Counting On season 5/6/7 Part 3 - Weddings, Babies, and Denial

[Cheetah]

Can we talk about how ridiculous Jessa and Austin were to go on about salad having to have lettuce?  I know this also came up when Joe and Kendra were on their honeymoon in Greece learning to make the salad in the first place... but have they never had potato salad?   Fruit salad?  Egg salad?  Etc.  

And on the fondue/ germ thing - a) we always use a plate and a 2nd fork.  Dip with the fondue fork, use the 2nd fork to slide the food off of the fondue fork onto the plate and then also to transfer to our mouths.  b) I'm pretty sure I've seen cold sores on some of the Duggars and I can't blame Austin for trying to avoid picking up oral herpes from the in-laws.  (And I don't really consider myself a germaphobe... like I totally sit down on public toilets without a seat cover, LOL). 

[Meggo]

1 hour ago, apandaaries said:

Once upon a time, my kid was 6 and we were in The Metropolitan Museum of Art in NYC. That place is HUGE. I don't have the best sense of direction, and we kept getting lost.  Even worse, we were lost in some section with Medieval Art depicting the crucifixion in excruciating detail and kept somehow circling back around to it even when we'd try to leave. 

My kid had heard about Jesus from one grandma, but she mainly heard about Jesus' love. All the crosses she'd seen were just crosses, no corpus. She was rather disturbed by all these paintings and kept asking questions about why they'd paint him like that. I spent a lot of time trying to figure out how to explain any of it to her in an age-appropriate fashion. I don't think I necessarily succeeded...though we did eventually find our way out!

My son is going to Catholic school (I was raised Catholic but we don't practice - it's just the school is close - and because it's Ontario - free). So he's telling me about Jesus one day. "Jesus? He died - like this" (hangs head to one side, sticks out tongue and closes his eyes.)
Right. Jesus died. 
"His friends beat him up - they made him dead."

This is a really really hard thing to explain to children. 

[SapphireSlytherin]

51 minutes ago, Cheetah said:

(And I don't really consider myself a germaphobe... like I totally sit down on public toilets without a seat cover, LOL). 

Not a germaphobe, but I always cover the seat (using TP if there are no seatcovers) and I do sit down. I don't hover and despise those who do (and spray piss all over the place in the process). I do use my foot to flush the toilet, and use a paper towel to open the bathroom door after washing my hands.

 

 

[Satan'sFortress]

Hmmm. Jill's comment about Catholics focusing on the death of Jesus is interesting to me.  I grew up Catholic, stations of the cross, crucifixes, etc.  And yes, on Good Friday, the focus was certainly on the suffering & the dying.  But on Easter, the tone shifted & we celebrated the resurrection.  Hence the white patent leather shoes, new hats & dresses.  Heck, even the priest changed clothes that day. 

Do non-Catholic Christians not recognize Good Friday as a big deal?  We were literally not allowed to play or do anything too loud or disruptive during the hours that Jesus was dying on the cross (I have no idea who figured out what those hours were--maybe my mom just made that up to get us to shut the hell up once a year?)  It seems like a respectful thing to do--to take the one day and think about how Jesus dies for their salvation?

I am an atheist now, but I can't help but be confused by her comment.  Yes, Catholics talk about the death, but that doesn't mean they don't also talk about the resurrection.

[neurogirl]

1. I had always wondered about Kendra being a pre-wedding baby. I imagine having a legitimately premature honeymoon baby must be hard to explain sometimes.

2. Lutheran here, with many Catholic friends. Our crosses are empty. We do talk about Jesus dying for our sins, but really only talk about the gory details on Good Friday/Easter. And yes, my church did have a Good Friday service that was very somber. Never knew about the hours Jesus was on the cross though.

3. The gif of J and J with the hand pumps is just....so beautiful

Spoiler

 

[nickelodeon]

I kind of dig the crucifix-with-corpus more than the clean cross, but I also like gory Baroque religious paintings. I think they're interesting.

[BernRul]

2 hours ago, Satan'sFortress said:

Hmmm. Jill's comment about Catholics focusing on the death of Jesus is interesting to me.  I grew up Catholic, stations of the cross, crucifixes, etc.  And yes, on Good Friday, the focus was certainly on the suffering & the dying.  But on Easter, the tone shifted & we celebrated the resurrection.  Hence the white patent leather shoes, new hats & dresses.  Heck, even the priest changed clothes that day. 

