Joy and Austin 24

[SapphireSlytherin]

3 minutes ago, Rachel333 said:

really controversial topic has come up

Or wedding reception food.

[SassyPants]

2 hours ago, SapphireSlytherin said:

Sadly, I'm afraid everyone is way OVERestimating the youth vote in this year's election. I think the media is playing up the (relatively) few "youth" voters but what you're not seeing is the young 'uns avoiding voting, opting out of playing the political game, or--here's the kicker--voting a conservative ballot.

I see many "youth" voters who are staunchly conservative, and they're from all backgrounds, urban/rural, brown/white/black/purple/green/whatever, and mostly quiet -- ESPECIALLY on social media -- about their leanings because of fear of reprisal from friends/family/employers.

Links that show I'm not the only one who sees this:

http://www.pewinternet.org/2012/03/12/main-findings-10/

https://www.dailysignal.com/2018/05/01/the-left-is-merciless-at-keeping-conservatives-in-the-closet/

https://www.lifesitenews.com/blogs/the-21st-century-closet-why-i-hide-my-conservative-beliefs-from-my-friends

I was referring to the last election-

Lots of people, even middle aged folks, skip the midterms.

[Mama Mia]

1 hour ago, SapphireSlytherin said:

@Rachel333  - I agree with the differences in the way liberals and conservatives handle different viewpoints. I've found - through observation of my friends on FB, that liberals tend only to view news/blogs/sites that 100% lean liberal, and that conservatives tend only to view news/blogs/sites that 100% lean conservative.

Then there are people (like me) who carefully navigate through all the options, all the news, all the blogs, all the information out there to form their own opinions. If these options are not explored, then it increases the separation of both sides, because neither side fully understands what the other is seeing/reading/adopting.

Does this make sense? I'm trying to type hurriedly as my lunch hour is up and I need to get back to work.

This has become so hard to do! With the pressure of a zillion websites competing for attention for the 30 nanoseconds before the next big ‘ thing’ , there is just an infinite galaxy of dramatic hyperbole, all shared between sites without any digging into whether things are even accurate. 

An example was Judicial Watch came out with a big “expose” about how voter fraud was rampant in California because a bunch of counties had tons more registered voters than were possible given the population. All the right wing sites spun it that all the “illegals” were voting. The main media pointed out that registrations are often higher because people move-and named a slew of Trump family and supporters who were registered in more than one state. And so on.

What NO ONE did - look at the actual number of registered voters in each county, from the Secretary or State website, and compare it with the number of persons over 18 in each county, from the census. I did that. And accounted for roughly 20-25% of those being ineligible ( not a citizen, currently incarcerated for a felony, etc. ) - EVERY county came out with a registration rate far, far under the estimated eligible population. Not one had the headline grabbing result  - More voters than people !!!! Eleventy!!!!! 

So that entire big breaking “news” was just absolute crap. And everyone, of every persuasion, just ran with it, spun it to their purposes, and didn’t bother to do a 5 minute search. Amazing. Appalling, 

[MoonFace]

7 hours ago, KeshetParparNesicha said:

I dunno, I think "this country" would vote for a person of color, female or otherwise, as long as they said the right things. Look at Nikki Haley.

I don't care what color a candidate is or what sex.   What annoyed me during the last couple elections was that people were voting for a certain color or sex  -BECAUSE of the color or sex.  

I'm tired of candidates finger pointing and name calling.   Just stick to what YOU are trying to do.   Don't tell me you WILL do this or that - because you can't do most of what you say without the support of Congress.   You can say that you will TRY, with the support of who sits in office. 

And we need term limits!

 

[SapphireSlytherin]

25 minutes ago, MoonFace said:

And we need term limits!

I agree, but politicians will tell you we already have "term limits," (meaning - each term is 2/4/6 years) and that it's up to voters to vote out those who've been in office too long.

