Counting On season 5/6/7 Part 3 - Weddings, Babies, and Denial

[Buzzard]

10 hours ago, QuiverFullofBooks said:

I think the TH is at Joe and Kendra’s house. It’s right next to the TTC, so they took the banners and cookies over there.

The guy in the Home Chef ad looks like my cousin. Not sure. Too bad I already deleted the episode. 

TLC definitely put every time Austin said “etticacy” in the final edit to make fun of him. He’s super uptight and Joy is out of fucks to give. Hopefully they will balance each other instead of driving each other insane.

But that still leaves me confused.  JoKen came straight to the TTH when they got out of the hospital.  Kendra was still wearing her hospital bracelet.  Why would they bake cookies during labor and bring them to the house so they can sit and get stale for 3 days and paper can be out in the elements... for JoKen to be "welcomed" back at the TTH?

Oh right, Duggars!

Is anyone else wondering where Jessa's kids were during the sibling dinner?  They were left to wreak havoc during the set up, but missing during dinner itself.  

[Four is Enough]

18 hours ago, Carm_88 said:

 If you walked into someone's house and you didn't see a crucifix, a piece of palm made into a cross, and a picture of Jesus in a frame of shells with his heart on fire as he points in it; I'd be wondering what land I stepped into.*

Don't forget the holy water font at the front door so you can bless yourself coming in and going out!

18 hours ago, Carm_88 said:

Hahah yep! Which is where you get one of favourite turn of phrase "Christ on a cracker." My other favourites are "Sweet immaculate baby jesus." "Jesus, Mary, and Joseph in the garden" and "Gentle/German Jesus." My Dad's is "Dancing, prancing Jesus Christ."

My mother used to say, "Jesus wept and Mary cried and Joseph went a-fishin"

18 hours ago, viii said:

Long story short, I started attending a Pentecostal church, and while I enjoy it for 95% of the time, I still haven't adjusted to the speaking in tongues. I find it weird and uncomfortable, and it always makes me want to laugh. 

In the Bible, when the story pops up about the apostles suddenly speaking in tongues, I always figured it meant that they could now speak in other real languages, so as to make the gospel understood to other people. All I've ever heard of modern people speaking in tongues is gibberish. Why is this considered "of the Holy Spirit" when it's something so readily made up?

(I'm sure you can't answer this question. I'm throwing it out there because I've never understood.)

16 hours ago, Satan'sFortress said:

Do non-Catholic Christians not recognize Good Friday as a big deal?  We were literally not allowed to play or do anything too loud or disruptive during the hours that Jesus was dying on the cross (I have no idea who figured out what those hours were--maybe my mom just made that up to get us to shut the hell up once a year?)  It seems like a respectful thing to do--to take the one day and think about how Jesus dies for their salvation?

My teachers always said you can't have Easter with out Good Friday.  The hours of quiet are to represent the hours Jesus spent hanging on the cross. Remember there was a big deal about getting him buried before the sun went down, so it stands to reason his passion was in the early to mid afternoon.

I've read somewhere, can't remember where, that Catholicism is a "blood religion." Certainly I've seen altarpieces, statues, crucifixes, and beautifully colored books of hours with illustrations depicting massively bloody, tortured things. Even the drolleries in the margins depict hunting scenes, with bloody animals, or other ephemera that might be considered disturbing now. Stained glass windows aren't always so serene either.

I learned that the images so depicted were there for a mostly illiterate audience to look at and contemplate the lives of Jesus (and yes, some of the saints) and to really drive home the suffering involved in being an early Christian. To me, that makes sense. Much of the Mass in the Middle ages was conducted behind a rood screen, being considered too holy to be seen by the common people standing (yes, standing) in the audience.

 

[allthegoodnamesrgone]

1 hour ago, Buzzard said:

But that still leaves me confused.  JoKen came straight to the TTH when they got out of the hospital.  Kendra was still wearing her hospital bracelet.  Why would they bake cookies during labor and bring them to the house so they can sit and get stale for 3 days and paper can be out in the elements... for JoKen to be "welcomed" back at the TTH?

Oh right, Duggars!

Is anyone else wondering where Jessa's kids were during the sibling dinner?  They were left to wreak havoc during the set up, but missing during dinner itself.  

The cookie thing was just a time filler I'm guessing. I'm guessing they were only in the hospital for 24 hours, you CAN leave earlier if you want to, I left 48 hours after my 2nd c/section no reason for me to be at the hospital, I wanted to go home and I did, she had a short(ish) easy labor she may have gone home the very next day.