Do non-Catholic Christians not recognize Good Friday as a big deal?  We were literally not allowed to play or do anything too loud or disruptive during the hours that Jesus was dying on the cross (I have no idea who figured out what those hours were--maybe my mom just made that up to get us to shut the hell up once a year?)  It seems like a respectful thing to do--to take the one day and think about how Jesus dies for their salvation?

I am an atheist now, but I can't help but be confused by her comment.  Yes, Catholics talk about the death, but that doesn't mean they don't also talk about the resurrection.

I kind of like that we didn't downplay the death aspect of the story (mostly just with Good Friday and the crucifex, we don't obsess over it outside of that). Death is a natural part of life. Sometimes, I feel like modern Western life is too sanitized when it comes to death, while many other modern cultures and almost all past cultures were more open about it. Catholicism is an old religion, so I doubt people who saw public executions during the Middle Ages were squeamish about Jesus on the cross. Dark Tourist on Netflix shows a few modern cultures where death is very visible, like  Lady Muerte in Mexico and an Asian village where families cleaned their relative's mummified corpse. Personally, I think it's human nature to be fascinated by death. 

I get how it might seem weird to someone who isn't used to it, but when you grow up with it, it's completely normal. But it's probably where Catholic guilt comes from. Like, "Look how Jesus DIED for YOU specifically. Don't you feel bad?" 

Also, Good Friday hours are between 12 to 3. I don't know where that comes from, but I think it's also why 3 am is supposedly the devil's hour, because it's the inverse of when Jesus died. 

[SapphireSlytherin]

I grew up Methodist, and have never in my life heard to the Devil's Hour. Methodist Churches (like my old one) get (or got) REALLY into Holy Week, with palm fronds/processional on Palm Sunday, a Maundy Thursday tenebrae service, Good Friday stuff (I think maybe there was an all-night prayer vigil???), BIGTIME celebration on Easter.

Atheist now, and perfectly content with it.

Edit:  just asked DH about Devil's Hour. He's familiar with it (raised Church of England, went to Catholic School), but says he learned it from reading about Medieval myths and legends.

 

[AtlanticTug]

Also raised Catholic but agnostic-leaning in adulthood. While I do think there is a lot of guilt/suffering involved in Jesus' death (remember Mel Gibson's ultra-right-wing-Catholic take on the Passion of Christ), I actually don't mind having a day like Good Friday where you are meant to fast, reflect, etc. Especially given that it's followed by the highest and most joyful holiday (Easter Sunday). Like my Jewish friends and family who observe Yom Kippur, or the fasting during Ramadan - there is a purpose to that that I appreciate even from a non-religious point of view.

[BernRul]

13 minutes ago, SapphireSlytherin said:

I grew up Methodist, and have never in my life heard to the Devil's Hour. Methodist Churches (like my old one) get (or got) REALLY into Holy Week, with palm fronds/processional on Palm Sunday, a Maundy Thursday tenebrae service, Good Friday stuff (I think maybe there was an all-night prayer vigil???), BIGTIME celebration on Easter.

Atheist now, and perfectly content with it.

Edit:  just asked DH about Devil's Hour. He's familiar with it (raised Church of England, went to Catholic School), but says he learned it from reading about Medieval myths and legends.

 

I learned about it from watching excorcism movies when I was a preteen lol. 

[Rachel333]

36 minutes ago, BernRul said:

I doubt people who saw public executions during the Middle Ages were squeamish about Jesus on the cross.

Probably not, but that's not a great standard. 

I don't think it's fair either to equate not wanting to see images everywhere of someone being gruesomely murdered* to being overly uncomfortable with death. Those are different issues. I actually really dislike this argument sometimes since I see it a lot on the internet from people justifying websites where you can look at pictures and videos of dead and dying people (to be clear, no one is doing that here). I agree that death can be too sanitized but that doesn't mean we need to desensitize ourselves to people being murdered.

I also don't think it's fair to say that non-Catholics don't pay enough attention to Jesus's death (it's definitely untrue anyway) or that Catholics don't appreciate Jesus's resurrection. My point originally was that people like the Duggars might think that Catholics are macabre but there are also people who think the same about them. I think it's funny when religious people criticize other religious people for being weird but can't comprehend that their own beliefs and practices are equally weird to others.

*Seriously, if this bothers you don't look at the wikipedia page for crucifixion. There are actual pictures of people being crucified or dead after crucifixion.