[StraightOuttaArkansas]

17 hours ago, Mama Mia said:

snip

An example was Judicial Watch came out with a big “expose” about how voter fraud was rampant in California because a bunch of counties had tons more registered voters than were possible given the population. All the right wing sites spun it that all the “illegals” were voting. The main media pointed out that registrations are often higher because people move-and named a slew of Trump family and supporters who were registered in more than one state. And so on.

snip

Bolding mine. This exactly. There was a FB fake new thing going around about AR that they were unregistering voters, but I was sucked in and called to check on mine. They directed me to the website for future reference and to pass on to my friends and family because they were being overrun with these calls. I checked on all my family, but then decide "oh let me go check on my dad" (who I do not talk to or like in the slightest). He is a HUGE trump supporter and get this for all his complaining about illegals being registered, he was registered twice. Under two different names and addresses (he moved 6 months or so before I was checking on this). I called and had his old voter registrations removed (YES I was 100% sure it was him otherwise I would not have don that, also it was really that easy, so pay attentions and check your registrations). The lady in the office said that had tons of people who never call to remove their old registrations. I don't understand how we have not come up with a better system for that. My dad, had he chose to, could have actually voted at two separate polling places the was he had this set up. To clarify: I don't think people are doing that, but it begs the question if the GOP is so hard up on the registration of legal voters then why are they not getting a more efficient system in place? Why are they not pushing for FREE ID cards for everyone and a registration system like Germany has (you have to go to the city hall and register your address and info every time you move). I get the impression they want to complain and not fix the problem (cause ya'll, my dad voting twice and people like him would be an actual problem to worry about).

[SapphireSlytherin]

1 hour ago, StraightOuttaArkansas said:

Why are they not pushing for FREE ID cards for everyone and a registration system like Germany has (you have to go to the city hall and register your address and info every time you move).

Can you IMAGINE trying to enforce this seemingly "unimportant" law? People can't be bothered to keep their driver's licenses current, pay their property taxes, register/renew their automobile plates, etc.

[laPapessaGiovanna]

40 minutes ago, SapphireSlytherin said:

Can you IMAGINE trying to enforce this seemingly "unimportant" law? People can't be bothered to keep their driver's licenses current, pay their property taxes, register/renew their automobile plates, etc.

Can you imagine if you ONLY have to notify your new local council of your move then they automatically provide to keep current all your public administration related papers and mail you everything? Namely they  update your ID, your voting documents, your family doctor, your arms carrying permit, your hunting license and your driving license. And you don't need to fear for your birth certificate getting lost, nor of losing any of you papers because if it happens you just have to notify the LEOs that you lost it (so they can make sure to void the lost documents in case anyone is trying to steal your identity) and go to your local council to have brand new papers at the hefty price of 5€.

Sorry but I really really don't understand how some Americans can justify your inefficient system.

[SapphireSlytherin]

Pretty sure I wasn't trying to justify the system...

[samurai_sarah]

1 minute ago, laPapessaGiovanna said:

Can you imagine if you ONLY have to notify your new local council of your move then they automatically provide to keep current all your public administration related papers and mail you everything? Namely they  update your ID, your voting documents, your family doctor, your arms carrying permit, your hunting license and your driving license. And you don't need to fear for your birth certificate getting lost, nor of losing any of you papers because if it happens you just have to notify the LEOs that you lost it (so they can make sure to void the lost documents in case anyone is trying to steal your identity) and go to your local council to have brand new papers at the hefty price of 5€.

Sorry but I really really don't understand how some Americans can justify your inefficient system.

Crazy talk! Oh wait...that's the way things work in Italy and Germany (don't know about other EU countries). But you lot only have to pay 5 Euros? I'm so jealous.

2 minutes ago, SapphireSlytherin said:

Pretty sure I wasn't trying to justify the system...

I don't think you were. It's a different system.

[laPapessaGiovanna]

6 minutes ago, SapphireSlytherin said:

Pretty sure I wasn't trying to justify the system...

I don't think you were, but I have read many justifications elsewhere. My point replying to you was more on the lines that nobody enforces our system, it's not mandatory. It's just that if you want ID (and you want, because you can't do anything without) that's the only way. It's surprisingly efficient since it's in the best interest of virtually everybody and actually very easy.

 

10 minutes ago, samurai_sarah said:

But you lot only have to pay 5 Euros? I'm so jealous.

And till a few years ago it was completely FREE, but you know people were a bit to carefree in handling their documents and forgetting in which drawer/pocket they left them. Sometimes we are even more socialist than you ?