Either the Seawald boy's were napping or they were being watched by someone, i.e. Johanna or Jenni.

[libgirl2]

1 hour ago, Four is Enough said:

 

In the Bible, when the story pops up about the apostles suddenly speaking in tongues, I always figured it meant that they could now speak in other real languages, so as to make the gospel understood to other people. All I've ever heard of modern people speaking in tongues is gibberish. Why is this considered "of the Holy Spirit" when it's something so readily made up?

(I'm sure you can't answer this question. I'm throwing it out there because I've never understood.)

 

 

I always thought it meant languages too. 

15 hours ago, nickelodeon said:

I kind of dig the crucifix-with-corpus more than the clean cross, but I also like gory Baroque religious paintings. I think they're interesting.

Have you ever seen the altar piece by  Matthias Grünewald? Its pretty rough to look at. 

[Meggo]

4 hours ago, dharmapunk said:

Growing up Catholic I don't recall this part at all. I was taught Jesus died for "us"  in the generic sense. i.e. the sins of all of humanity. Believing that Jesus died for one person's specific sins is something I associate with fundies like the Duggars. (plus it does not even make any sense - how could Jesus die specifically for something I would not do until more than 2000 years later)

Also I don't remember good friday as being that much of a deal. Being overly cheerful was not encouraged and we went to church like almost every day in the week before Easter. But the Resurrection was the major event. Also in my country good friday is NOT a public holiday for Catholics - but Protestants do get the day off, which is why I always assumed it was a bigger deal for them than for Catholics.

As a Catholic kid - I hated Good Friday. We went to church - like you said - because we went to church every day that week for something or other. 
But on Good Friday - we were NOT allowed to do anything from 1-3 pm. No books, no tv, no radio, no playing. Just. Sitting.

Even now - I do not call my mother on Good Friday until the evening because I know she's sitting somewhere - reading a prayer book or something (I sometimes feel like her religious-ness is more for show than for belief - like she's part of a sorority and needs to "do these lessons" or something...) 

Now - my husbands family - Mennonite (which I think is a branch of Protestant?) - his family used to have their family Easter dinner ON Good Friday! 

[DillyDally]

Found the last episode on youtube (still looking for the one with the gender reveal), hope it stays up for a couple of hours so I can watch it later.

 

[punkiepie]

17 hours ago, Satan'sFortress said:

Do non-Catholic Christians not recognize Good Friday as a big deal?  We were literally not allowed to play or do anything too loud or disruptive during the hours that Jesus was dying on the cross (I have no idea who figured out what those hours were--maybe my mom just made that up to get us to shut the hell up once a year?)  It seems like a respectful thing to do--to take the one day and think about how Jesus dies for their salvation?

I grew up IFB fundie/fundie-lite and Good Friday was like any other day of the week.  When I would ask why we didn't do anything to acknowledge the day, I was always told because we celebrate and honor his resurrection, not his death.  One time, my Sunday school teacher gave us palm fronds on Palm Sunday and there was a big hubbub about that being wrong.   Baptists tend to go overboard in their efforts to not do anything that seems like rituals or rites or being rote.  Their liturgy is not have any liturgy.

[Rachel333]

1 hour ago, Four is Enough said:

In the Bible, when the story pops up about the apostles suddenly speaking in tongues, I always figured it meant that they could now speak in other real languages, so as to make the gospel understood to other people. All I've ever heard of modern people speaking in tongues is gibberish. Why is this considered "of the Holy Spirit" when it's something so readily made up?

Well, they obviously don't think it's made up when they're doing it (even though everyone seems to have their own signature syllables that they particularly like to repeat!) and they have lots of stories where a group of people are on a mission trip and they don't have a translator one night so someone preaches in tongues and the audience understands it. They also believe the tongues don't have to be earthly tongues; they can also be tongues of angels. 1st Corinthians 13:1 says (bolding mine), "Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I have become sounding brass or a clanging cymbal."

You're actually not supposed to pray in tongues in public unless someone translates afterwards. This doesn't always happen, but I've heard it many times. Someone will pray in tongues and then someone else feels like God is giving them the translation so they translate it for the church. In private it's different. One aspect of the belief in tongues that seemed more appealing to me is that they believe that when they pray in tongues in private they don't need to worry about having the right words to pray because the Holy Spirit gives them the words and lets them express thing that they would be unable to put to words. As someone with a lot of anxiety for which I can't always pinpoint a cause I did find that idea comforting in theory.

1st Corinthians 14 discusses the difference between praying in tongues in private vs. in public.

