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John David and Abbie Grace 4: Wedding Planning


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34 minutes ago, Charliemae said:

 

 

I find this conversation fascinating.  

When we are talking about jumping through "hoops" and not being specific it's easy to read into this one way or the other.  Some hoops are there to protect women, in fertility issues and most major medical decisions.   Historically women aren't given a lot of autonomy in medical choices.   I know a women who had no trouble getting her tubes tied, we suspect because she's lower income and has a few kids already.  POC also have a much easier time getting those procedures... 

I'm not sure I'm really adding anything.  This is just making my mind spin taking in all the sides. 

It is complicated, I recognize. It just steams me that many women who don't wish to have kids are expected to justify it (and convince others, such as doctors) whereas often women who decide to have kids are simply congratulated and not asked a ton of questions about motivation, ability to support a kid, etc.

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7 minutes ago, SapphireSlytherin said:

I've found the opposite. I used to work with a 24-year-old Black woman who had five kids. She couldn't find a doctor - anywhere!!! in our large city - who would tie her tubes until she was "at least 30."

My Mom, who is white, had to wait until she was 35 to have her tubes tied. She wanted it done after she had my brother. She had a boy and a girl, she was done. Nope, they made her wait because she might change her mind.

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My doctor wanted to tie my tubes when I was having #2, I was 29, and wasn't sure I was done yet.  DH had no issues when he went for a vasectomy 3 years later, but he was 42.  The doctor was great, Dr. Dick (his real name) even let me watch.

My brothers friend tried to get a vasectomy at 24 and had a hard time finding a doctor who would do it until he brought his wife and kids with him to one appointment and the doctor said "OK".  

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22 hours ago, louisa05 said:

My brother's b-day is December 15. My parents were very conscious to not let it get tied to Christmas when we were kids. On his first birthday, my paternal grandparents showed up and put his gift, wrapped in Christmas paper, under the tree while they ate and did cake. From then on, the tree never went up until after his birthday. Mr. 05 likes to put the tree up the weekend after Thanksgiving which coming from my post-12/15 childhood seems weirdly early! 

Crazy SiL was born on December 31. For several years this was a reason for everyone to be forced to spend NYE at the party she threw for herself. But now that she is homeless for legal purposes (but not really), she stopped throwing them. 

This is my daughter's birthday, and we definitely separate it.

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4 hours ago, scoutsadie said:

My reasons, my business - why should I have to justify my choice to be sterilized when no one is asked to justify wanting help/surgery to have kids?  Think about this statement above from the other side:

"If a woman has a baby the decision is made and when you experience a change of heart [about being a parent] you are screwed."

Yet society/docs go along with breeding. Why should my choice - which has fewer consequences for the world - be challenged and/or prevented?

I guess my mindset is more in the direction that we are talking about an operation without any medically need. And I think every surgery without a medically need should be questioned before and every party (patient and doctor) should be absolutely sure that this is thought through well. This should be the rule for men and women by the way. This doesn’t mean that it shouldn’t be possible to have it done or that you should have to fight for years.

@bal maiden I admit, I haven’t thought of something like that. Maybe because I am not aware of any relationship in my social bubble where this happens (of course I cannot be a 100% sure) or because no one I talk more to (male or female) has ever given me the impression that this is still an acceptable behaviour. This sounds a lot like something from the 60s. I might be very sheltered and naive about that, and on a rational level I know this still happens.

My very subjective experience: Most guys I met were actually over careful when you mentioned that you messed up taking your pill and there might be a chance of conceiving. This was often the ultimate contraception as they often opted for rather having no sex at all.

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1 hour ago, SapphireSlytherin said:

I've found the opposite. I used to work with a 24-year-old Black woman who had five kids. She couldn't find a doctor - anywhere!!! in our large city - who would tie her tubes until she was "at least 30."

My doctor and nurses tried to talk me out of it.I was also,24.Two local hospital,at the time,not mine,said the woman had to be 25.

 

1 hour ago, Carm_88 said:

My Mom, who is white, had to wait until she was 35 to have her tubes tied. She wanted it done after she had my brother. She had a boy and a girl, she was done. Nope, they made her wait because she might change her mind.

The operating room was busy the afternoon,I had my third son.They made me wait until the next morning,and said "I still had time to change my mind".

 

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To everyone complaining about sharing a birthday... try being a twin ? Not just talking about Jana and JD either, I've shared my birthday with my twin my entire life. I don'y know anything else. I actually skipped my own sweet sixteen and she had that party all to herself (I hid in the bathroom the whole time because I was having a panic attack because I hate being the center of attention... wow, that's actually really sad now that I write it out...)