[HerNameIsBuffy]

1 hour ago, SapphireSlytherin said:

People can't be bothered to keep their driver's licenses current, pay their property taxes, register/renew their automobile plates, etc.

Most people can and do.  Those who don't suffer the consequences when they are discovered.  

[SapphireSlytherin]

21 minutes ago, HerNameIsBuffy said:

Most people can and do.  Those who don't suffer the consequences when they are discovered.  

Not here. Expired tags (which equals unpaid property taxes and unpaid vehicle registration fees) are not a priority for local police. They will not pull over a car with expired tags (or expired temp tags) unless they egregiously break the law - and sometimes they don't even pull over cars for speeding/running red lights/etc. It's pretty much lawless here. Fun times.

 

[HereticHick]

1 hour ago, laPapessaGiovanna said:

 

Sorry but I really really don't understand how some Americans can justify your inefficient system.

America is a federal system. I understand that a lot of Europeans have a hard time understanding that in so many ways we are a union of 50 states + some territories. A lot of countries have a much more centralized government than the US.

Is it the most efficient system of government? No. But efficiency is not the goal.

[JillyO]

44 minutes ago, laPapessaGiovanna said:

I don't think you were, but I have read many justifications elsewhere. My point replying to you was more on the lines that nobody enforces our system, it's not mandatory. It's just that if you want ID (and you want, because you can't do anything without) that's the only way. It's surprisingly efficient since it's in the best interest of virtually everybody and actually very easy.

In Germany it IS mandatory to register at your current address (within 10 days after a move, I think?), although usually you don't get anything more than a stern talking-to if you do it late. I guess you can be fined for that, although I don't know of anyone who ever has been.

But yeah, why WOULDN'T you register? It makes everything easier. Certainly a lot easier that all the hoops you have to jump through in the US to prove your identity or residence sometimes. We just go to city hall for any ID needs we may have (ID card, driver's license, passport, new birth certificate, vehicle registration, etc.) and they have all of our records, no matter how often we've moved. Which also means they send us our voting documents without prompting, since they KNOW where we currently live (and that we aren't also registered anywhere else).

My assumption is that the US doesn't have this system because FREEDOM. Technically you can be completely "off the grid" and nobody will know where you are. Americans can be incredibly touchy on this subject even if it's not at all applicable to the vaaast majority of people, who have driver's licenses, and vehicles registered in their name, and credit cards, and passports, and are registered to vote, ... So the government knows where to find them after all.

[just_ordinary]

1 hour ago, HereticHick said:

America is a federal system. I understand that a lot of Europeans have a hard time understanding that in so many ways we are a union of 50 states + some territories. A lot of countries have a much more centralized government than the US.

Is it the most efficient system of government? No. But efficiency is not the goal.

Just for clarification: A lot of European nations are also federally organised. The degree of it varies but it’s is not as if we have one centralised government calling all the shots. Historically many European nations as we know them now grew from many little territories and you can still see this. Separation ideas come up time and time again, in some countries you have more than one language and regional governments with their own decision making autonomy (about certain areas). Surely compared to the sheer number of US states it’s much smaller but the general problems are the same. 

And to clarify further: the ID in Germany doesn’t come free. It costs between 20/30€, duration 6/10 years. It is mandatory to have an ID but they still make you pay for it. A passport is more expensive. 

And while things are apparently way easier than in the US it sometimes is a pain in the ass- especially when you apply for new documents. One of your birth certificates for example is always with the town you were born in. If you need it somewhere else and lost your own copy you need to go and get a new copy. It’s not as if they can just share the information (for security reasons I think) between offices. And some offices really take their time. German bureaucracy isn’t called difficult for nothing. But that makes it rather efficient (especially if it means you pay something).

 I wouldn’t want to change it though. Reading here really has humbled me and I am truly greatful for all my state offers.

[laPapessaGiovanna]

1 hour ago, HereticHick said:

America is a federal system. I understand that a lot of Europeans have a hard time understanding that in so many ways we are a union of 50 states + some territories. A lot of countries have a much more centralized government than the US.

Is it the most efficient system of government? No. But efficiency is not the goal.