Quote

For he who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God, for no one understands him; however, in the spirit he speaks mysteries. 3 But he who prophesies speaks edification and exhortation and comfort to men. 4 He who speaks in a tongue edifies himself, but he who prophesies edifies the church.

Quote

 Therefore let him who speaks in a tongue pray that he may interpret. 14 For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my understanding is unfruitful. 15 What is the conclusion then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will also pray with the understanding. I will sing with the spirit, and I will also sing with the understanding.

Quote

How is it then, brethren? Whenever you come together, each of you has a psalm, has a teaching, has a tongue, has a revelation, has an interpretation. Let all things be done for [h]edification. 27 If anyone speaks in a tongue, let there be two or at the most three, each in turn, and let one interpret. 28 But if there is no interpreter, let him keep silent in church, and let him speak to himself and to God. 

 

[griffin]

Hey Carm, thanks for the explanation. I've heard "Christ on a cracker" all my life but never made the connection. ( the things I learn from FJ! ). My aunt always said "Jesus, Mary and Joseph and all the bald-headed saints!"

[MoonFace]

On 9/18/2018 at 2:30 PM, neurogirl said:

Playing Duggar's advocate (sorry), it could all be for TV. If the bridal store she went to works like kleinfield's or any other bridal salon, they would've put her in the dress that checked all her boxes first. But they can't film..and dress 1 is it! So they put her in all the other ones for show. Or they could  be incompetent. I don't know!

I'm just glad no one was filming my dress experience. An entourage of 6, 2 days, 3 stores, about 40 dresses, crying and wine...and 5 months later finding my actual dress by myself lol. That would not have made for good tv. 

My daughter came to visit (from across the country) and we made an appointment to go wedding dress shopping - The Saturday before CHRISTMAS!!  But the day before we were taking a road trip and the roads in New England were bad so we had to get off the highway.   Spur of the moment we decided to stop at a shop in a small town.  The owners were not there - couldn't get out because of the storm.  The daughter's owner was there but didn't know anything about the dresses.   We said we were just looking.  

My daughter pulled two dresses and I pulled one.  She wasn't dressed for trying on wedding gowns - wrong bra, wool socks.   She tried on her first choice and liked it.   She tried on the one I pulled and said, THIS IS IT!   It fit her like a glove, was on clearance and we walked out with it in tow.   DONE!   

[ati_escapee]

1 hour ago, punkiepie said:

I grew up IFB fundie/fundie-lite and Good Friday was like any other day of the week.  When I would ask why we didn't do anything to acknowledge the day, I was always told because we celebrate and honor his resurrection, not his death.  One time, my Sunday school teacher gave us palm fronds on Palm Sunday and there was a big hubbub about that being wrong.   Baptists tend to go overboard in their efforts to not do anything that seems like rituals or rites or being rote.  Their liturgy is not have any liturgy.

I experienced pretty much the same thing.

[Carm_88]

Ah Catholicism, I feel like I'm so removed from it. I grew up in a place here everyone was Catholic, the school was Catholic, and you were yelled at by everyone's parents if you were running wild on Good Friday or wiping off the ashes on Ash Wednesday. As for death, I think at a young age I became pretty educated on death. No, I wasn't watching people die, but I was always at my grandparents and in our small area, the favourite pass time for older men was talking at wakes. My grandfather knew everyone, I went to every wake in the area because if the car was going me and my cousins wanted to go, and we went to the wakes. We knelt, looked in the casket, said a prayer for the dead person that we probably didn't know or just knew their name. When I think about it now, it's so odd. But it was very much a social event.

[potato]

23 hours ago, Satan'sFortress said:

Do non-Catholic Christians not recognize Good Friday as a big deal?

Orthodox Christian here and I can confirm that we make a big deal out of both Good Friday and Easter.  As well as the rest of Holy Week.  I think that we have over 15 different church services between the morning of the Saturday of Lazarus and Easter Sunday.  While you aren't necessarily expected to sit around and do nothing on Good Friday (if you aren't already at church), it is advised to at least commemorate the day and be a bit more somber than usual.  I'm not sure if this is still true, but growing up my mom always said that on Good Friday in Greece, radio stations would all play intense classical music.

