Joy and Austin 24

[KelseyAnn]

3 hours ago, freethemall said:

Interesting, I'm reading Educated by Tara Westover right now and it has the same criticisms about her exaggerating parts of her story, the abuse and many accidents. Her parents have denied it. But then, wouldn't any neglectful, abusive parent deny it?

I know my mom for sure still denies every last thing that ever happened - so yeah. 

And about the claims of abused kids exaggerating - I'm no sure I'm buying into that. I'm not saying it doesn't happened, it probably does, but why would there be any need to exaggerate? The stuff that happened to abused kids is horrible enough without exaggeration. 

[HarleyQuinn]

I guess to me Pelzer's book seems exaggerated for sensational reasons, they're to the point where there's no way a young child would survive everything he says happened to him. Not to mention in his later books he adds on more abuse and his stories slightly change. It's just fishy. I don't deny there was any abuse, but I question the extent of it in his case. 

And the kicker, his footnotes say this is the "3rd worst abuse case in California." I doubt the government is out there officially ranking abuse cases. 

[katilac]

2 hours ago, KelseyAnn said:

but why would there be any need to exaggerate?  

 

To sell more books? 

There's no reason to exaggerate child abuse in general. Parents have done the most heinous things possible to children, I do not doubt that at all. But people who are selling memoirs have a vested interest in making the stories as vivid and memorable as possible, so I do think some specific people do exaggerate. They are crafting a narrative, trying to tell a coherent and intriguing story, and that goal is often at odds with the abilities of actual human memory. 

With any type of autobiography, I am immediately suspicious of writers who claim to remember large swaths of many conversations and highly specific details of numerous situations. If you want to get that specific, it's more honest to write a novel inspired by your life. 

Humans are extremely susceptible to false memories even if they don't have a motive. Every family has at least one story that everyone remembers vividly . . . but differently! 

8 minutes ago, HarleyQuinn said:

 And the kicker, his footnotes say this is the "3rd worst abuse case in California." I doubt the government is out there officially ranking abuse cases. 

 

Right? I feel guilty for laughing at that, but I can't help picturing the judges of America's Got Talent arguing about which abuse case should make it to the semi-finals. 

[Firebird]

So on the topic of exaggerated abuse or not, my sister is having a lot of "suppressed memories" resurface. I'm not sure whether or not to believe her. My parents did some pretty shitty things and I don't talk to them anyways based on  other events, so I don't worry about it too much, but I don't know what to believe or not to believe. Some of her memories seem very strange and like she is grasping at straws to make the abuse seem worse and therefore more "valid."

You get a lot more validation for the abuse if you tell people I was raped with a curling iron (that didn't happen to me just an example) vs saying I was brought up to be responsible for my parents emotions and actions, and if they did something wrong to me it was my fault because I wasn't perfect and made them do it. People don't tend to understand the latter and you are just supposed to "suck it up buttercup" and move on. I find myself sometimes looking for the worst story I can find from my childhood so that people understand why I have bad days. I'm tired of being judged for not being perfect.

[Rachel333]

That reminds me of this article about what false rape accusations (which are rare) look like and this article by the same author about why Dr. Christine Blasey Ford's accusation about Kavanaugh does not at all resemble a false allegation. Basically, people who make up rape allegations altogether make their stories as lurid and dramatic as possible and never make up stories like Dr. Ford's where there is some room for people to claim it wasn't that bad or wasn't really rape, and which sounds like something that (sadly) happens all the time.

[cascarones]

It's an extremely touchy topic and my response will always be first and foremost to believe the victim. 

There are emotional vampires, FJ has had a fair share of them where the story just gets increasingly and rapidly more detailed and horrible in subsequent posts. I've thankfully only been involved in one derailment. At the end of the day, they need help if it's true or fiction.

If what I've read in the articles and snippets happened to him, I hope he got help, if it didn't and it's for book sales, I still hope he's addressing his issues.

[Hisey]

I've read Pelzer's books. I don't think he exaggerated. I do wonder why people need to *think* he exaggerated. Is it too hard to take it at face value? The argument about money falls short. You could say the same thing about all nonfiction. Are you arguing all nonfiction is exaggerated, or only something that's really, really hard to accept, like child abuse?

I also wondered about that "third worst" thing. Clearly, it was not the third worst case of child abuse in California--children have died at the hands of their parents, and David is alive today. I think that this must have been something he overheard someone say when he was rescued from his mom--maybe a police officer or social worker. I think David has got to be somewhat damaged by what happened to him--who wouldn't be--and he overheard that phrase and it stuck with him. 