I also think women should be able to do whatever they want to with their own bodies. I remember a thread drift from a while back where a woman's husband was required to sign a document to get her tubes tied... the woman understood it as "both partners are aware of and consent to this procedure" but it just left a foul taste in my mouth. Like, he was in charge of her reproductive decisions. Which, even if you're married, you're still an adult in control of your own bodily autonomy... not that any Duggar would ever understand bodily autonomy...

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One of my college roommates had to wait until she was 23 to get her tubes tied. She’d been trying since she turned 18. With her family medical history she didn’t want to risk biological kids. Her dad committed suicide after years of depression and her mom had been institutionalized at least twice for schizophrenia. She couldn’t take hormonal contraceptives without messing up her own mental health. She always said if she wanted kids she would adopt but it took five years to find a doctor who would perform the surgery.

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35 minutes ago, MargaretElliott said:

To everyone complaining about sharing a birthday... try being a twin ? Not just talking about Jana and JD either, I've shared my birthday with my twin my entire life. I don'y know anything else. I actually skipped my own sweet sixteen and she had that party all to herself (I hid in the bathroom the whole time because I was having a panic attack because I hate being the center of attention... wow, that's actually really sad now that I write it out...)

Aww, sorry to hear that.

On a not quite related note, my daughter was friends with triplets in elementary school that had joint parties for a few years but then eventually they had 2 parties - the sole daughter got her own party and then the 2 boys shared the other.  Hopefully the boys liked the same themes and activities at that age (like 4th/5th grade).  

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The only person I know who had trouble getting sterilization surgery was my Dad, but it was in the 60’s, and he was very young - early twenties. He had to get my mom’s permission ( she was on the pill and it was horrific for her ) , and still had to wait a long time. He also later regretted getting it when his next partner wanted kids. 

I’d say over half the people in my age group that I know got a tubal ligation or vasectomy in their late 20’s or early 30’s when they had completed their families. Most of the rest ended up having another child later on - generally with another partner. In my area, in the 90s, you had to sign a consent 30 days before the surgery. That seems reasonable. I would maybe stretch it to 90 days though, especially if there’s not a compelling physical reason.

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I had my third in a Catholic hospital (in 2007), so I couldn't get my tubes tied there. I got an IUD instead, and got my tubes tied 9 years later. I wish I had done it sooner.

I'm the worst for kids birthday parties. My younger two are born in August and November. I generally pick a day in late September and hold their parties together.

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To give a different perspective on sharing birthdays, I'm a triplet and my sisters and I have always loved sharing ours! It makes the day three times as fun and three times as special, plus we get the joy of giving presents as well as receiving them (we love getting presents for each other). In fact, I've always felt a little sorry for non-multiples having to have birthdays to themselves, and I was incredulous the first time someone told me they'd hate to share their birthday!

We always had our own birthday cake each as children, and after the age of 5 we always had separate birthday parties. I think our parents did a great job ensuring that our birthday had individual elements as well as shared.

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I grew up with a large, very close knit family so between all the aunt, uncles, cousins, etc... There was always a birthday being celebrated. My aunt's birthday was the day before mine, my son's is 2 days after mine (he was due on my birthday) and we had 6 other family birthdays that month. We always had our own cake at home with family and sometimes a party with friends. We also usually celebrated with the whole family once a month or so, usually on whatever Holiday was closest. So my Nov. birthday was celebrated on Thanksgiving and my sister's December birthday celebrated on Christmas and my other sister's April birthday was celebrated on Easter some years. I don't remember it ever being an issue for anyone, it was just an easy time to do it since we were already together. 

My sister's birthday is Dec. 20th and our tree always went up the day after Thanksgiving. I think, for our family anyway, the tree was treated more as a seasonal decoration. I mean, we had fall decor up for my birthday and spring (plus sometimes Easter) stuff up for my other sisters birthday and the tree/Christmas decorations weren't seen any differently. It doesn't mean that my sister wasn't celebrated on her birthday or her birthday was ignored. She always had birthday wrapping paper and birthday balloons just like the rest of us did. I know she did get some combined gifts, but not until she was older and it was usually a way to get a bigger, more expensive gift and it was her choice. Even now, my early Jan.  birthday daughter and mid Nov. birthday son usually choose to combine their birthday and Christmas gifts to get one big gift from us. In fact my oldest daughter who will be 15 her next birthday just told me this morning that we should combine this years Birthday and Christmas gifts with next years and get her a car. ?

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@MargaretElliott that might have been me. A few years ago in..yup..Arkansas. I was over 35 with 3 kids , have a clotting disorder and a history of miscarriages and preemies, and had just had an incomplete miscarriage that led to an emergency D&C due to hemorrhaging. SUPER high risk. Hubby, even though we were on bad terms and separated at the time, had to essentially sign a permission slip allowing me to have a tubal. It made me so mad.