We don't do statues or crucifixes, but we have lots of iconography.  While there are plenty of icons of the Crucifixion, there are also other icons that focus on the cross without Jesus on it (such as the Exaltation of the Cross).  More rambling about Orthodox Holy Week under the spoiler because I love talking about it:

Spoiler

I know that at least some churches (such as the one I grew up at) have a wooden cross with a removable wooden Jesus.  He gets nailed to the cross during the service on Holy Thursday evening and taken down from it and placed in a "tomb" decorated with flowers in the afternoon on Good Friday.  The service done on the evening of Good Friday (which is one of my favorite services of the year) is supposed to be like a funeral service, complete with a procession with the decorated tomb.  Holy Saturday morning is the "First Resurrection" where we essentially commemorate Jesus giving everyone in Hell a chance to go to Heaven with Him.  It's a lot of fun and the priest goes around the church throwing bay leaves and sometimes flowers!  Here's a video of this happening at a church in Greece, where it's customary for people to make loud noises during this:

 

Holy Saturday evening is another one of my favorites- the Resurrection service.  Psalms are read from about 11 PM and then at midnight, the church goes completely dark and the priest comes out with a lit candle.  Presumably everyone has a candle and the flame gets spread to everyone in the church.  The priests (and anyone who chooses to go with them) then go outside and read the Gospel of the Resurrection.  When everyone comes back in, we do a Liturgy, so everyone ends up getting out of church after 2 AM.  It's great because you get to break the fast afterwards by eating lamb/burgers/whatever at, like, 3AM.  

TL;DR we have lots and lots of symbolism.

[sleepy_doggos]

I grew up IFB fundie/fundie-lite and Good Friday was like any other day of the week.  When I would ask why we didn't do anything to acknowledge the day, I was always told because we celebrate and honor his resurrection, not his death.  One time, my Sunday school teacher gave us palm fronds on Palm Sunday and there was a big hubbub about that being wrong.   Baptists tend to go overboard in their efforts to not do anything that seems like rituals or rites or being rote.  Their liturgy is not have any liturgy.

The neo-Calvinist church I went to before I deconverted from Christianity liked the idea of liturgy, and we occasionally recited the apostle's creed. They also did a somber Good Friday service. That was the only Protestant church I attended that ever did much for Good Friday.

[libgirl2]

I always liked Good Friday because my mom would make salmon patties.... yum. I wish she wasn't ill with dementia and could make them again. 

[sleepy_doggos]

I always liked Good Friday because my mom would make salmon patties.... yum. I wish she wasn't ill with dementia and could make them again. 

Sorry about your mom. It is so hard.

[VeryNikeSeamstress]

My mom was raised more strictly Catholic than I was, and they had fish every Friday. She HATES fish. Her aversion is so strong she can't walk past a place that sells fish without the smell making her queezy. For her parents and brother, Fridays were about fish and chips for dinner, she'd gingerly eat chips and look forward to the day being over.

Growing up Catholic, I remember being fascinated by all the gore. I still remember a girl in my first communion catechism class not wanting to 'eat bodies'. I think sometimes the gore distracted from the message. There's some terrifying stuff in the Bible, and no matter how much the New Testament would talk about the love of Jesus, I'd get caught up in all the hardcore Old Testament 'if you eye sins, tear it out' stuff.

Also, Easter week always felt like the neverending church marathon. Palm Sunday, Holy Thursday, Good Friday, Easter Sunday, plus all the masses at my Catholic school. By the end of it I was sooo done with standing and sitting. One year I visited my father's side of the family, and all the masses were in Polish.

From a very young age I decided there was no way I'd raise my kids religious. Being expected to follow along with religious traditions without questioning anything drove me nuts. At least I lived in a city and had exposure to other cultures/religions. Plus my folks were very understanding when at 16 I told them I didn't want to go to church anymore, but I'm pretty sure they saw it coming.

[Jinder Roles]

Protestant here (Baptist). I've attended nondenominational, Methodist and baptist churches in the Caribbean and Good Friday and Easter Sunday are a big deal. In fact, there is no school for Holy Week. Good Friday is very somber. Hours between 12 and 3pm are sacred. It's considered to be the holiest day of the year. 

Went to the US for college and experienced culture shock for the first time when nobody but Catholics seemed to do any kind of commemoration or service on Good Friday. 

I think the differences part doctrinal and part cultural. Idk what Jill is talking about. The death and resurrection of Jesus is literally the cornerstone of Christian doctrine (including hers). Plus, you can't have Easter Sunday without Good Friday. She's just...being Jill. 

[WiseGirl]

I'm going to hell. All this talk about Easter and the first thought that jumps into my head is chocolate bunny rabbits. All those years of Catholic school, services, etc and my take away is marshmallow eggs, Peeps, chocolate bunnies, and jelly bird eggs. 