[Rachel333]

Re: Devil's/Witching hour: Here is what wikipedia has to say:

Quote

In folklore, the witching hour or devil's hour is a time of night associated with supernatural events. Creatures such as witches, demons and ghosts are thought to appear and to be at their most powerful. Black magic is thought to be most effective at this time. In the Western Christian tradition, the hour between 3 and 4 a.m. was considered a period of peak supernatural activity, due to the absence of prayers in the canonical hours during this period. Women caught outside without sufficient reason during this time were sometimes executed on suspicion of witchcraft.[1] The phrase "witching hour" was first recorded in 1835.[2]

Psychological literature suggests that apparitional experiences and sensed presences are most common between the hours of 2 and 4 a.m., corresponding with a 3 a.m. peak in the amount of melatonin in the body.[3]

More recently, the hours between midnight and 2 a.m. have been considered the witching hour.[1]

The term may be used colloquially to refer to any period of bad luck, or in which something bad is seen as having a greater likelihood of occurring.

I first remember hearing the phrase when I was watching Jeopardy! as a kid.

[BernRul]

10 minutes ago, Rachel333 said:

I don't think it's fair either to equate not wanting to see images of someone being gruesomely murdered* to being overly uncomfortable with death.

I don't think it's the same thing. I was just pointing out that the majority of human cultures have been more open/visible concerning death compared to the modern Western world. To them, keeping death out of sight would be strange, while we would find a lot of those practices odd. Just a different perspective. 

Also, there's a world of difference between looking up pictures of someone who was murdered for your own curiousity and being a part of a religion or culture where images of death are visible. The latter is done with respect for either a religious figure (like Jesus on the cross) or a loved one (like cultures that have holidays for the dead). It's done out of love of some kind. Looking up pictures is violating someone else's privacy, both the family of the victim and the vitcim themselves. The very idea of doing that sickens me and I would never suggest that anyone should. 

[Daisy0322]

On devils hour being 3-4 am ... this kind of creeps me out only because my son who is 13 months now ALWAYS wakes up at 3 am almost on the dot every night and goes back to sleep between 4 & 4:15 usually. No matter what wevtry we can't get him to sleep that time of night.

[Rachel333]

1 hour ago, BernRul said:

I don't think it's the same thing. I was just pointing out that the majority of human cultures have been more open/visible concerning death compared to the modern Western world. To them, keeping death out of sight would be strange, while we would find a lot of those practices odd. Just a different perspective. 

Also, there's a world of difference between looking up pictures of someone who was murdered for your own curiousity and being a part of a religion or culture where images of death are visible. The latter is done with respect for either a religious figure (like Jesus on the cross) or a loved one (like cultures that have holidays for the dead). It's done out of love of some kind. Looking up pictures is violating someone else's privacy, both the family of the victim and the vitcim themselves. The very idea of doing that sickens me and I would never suggest that anyone should. 

I definitely wouldn't imply that you think that's okay either! Like I said, I don't think anyone here has implied that. But it seemed like you did pretty directly compare someone being uncomfortable with countless images of someone being murdered to Western life being too sanitized when it comes to death, and that's an argument I've seen over and over in different contexts and was actually expecting to see here as well as soon as the topic came up. I don't even always disagree with it!

I'm not really bothered by crucifixes or crosses either because they are so normal (and I should add that I don't think they're bad and don't have a problem with people who find meaning in them), but it is something I find odd when I really think about it. There aren't many other examples of an image of death being so widely used, rather than being used sparingly which is when I think they can be most powerful. As far as weapons, there are more examples but I do find it pretty distasteful when people have gun images everywhere, and that is even less associated with death than the cross. And I would find it downright bizarre if people started using gun images as a way to remember a leader who was murdered that way.

[Rachel333]

On a personal note, less than two weeks ago I actually saw someone die for the first time (in a medical setting, and not someone I knew). I don't know quite how I feel about it but it has made me think a lot more about death and it is something I probably am a little more sensitive about than usual right now.

I feel like in the west, particularly in the US, we tend to be both too removed from the reality of death and too desensitized to images of violence. I can't even count how many times I've watched tv and movies where people die and I think when death and violence are entertainment it's too easy to forget the reality of it.

[MargaretElliott]

I was raised Catholic (I'm now agnostic) and I can say with 100% certainty that the reason they have the Jesus in agony on the crucifix is because Catholics are goth as fuck. You drink this guy's blood and eat his flesh, passed to you by a man in opulent robes as his dying corpse gazes over you. Throw in some Latin chanting for flavor. What a bunch of edgelords.

