there is for the ones still more immersed in Gothardism or a similar belief system. 

[Rachel333]

28 minutes ago, louisa05 said:

I honestly find it kind of weird that the stuff he says is considered so very shocking or scandalous and all.

It's not. We're not talking about it because it's shocking or unusual to hold those beliefs. As @formergothardite put it, the only thing surprising here is that he's being public about his beliefs. But I do think that it should be scandalous that he holds racist and misogynist beliefs, no matter how common those beliefs are. And given the more polished image that he and Jinger have projected, I think it's important that people realize how terrible they still are.

[Nikedagain?]

On 9/20/2018 at 8:43 PM, BernRul said:

TX is going to eventually become a blue state (or at least a deeply purple state) , and once it does, it will be impossible for Republicans to steal another election. I'm not saying it's going to happen soon, or in time for my baby angel Beto to beat out the Zodiac killer (I do have a feeling Beto will be more successful in 2020 on a broader scale, but who really knows at this point) . It will take years, probably decades, but it will happen in my lifetime for sure.

BRB, just moving to Texas real quick to vote for Beto. 

[BernRul]

10 minutes ago, Nikedagain? said:

BRB, just moving to Texas real quick to vote for Beto. 

Beto O'Rourke is my current celebrity crush. 

[VelociRapture]

1 hour ago, Rachel333 said:

It's not. We're not talking about it because it's shocking or unusual to hold those beliefs. As @formergothardite put it, the only thing surprising here is that he's being public about his beliefs. But I do think that it should be scandalous that he holds racist and misogynist beliefs, no matter how common those beliefs are. And given the more polished image that he and Jinger have projected, I think it's important that people realize how terrible they still are.

I agree. I also think it’s important to hold them accountable for their current beliefs and actions, even while understanding that they could eventually rethink their beliefs. If they do change their beliefs down the road then that’s a great thing and I’d be more than happy to praise them for putting forth the effort to do so (even if they don’t change their views on everything.) But until then I do think they need to be held accountable and called out when they do or say despicable things, even if those things aren’t unexpected. 

(I’ve attempted to say as much in the past and have failed to communicate my point clearly at times. I’m hoping this attempt was more successful.) 

[PennySycamore]

@cascarones,  I got an email the other day from Ancestry saying that my DNA had been re-analyzed and that my subgroups were not trace amounts or less than 5% of Italian/Greek, Northern African, Eastern European Jewish and Turkish, Armenian, Iraqi.  Those trace regions were now German!  What the fuck?  I also had the ability to accept the new results.  I already knew I had some German ancestry so I didn't change my trace regions.  It does say that I've got about a quarter Scottish/Irish/Welsh ancestry which is weird as I don't know of any offhand.  The tests have never shown any Basque ancestry although that not might come through as a separate group, but show up as French/Spanish which it does show.   It should as Basques are pretty distinctive genetically-speaking. 

There's a youtube channel for genealogy addicts.  They've got one video up about why your Native American ancestry might not show in Ancestry type tests even of your Native ancestry is fairly recent. It's very interesting.  One of the things my husband wanted my DNA to show was my Native ancestry which we know we have on my father's side.  

One thing they did have on Ancestry is maps showing the migration of various branches of your family.  I knew we had distant family in central Pennsylvania, but not in the Rochester/Buffalo area of New York State.   

[nickelodeon]

2 hours ago, louisa05 said:

You all, this is just normal conservative evangelicalism. Everyone you know whose car is parked at the local mega-church this morning subscribes to what Jeremy is preaching to some degree. 

Those people suck too. Their existence (in huge numbers) doesn't make the Duggars' suckiness not worth discussing, though; heck, the more common these polemics are, the more important it is to discuss them and say "hey, this shouldn't be normal!"

[louisa05]

7 minutes ago, nickelodeon said:

Those people suck too. Their existence (in huge numbers) doesn't make the Duggars' suckiness not worth discussing, though; heck, the more common these polemics are, the more important it is to discuss them and say "hey, this shouldn't be normal!"

I didn't say it should be normal. But so many posters here are acting as if 1--It's all terribly out of the ordinary. 2--These are new ideas in that community. 3--It is scandalously shocking that an evangelical pastor believes in ideas that have been part of the evangelical world view for a half a century or more. 

Those three things are terribly absurd. This is Evangelical World View Theology 101. 

[Knight of Ni]

My Dad’s results say he has Neanderthal DNA. It makes me wonder how evangelical Christians explain the presence of Neanderthal DNA in the human genome. 

[Rachel333]

26 minutes ago, louisa05 said:

I didn't say it should be normal. But so many posters here are acting as if 1--It's all terribly out of the ordinary. 2--These are new ideas in that community. 3--It is scandalously shocking that an evangelical pastor believes in ideas that have been part of the evangelical world view for a half a century or more. 

Those three things are terribly absurd. This is Evangelical World View Theology 101. 

I don't see "so many posters" acting like that at all.

[nickelodeon]

31 minutes ago, louisa05 said:

I didn't say it should be normal. But so many posters here are acting as if 1--It's all terribly out of the ordinary. 2--These are new ideas in that community. 3--It is scandalously shocking that an evangelical pastor believes in ideas that have been part of the evangelical world view for a half a century or more. 

Those three things are terribly absurd. This is Evangelical World View Theology 101. 

I see where you're coming from; the "actual Christians are not bigoted" responses that this sort of discussion generates can come across as dishonest, sure. Fundie bigotry doesn't exist in a vacuum. But I don't fault people for reacting with disgust to statements that are disgusting, no matter how common they are.

[Rachel333]

6 minutes ago, nickelodeon said:

But I don't fault people for reacting with disgust to statements that are disgusting, no matter how common they are.

That's the thing: a lot of disgusting beliefs are, unfortunately, very common. Racism is extremely common, but I hope people still act like it's "scandalous" when someone is revealed to be a racist.

[PennySycamore]

2 hours ago, Knight of Ni said:

My Dad’s results say he has Neanderthal DNA. It makes me wonder how evangelical Christians explain the presence of Neanderthal DNA in the human genome. 

I think it would be really cool to find evidence of Neanderthal in my DNA analysis!  People researching the origins of the Basques considered whether or not they might have a bit of Neanderthal ancestry.  They don't, but they do have the highest incidence of O negative blood in the world.

[Markie]

Are all ancestry DNA companies about the same, or are some more reliable than others?

[Lizzybet]

16 minutes ago, Markie said:

Are all ancestry DNA companies about the same, or are some more reliable than others?

I’m on 23andme, but don’t know which is considered the best.

Regarding Neanderthal DNA, I score 3.4%, but the highest that modern humans can have is 4%.

...... so, I’m pretty Neanderthal-y.

[formergothardite]

2 hours ago, Rachel333 said:

That's the thing: a lot of disgusting beliefs are, unfortunately, very common.

Yes, sadly a lot of people believe a lot of really awful things. The only truly shocking thing would be if one of the Duggars or Bates condemned in public the harmful beliefs that are so prevalent in most evangelical churches. I think it would be safe to assume that no matter how cute and modern they dress, most of the members of these families share the beliefs that only a few of them have actually made public. 

[Gillyweed]

3 hours ago, Knight of Ni said:

My Dad’s results say he has Neanderthal DNA. It makes me wonder how evangelical Christians explain the presence of Neanderthal DNA in the human genome. 

My dad's did too! He has 92% more neanderthal DNA than the average person. He's also 100% irish. That wasn't much if a shock, but it's still hilarious, especially since my mom, who we thought was 100% italian, has a little bit of everything from the mediterranean.