[samurai_sarah]

13 minutes ago, WiseGirl said:

I'm going to hell. All this talk about Easter and the first thought that jumps into my head is chocolate bunny rabbits. All those years of Catholic school, services, etc and my take away is marshmallow eggs, Peeps, chocolate bunnies, and jelly bird eggs. 

I'll sit in that corner with you! Because seriously: That was the best part about it all. Oh, and Christmas markets.

[BernRul]

21 hours ago, Rachel333 said:

But it seemed like you did pretty directly compare someone being uncomfortable with countless images of someone being murdered to Western life being too sanitized when it comes to death

I didn't. I was replying to a comment about Good Friday, not crucifixes. We were talking about Jill saying Catholics celebrating Good Friday was "bad" because it just focuses on Jesus's death. I said I liked that we celebrated his death, and that in my opinion I think celebrating death isn't a bad thing.

Here's an interesting YouTube video about Pixar's Coco that talks a little bit about the philosophy of celebrating death and interacting with the dead. This is more in line with what I think. If anyone's interested I'll put it under a spoiler tag. 

Spoiler

 

12 hours ago, dharmapunk said:

I was taught Jesus died for "us"  in the generic sense. i.e. the sins of all of humanity. Believing that Jesus died for one person's specific sins is something I associate with fundies like the Duggars.

Yeah, I mostly meant that as a joke. I've heard some older Catholics joke about it as a way to explain why we supposedly feel so guilty all the time. 

[Rachel333]

12 minutes ago, BernRul said:

I didn't. I was replying to a comment about Good Friday, not crucifixes. We were talking about Jill saying Catholics celebrating Good Friday was "bad" because it just focuses on Jesus's death. I said I liked that we celebrated his death, and that in my opinion I think celebrating death isn't a bad thing.

Ah, that makes more sense.  Jill didn't actually talk about Good Friday specifically, though. The conversation started with crucifixes and then someone quoted this:

Quote

Israel and I made Easter/Resurrection Day cookies that we shared with people in the community along with a gospel message. It is common here in our area for people to focus on the suffering of Jesus and lose sight of the hope that we can have through salvation because Jesus rose again. We wanted to highlight this important reality this last week on Easter Sunday.

As someone who grew up with people who didn't think that Catholics are real Christians, when they said Catholics didn't focus enough on Jesus's resurrection I never heard them talk about Good Friday. A lot of Protestants observe it too (and even the ones who don't are aware of it and don't think it's bad to observe it) and they definitely focus quite a bit on Jesus's death and suffering (The Passion was massively popular with Protestants too!).

I definitely wouldn't expect to hear anyone talking about "celebrating" Jesus's death, though. They'll talk about appreciating his sacrifice and celebrating his resurrection, but not celebrating his death.

Again, I really don't think it's bad to focus on Jesus's death. Christians like the Duggars do too so I don't think they have much room to criticize.

[kiwi]

Wasn’t kendras baby born the same day as some Josiah/Lauren event?

[MargaretElliott]

WARNING. I've posted a pretty offensive joke below. If you don't like jokes about sex and Jesus, just keep scrolling. But it's kind of relevant and I think it's hilarious, but I'm going to hell according to most Christian doctrine, so...

Spoiler

 

[BachelorToTheRapture]

13 hours ago, dharmapunk said:

Growing up Catholic I don't recall this part at all. I was taught Jesus died for "us"  in the generic sense. i.e. the sins of all of humanity. Believing that Jesus died for one person's specific sins is something I associate with fundies like the Duggars. (plus it does not even make any sense - how could Jesus die specifically for something I would not do until more than 2000 years later)

Also I don't remember good friday as being that much of a deal. Being overly cheerful was not encouraged and we went to church like almost every day in the week before Easter. But the Resurrection was the major event. Also in my country good friday is NOT a public holiday for Catholics - but Protestants do get the day off, which is why I always assumed it was a bigger deal for them than for Catholics.

I was raised catholic and was told Jesus died for each of you, would still have died just for you, etc. The explanation is that God is outside of time and has no beginning or end, so he has always known everything that has or ever will happen. Kind of a mind loop, one of the many things about Catholicism that make less and less sense the more you learn.

Good Friday was a huge deal for my family and the more conservative Catholics, but most of the more liberal ones went to a short (30 min-1 hour, vs. 3 hours during the day) evening service. A lot of the kids would get notes to get out of school for the afternoon to go to church. Sometimes my family went to both. Fasting on that day is technically required (catholic definition is one regular meal and two small meals which combined are less than one normal meal, and only drinking water). Fasting is excused if you're sick, pregnant, or breastfeeding, but if it's a temporary reason you're strongly encouraged to make up the fasting day at another time.