(no disrespect meant to practicing Catholics, but you gotta admit, the church's aesthetic/vibe is pretty unique)

[QuiverFullofBooks]

11 hours ago, Buzzard said:

I’m confused at the timeline (again) because they show them making the banners and cookies at the TTH, but the TH supposedly in the middle of this is in Jessa’s kitchen.  She says they’re “doing the waiting game right now..”  but I’m guessing this was filmed either before or after

I think the TH is at Joe and Kendra’s house. It’s right next to the TTC, so they took the banners and cookies over there.

The guy in the Home Chef ad looks like my cousin. Not sure. Too bad I already deleted the episode. 

TLC definitely put every time Austin said “etticacy” in the final edit to make fun of him. He’s super uptight and Joy is out of fucks to give. Hopefully they will balance each other instead of driving each other insane.

[Rachel333]

22 minutes ago, MargaretElliott said:

Throw in some Latin chanting for flavor.

I do like the chanting! 

I actually love how old a lot of the Catholic traditions are. Back when I was trying out a bunch of churches I really wanted a more liturgical church. There was a lot I liked about Catholicism but I just couldn't justify supporting that church.

(I would have probably settled on Episcopalian, but I eventually realized that I didn't actually really believe any of it. I'm still fascinated by religion though and enjoy experiencing different traditions.)

[ItsMeY'all]

This is totally off subject but as soon as I saw it I had to come post or see if anyone else had commented. Any other Big Bang Theory watchers catch Sheldon saying something about sex being like Legos at the start of last night's episode? We are just watching it and when he said it I started cracking up and had to have my husband pause it so I could tell him the Duggar story. Totally cracked me up.

[Melissa1977]

10 hours ago, Meggo said:

My son is going to Catholic school (I was raised Catholic but we don't practice - it's just the school is close - and because it's Ontario - free). So he's telling me about Jesus one day. "Jesus? He died - like this" (hangs head to one side, sticks out tongue and closes his eyes.)
Right. Jesus died. 
"His friends beat him up - they made him dead."

This is a really really hard thing to explain to children. 

I'm not a believer but my background is catholic. My children's school is secular. Anyway, once my eldest asked me what was celebrated in Easter. I tried to explain it softly, but he cried because the sad story. 

[TheRadleyPorch]

Not Christian, but I do have protestant friends who think the crucifix with corpus is super creepy. I actually prefer the idea of it to just the plain cross, though. It seems to me like focus of the crucifix is on the sacrifice and the display of strength through allowing yourself to be overpowered, rather than doing the overpowering, while the plain cross is more about the godly might and triumph of resurrection. Put another way, maybe I perceive the crucifix as drawing more focus to the humanity of Jesus rather than the divinity of Jesus, and I can see myself connecting with that so much more than the miraculous resurrection. 

I'm also Jewish and we're all about deeply engaging with evil and thinking about human suffering, so. That might explain the above thoughts. 

[Iamtheway]

18 hours ago, BeccaGrim said:

Can I just say how tasteless it is that every time they tease another Duggar love interest (this time its John David at Josiah's wedding) they scan over Jana like it might be her. Its not Jana. We all know its not Jana.  

Imagine if they had actually been able to hide a Jana courship. Everyone thinks they are going to talk about JD and Abbie but bang!

They’re too far behind for that though. They’d have to hide her wedding and her first child too. 

[dharmapunk]

10 hours ago, BernRul said:

 

I get how it might seem weird to someone who isn't used to it, but when you grow up with it, it's completely normal. But it's probably where Catholic guilt comes from. Like, "Look how Jesus DIED for YOU specifically. Don't you feel bad?" 

 

Growing up Catholic I don't recall this part at all. I was taught Jesus died for "us"  in the generic sense. i.e. the sins of all of humanity. Believing that Jesus died for one person's specific sins is something I associate with fundies like the Duggars. (plus it does not even make any sense - how could Jesus die specifically for something I would not do until more than 2000 years later)

Also I don't remember good friday as being that much of a deal. Being overly cheerful was not encouraged and we went to church like almost every day in the week before Easter. But the Resurrection was the major event. Also in my country good friday is NOT a public holiday for Catholics - but Protestants do get the day off, which is why I always assumed it was a bigger deal for them than for Catholics.

[saywhat7]

Off current topic but just making sure I got this straight. I don't watch and just read it here. But in the past couple episodes, the couples have gone out to eat and then brought food in to eat together. The creativity is amazingly lacking.