If the Turpin's abuse can happen, then David's abuse can happen. As a social worker, I saw many thing worse than both David and the Turpins. So I don't think either one exaggerated. I think it's just hard to hear.

[HarleyQuinn]

1 hour ago, Hisey said:

I've read Pelzer's books. I don't think he exaggerated. I do wonder why people need to *think* he exaggerated. Is it too hard to take it at face value? The argument about money falls short. You could say the same thing about all nonfiction. Are you arguing all nonfiction is exaggerated, or only something that's really, really hard to accept, like child abuse?

I also wondered about that "third worst" thing. Clearly, it was not the third worst case of child abuse in California--children have died at the hands of their parents, and David is alive today. I think that this must have been something he overheard someone say when he was rescued from his mom--maybe a police officer or social worker. I think David has got to be somewhat damaged by what happened to him--who wouldn't be--and he overheard that phrase and it stuck with him. 

If the Turpin's abuse can happen, then David's abuse can happen. As a social worker, I saw many thing worse than both David and the Turpins. So I don't think either one exaggerated. I think it's just hard to hear.

 I took everything at face value and believed him when I first read it. Then I took science classes and realized that a lot of what he said (drinking ammonia/bleach, lying in freezing water for hours, being locked in a room with an ammonia bucket constantly, and treating a stab wound to the stomach on his own were just too far fetched.

I'm not saying he was never abused, but it's hard to believe he suffered all those things and survived. The fact that he does things like introduce himself as a "pulizer price nominee" when that's not true doesn't help either. I just think he exaggerated to write a compelling book.

[BernRul]

13 hours ago, freethemall said:

Interesting, I'm reading Educated by Tara Westover right now and it has the same criticisms about her exaggerating parts of her story, the abuse and many accidents. Her parents have denied it. But then, wouldn't any neglectful, abusive parent deny it?

I just read Educated recently. The family's obsessions with unsafe homebirths and medical care, and the lack of actual teaching in their homeschooling (including one daughter who said she will go on to teach her own children) made me think of FJ. 

IMO, a lot of what she described fits with what we already know about extremist fundies. The only thing I could see being exaggerated are the injuries, but she herself even notes that she remembers certian things differently from her siblings, so she can't say for sure how it actually went down. 

Like you said, her parents were neglectful and they proteced an abusive older brother (damn they really are like the Duggars), so of course they would deny it. 

[freethemall]

9 hours ago, BernRul said:

I just read Educated recently. The family's obsessions with unsafe homebirths and medical care, and the lack of actual teaching in their homeschooling (including one daughter who said she will go on to teach her own children) made me think of FJ. 

IMO, a lot of what she described fits with what we already know about extremist fundies. The only thing I could see being exaggerated are the injuries, but she herself even notes that she remembers certian things differently from her siblings, so she can't say for sure how it actually went down. 

Like you said, her parents were neglectful and they proteced an abusive older brother (damn they really are like the Duggars), so of course they would deny it. 

I agree, I see a lot of similarities with the Duggars. 

The parents have argued that if the kids education was so bad, how did 3 of them get PhDs. 

I also reject the author writing her family's beliefs are not to blame for their practices. The beliefs are the root of their extremism, their patriarchy, their judgement of other "gentiles" not being holy enough, her brother's abuse of her (calling her a whore), their trust in God instead of man (especially with medical matters), and the idea of Mormon men having a priesthood which elevates them to a status that for certain unhealthy personalities can be dangerous. 

[Glasgowghirl]

I think some things in Peltzer's book were exaggerated, may not intentionally. Some of his memories could be hazy and his could have made him believe he was drinking amonia. He definitely seems to enjoy the fame the book brought and that doesn't help him. 

I just started reading a book by the daughter of serial killers Fred and Rose West. She seems conflicted in her feelings of both of them, she hates the abuse she suffered at their hands and what they done to those girl's, including her sister and step sister but she also speaks of happy memories of them. She kept in contact with her mum for years after her conviction hoping she would get answers but she didn't and cut contact. 

Abuse cases are hard because victims need to be taken seriously, while making sure the accused is seen as innocent before convicted.

 

[AliceInFundyland]

@Glasgowghirl There’s a 3 part ITV series called Appropriate Adult. It’s a few years old. I found it on Amazon Prime in the US. It stars Emily Watson and Dominic West as Fred West. It was about that case. Very fascinating stuff. She’s the person who serves as his advocate.