Germany is a federal republic too. But yeah I admit they are annoyingly fixated with efficiency up there lol (sorry German FJers :-D)

ETA The EU is not even a federal state but somehow we managed to create a European healthcare card (the TEAM) that allows you to access healthcare anywhere in the EU, our driving license is European too. And we are a pretty quarrelly bunch with plenty of people determined to destroy the EU.

I know this is a smug European rant, but really you can't claim leadership on the whole world and then not have your acts together to fix a voting system absurd enough to elect Donald Fucking Trump after he lost the popular vote by 3 fucking million votes. Really people you need to fix your system, we can't have such a moron with his little orange fingers on the nukes button. And you know that if it weren't for the EC, the gerrymandering and vote discrimination through ID laws the Douche wouldn't be SCROTUS.

Listen, I am all for people's right to self govern, so if you want the whole Trump clan in the WH, it is your right to have them, but please please don't inflict them on us.

And yes, I know I am preaching to the choir and that all of you are infinitely more pissed and more in danger than I am thanks to this administration so I should just shut up, but really watching the train wreck without the possibility of doing anything is unnerving. Especially if the whole system is justified by a concept of freedom highly influenced by paranoia and fueled by conspiracy theories about deep state or other nonsense.

So please please please if anyone of you Americans reading here can't be arsed to go to vote, please do it, do it for us who share the planet with you but don't get a say about who gets to govern the biggest nuclear arsenal, one of the greatest system of natural parks and natural sanctuaries and some of the potentially most polluting industries. Please vote, vote for us, vote for those of you who can't thanks to discriminating laws. Please vote. /end rant and sorry if I offended anyone, I didn't mean to.

[HerNameIsBuffy]

29 minutes ago, laPapessaGiovanna said:

Germany is a federal republic too. But yeah I admit they are annoyingly fixated with efficiency up there lol (sorry German FJers :-D)

The size difference alone will make some systems that work for smaller countries inefficient for us.

I am not defending our system and it can definitely be improved, but it's disingenuous to compare us to countries with much smaller populations and geographical area as if their methods could be as efficiently applied here.

[QuiverFullofBooks]

3 hours ago, SapphireSlytherin said:

Not here. Expired tags (which equals unpaid property taxes and unpaid vehicle registration fees) are not a priority for local police. They will not pull over a car with expired tags (or expired temp tags) unless they egregiously break the law - and sometimes they don't even pull over cars for speeding/running red lights/etc. It's pretty much lawless here. Fun times.

 

They do here (northern Virginia). Lots of jurisdictions, lots of cops. Plus my car spends most of its days in a commuter lot, where cops love to go to get started on their monthly ticket quotas. Right after I moved from DC to the suburbs I bought a car from my uncle, who is a dealer in Arkansas, and drove it home. I got stopped in Virginia - I think just because a cop didn’t like the look of my out-of-state temporary tag - and he freaked out because I had postponed getting my VA driver’s license until after I bought the car. 

[Timetostoplurking]

American here....just want put my experience out there.  Our system might seem inefficient, but I spend very little time dealing with any burocracy.  If I need an ID, I get one.  If I lose my birth certificate, I get one.  When my passport is expired, I get one.   Not really a big deal.  If I lose all three at once....then I guess I’m screwed.  I haven’t registered to vote in years because I haven’t moved and my name and address are at city hall.  I just go in and vote. It takes about 10-15 min.  I do realize this is not the experience of everyone but the thought of all of us Americans wandering around in confusion with this vast, unorganized system of burocracy, unable to do anything is...well...not accurate.  

[VelociRapture]

Guys, Hillary is most likely not running again. She stated as much in that interview people everywhere are blowing out of proportion and taking out of context. When asked if she’d run again she stated no twice. When asked why she hesitated on the second no, she explained that she’d like to be President as she has qualifications that the next President is going to badly need to clean up this mess (especially on the international stage) - but there is a massive difference between wanting something and actually going for it. Many people want to be President, but most of them won’t run a campaign to make it happen. 

So yeah. It’s very likely that Hillary won’t be running again. 

[Iamtheway]

In Sweden you get a personal id-number when you are born. You can’t do anything without it. You have to register where you live and if you’re eligible to vote you get your papers sent to your house. 