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I had a tubal at 28 in Arkansas. Then-hubby did NOT have to sign any forms. I was dealing with a third miscarriage in two years and I.was.done. with trying to have another baby. 

Divorced Hubby1, was single a few years. Met DH, married him - he was fully aware I couldn't have kids and was OK with it. I had about a week's worth of regret/sorrow over not being able to have a baby with him, but then he put it in perspective:  I'd be "starting over" with a newborn and an 8-year-old. Reality? Right now we'd still have a FUCKING TEENAGER IN THIS HOUSE so no-thank-you-very-much.

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I had my second in a Catholic hospital at 35. Repeat c section. I asked them to the my tubes while they were in there, and they did. 1982. Don't know if Mr. Wolf had to sign anything. He doesn't remember, either.

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I had 3 kids by age 24, asked for a tubal (1989) and aside from being asked a few questions about regrets later, had it done the day after baby 3 was born.

The thought of possibly having my (now ex-) spouse having to approve my personal decision at the time makes me angry. So happy that was not the case.

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I had to sign when the X had a vasectomy in 1991. I kept hoping the doctor would slip and cut his dick off. The wild part was that when I had my hysterectomy later that year, he didn't have to sign anything. 

Kids - I'm thankful for mine, but the truth of the matter is that I shouldn't have had kids. In hindsight, as much as I love them, I'm just not really suited to that. I suck at responsibility, routine and adulting. The upside is that my last kid moved out when I was in my early 40's and I've gotten to live the non-mom life for awhile now. I realize that I'm just too damaged to have been the kind of mom I should have been to my kids. Fortunately, we've all reached an understanding about it and have been able to move forward with love and respect. I sucked as their mother, but damn, they're some fucking smart, good looking, funny, loving kids. 

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5 minutes ago, feministxtian said:

I kept hoping the doctor would slip and cut his dick off.

Is it ok to laugh at this and nod my head in agreement?

 

6 minutes ago, feministxtian said:

I realize that I'm just too damaged to have been the kind of mom I should have been to my kids.

I wish I had been a better mom, too.  I just didn't have the ability or skills at the time.  We are all on good ground now, but WOW I wish someone could have coached me along the way.

And you ROCK, @feministxtian:)

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11 hours ago, nvmbr02 said:

In fact my oldest daughter who will be 15 her next birthday just told me this morning that we should combine this years Birthday and Christmas gifts with next years and get her a car. ?

Smart kid! So what kind of car would that get her?

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I’m not super familiar with Krista. But her anti abortion stance, no matter how she dresses it up as - the choice to oppose etc. is incredibly damaging to women, already struggling to retain or reinstate safe abortion care in the US. She’s marching for the right to oppose abortion. Basically the right to restrict fundamental human rights and women’s healthcare. She’s dangerous 

Ireland is currently legislating for abortion care, which will be FREE we just learned this week. And this is what the antis are expecting to happen...

 

http://waterfordwhispersnews.com/2017/12/13/ireland-set-to-open-first-industrial-abortion-factory-in-coming-days/

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56 minutes ago, Iamtheway said:

Smart kid! So what kind of car would that get her?

 

We were thinking a hot wheel, but I like the barbie jeep idea! 

In reality, we will likely HELP her buy a car. She has been babysitting up a storm and saving all her Christmas and Birthday money so hopefully she'll have a decent amount saved by then and we plan on helping her out. She doesn't know that yet though. 

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9 hours ago, MarblesMom said:

Is it ok to laugh at this and nod my head in agreement?

If you knew my X you would! He had a lot of that patriarchal bullshit going on. 

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18 hours ago, just_ordinary said:

I guess my mindset is more in the direction that we are talking about an operation without any medically need.

Actually that's not really true in many cases. And keep in mind that you can see it as a prophylactic surgery these days since the new research indicates that about 25% of ovarian cancers originate in the tubes. Since ovarian cancer has a very high mortality rate, the tubes are no longer tied but are typically removed entirely.

I had mine removed with my last c-section. After 6 miscarriages and two horrific pregnancies it was time to recognize and accept that my body wasn't meant to do this and that during any other time (i.e. when there wasn't IVF, when I wouldn't have access to the best MFMs and ongoing monitoring, daily heparin injections, insulin, etc) I wouldn't have been able to have kids in the first place. I would get pregnant super easily (naturally and with every single IVF transfer I ever did) and then have horrible and often late miscarriages. So yeah, for me it really was a medical need. But also, I didn't want more children and there is no need to have to explain the entire backstory to anyone. By the way, nobody who was medically attending to me ever asked my husband for his opinion on this as it should be.

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