[Glasgowghirl]

18 minutes ago, AliceInFundyland said:

@Glasgowghirl There’s a 3 part ITV series called Appropriate Adult. It’s a few years old. I found it on Amazon Prime in the US. It stars Emily Watson and Dominic West as Fred West. It was about that case. Very fascinating stuff. She’s the person who serves as his advocate.

I watched it, I could not do that job, fair play to those who do.

[AliceInFundyland]

I couldn’t either. But, the show (acting) made a fairly compelling arguement for how it happened. She felt obligated by her duty and somewhat taken by his charms.

[BernRul]

4 hours ago, freethemall said:

 

I also reject the author writing her family's beliefs are not to blame for their practices. The beliefs are the root of their extremism, their patriarchy, their judgement of other "gentiles" not being holy enough, her brother's abuse of her (calling her a whore), their trust in God instead of man (especially with medical matters), and the idea of Mormon men having a priesthood which elevates them to a status that for certain unhealthy personalities can be dangerous. 

Yeah, same. I understand why she wanted to downplay that, but I can't help feeling that if the family wasn't so religious, than they never would have become so extreme. 

[xenobia]

On 9/21/2018 at 4:53 PM, ati_escapee said:

That is so terrible. All of the kidults need to understand that the TLC money won't last forever. I guess they think God will provide. ???

Well, to be fair, I think that Austins house flipping business makes him and Joy one of the few couples who doesn't actually depend totally on TLC/JB's money. 

[melon]

5 hours ago, Glasgowghirl said:

I think some things in Peltzer's book were exaggerated, may not intentionally. Some of his memories could be hazy and his could have made him believe he was drinking amonia. He definitely seems to enjoy the fame the book brought and that doesn't help him. 

I just started reading a book by the daughter of serial killers Fred and Rose West. She seems conflicted in her feelings of both of them, she hates the abuse she suffered at their hands and what they done to those girl's, including her sister and step sister but she also speaks of happy memories of them. She kept in contact with her mum for years after her conviction hoping she would get answers but she didn't and cut contact. 

Abuse cases are hard because victims need to be taken seriously, while making sure the accused is seen as innocent before convicted.

 

Can I ask the title of the book by Fred and Rose West's daughter?

[Glasgowghirl]

7 minutes ago, melon said:

Can I ask the title of the book by Fred and Rose West's daughter?

Love as always, Mum by Mae West. It's on Google play.

[Firebird]

I read a wikipedia article on Fred and Rose West...I am stunned. That is horrific.

[allthegoodnamesrgone]

Since the child can't be any cuter. 

 

[Fjrocks]

This video popped up in my feed, I apologize if this has already been discussed but this line by Joy really struck me starting about 52 seconds in.    

 

Joy describes motherhood    

 

       "Being a mom is in a lot ways is easier then I thought,  and in a lot of ways harder then I thought.  I knew that my mom had gone through a lot with all of us kids, but like, I didn't think it was that hard because I had always taken care of kids myself, but it's given me a whole new appreciation for moms out there that have kids."

     This is mostly the expected story line, ie Joy and Austin fumble through parenthood but I am really struck by the pieces I highlighted.  Perhaps placing things in the past, it dismisses the value of the thought she carried for some time, but it does appear that Joy at some level, recognized herself, and her sisters were carrying the significant part of the load.  

    While I find suggesting motherhood is harder then she expected to be understandable and unremarkable, practically part of her "script" for this storyline, how remarkable it is that in some ways she has found it EASIER, perhaps because she is now an adult, perhaps, because she has one child, not a team, but wow.   I am actually surprised she would vocalize it this directly. 

[artdecades]

She comes off as so monotone and like, checking off the boxes. He is so great, he is a giving husband, being a mom is hard, etc. Nothing she said has anything personal or specific to her and austin.

[HarleyQuinn]

It's like someone wrote a script for her to recite ahead of time and she forgot half of it as she started speaking. That's how Joy comes off to me. 

[SapphireSlytherin]

True.

Producer:  "Is being a mom easier or harder than you thought it would be? Please restate the question when you answer." 

Joy:  blah blah blah blah............

Producer:  "Take 27, and this time try to be a little more animated." 

 

 

[NoKidsAndCounting]

Maybe Joy is going through some depression after having Gideon?  Or she's just tired of the cameras?  Either way, I feel a little badly for her.  Austin seems controlling and kept saying marriage was hard and how he understands the divorce rate.  Could he have been expecting that Joy would just agree with everything and smile, and she dares to have opinions?