My husband got his number when he first moved here and before he became a citizen he could still vote in some local elections. 

[JillyO]

7 hours ago, HerNameIsBuffy said:

The size difference alone will make some systems that work for smaller countries inefficient for us.

I am not defending our system and it can definitely be improved, but it's disingenuous to compare us to countries with much smaller populations and geographical area as if their methods could be as efficiently applied here.

This is such a common American claim. Can you name a few reasons why it would be inefficient to have mandatory registration to make getting IDs, and especially voting, easier just because the US is bigger than other countries that have such a system?

I don't mean historical reasons - yes, lots of things were very difficult to do across thousands of miles in the 1800's. But I mean, what would make that system so hard to implement today?

Obviously, it's never easy to implement a completely new system if you already have a different system that's more or less working. But the fact that changing systems is hard does not mean that it's not possible, or not worth it.

I don't mean to be argumentative at all, but I see this claim "but this wouldn't work in the US because [...]" so often, and I rarely really understand the reasoning. Sometimes it seems like it's just so ingrained in Americans that nothing can ever be changed because America is so special/unique/exceptional that nothing that works in other countries can possibly work here. So, I'm genuinely interested to hear reasons why this wouldn't work in the U.S.

[HerNameIsBuffy]

33 minutes ago, JillyO said:

but I see this claim "but this wouldn't work in the US because [...]" so often, and I rarely really understand the reasoning.

That wasn't my claim and that is why I'm going to answer this post and nope out of this thread because tbh there is a reason I don't discuss politics here and a big part (but not the only reason) of why i have left FJ for long stretches of time because it's so very unpleasant for me here.

That is 100% my problem and not FJ and I don't want people to change a thing.  I'm explaining why I'm responding the way I am and why I will be putting this thread on ignore and not replying after this.

i didn't say anything about a particular system working or not.  I DID say we have a lot of room to improve and change.  Maybe I wasn't clear enough, but the comparisons of the US to Europe all the time that don't take into account that we are so much larger and have wildly varied economies within our country that there are things we cannot do at a Federal level that other countries can.  

Specifically in this instance?  In the areas in the US where people can't get IDs easily that needs to be rectified.  Many of us live in areas where there is no issues.  I absolutely believe they should be free, that's something we should and could do.  Save the money on the I Voted stickers and put it to free IDs to offset some of the cost.  Or trim some other waste and cover the whole thing.

One example is minimum wage.  We've got areas in this country where a 3000 sq ft house is under 100k and some areas the same house would be over a million dollars.  School needs, infrastructure needs, etc....states have to be able to serve their population due to the diversity of problems and logistics of each.

Obviously I didn't communicate well that I was speaking to the over arching point of Europe = good US = bad for not just copying their model when it's not always applicable.  And that's not a shot at the poster to whom I replied, but a general comment.

And saying something may not work is not the same as saying everything is great here and we should change nothing.

I am not a trumper, I am not a republican, yet when I read many things here I have the deep feeling i don't belong here.  I see the same problems and want solutions but I see very complex issues differently than so many who just seem to have all the answers and seem to have little tolerance for anyone who questions the general consensus.

I am horrified by politics in the US right now.  I have never been a flag waver but I am sick that for the first time in my life I would leave if I could.  I don't want to be here, but I have no where else to be.  I was born here.  I have no other recourse than to try to manage my life within the system we have and I don't find it helpful to hear nothing but how much we suck over and over by people in countries who are doing some things better but have their problems as well.  It's demoralizing and anxiety provoking for me to see very complex issues distilled down to "America is stupid, do it like this." and that's how it sometimes feels to me.

So I'm noping out of this conversation because it doesn't matter what I say...nothing matters.  People have their opinions and all I can do is control my own exposure to that which frustrates me.

[SilverBeach]

On 11/1/2018 at 1:51 AM, allthegoodnamesrgone said:

Biden wants to run he's too old, sorry, not sorry, ageist and all that but he's 75 NOW (he will be 76 on Nov 20th) do you really want to run an octogenarian?

Why the fuck not? I despise ageism. Older people are not a monolith.