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Coconut Flan

Josiah and Lauren Part 11: The Baby Watch Continues

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Mama Mia

I’m going to bow out of this thread. It is stunning that you all will go to the mat for something you insist never happens in the 1st place, yet will cause irreparable harm if it ceases to exist. 

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libgirl2

The thread is hot so I thought they were expecting! 

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samurai_sarah
9 minutes ago, Mama Mia said:

I’m going to bow out of this thread. It is stunning that you all will go to the mat for something you insist never happens in the 1st place, yet will cause irreparable harm if it ceases to exist. 

Forgive me, if I am quite surprised that you dismiss everyone who has offered their opinions- even if they agree with you, or respectfully disagree-, and therefore think it is time to bow out. If you choose to do so that, then I can't and won't argue with that. Your choice! And when it comes down to it, that's really all pro-choicers are arguing for.

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katertater
2 minutes ago, libgirl2 said:

The thread is hot so I thought they were expecting! 

same here!!

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formergothardite

Never mind, dont' want to get into this fight today. 

Edited by formergothardite

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AtlanticTug
13 minutes ago, Mama Mia said:

I’m going to bow out of this thread. It is stunning that you all will go to the mat for something you insist never happens in the 1st place, yet will cause irreparable harm if it ceases to exist. 

I think what you fail to recognize is that to YOU the absolute line is the point of viability. For the sake of argument, let's say we can agree that's 23 weeks. Okay, so now we can pass legislation which criminalizes abortions beyond 23 weeks gestation. Nevermind how difficult this is in itself - who goes to jail? The woman? The underground provider? The boyfriend who drove her? The father who gave her the $ for the procedure? The neighbour who told her where she can get it done? But ok, let's for the sake of argument concede that we can even agree on all of those points which will never happen in reality.

Then the question becomes, why is YOUR view of where the line should be drawn any more valid than anyone else's? For you, it's 23 weeks. There are many people for whom it may be end of first trimester, or 13 weeks. There are others who would say it's when the heart starts beating, roughly at 6 weeks. The Catholic Church says it's at the point of conception. So where does this end? Curtailing rights at any point opens the door to keep going and going and going until there is nothing left because there will ALWAYS be people out there for whom the line is somewhere else.

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HerNameIsBuffy

Nothing to see here.

Edited by HerNameIsBuffy
No point.

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Georgiana
5 minutes ago, libgirl2 said:

The thread is hot so I thought they were expecting! 

At this point, I think it's like a married Duggar requirement to post some overly-dramatic social media post about abortion immediately following your marriage.  Some couples conceive quick enough to combine the two into one, like Jill and Joy, and others make stand-alone pro-brith posts like Anna, Jessa, and Lauren.

We should see something from JD and Abbie within the next 4-ish months.  That seems to be approximately the window.  

So when you see a newly married Duggar couple's thread go HOT, it's either a pregnancy announcement, a pro-birth post, or possibly a twofer.  

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Maggie Mae
37 minutes ago, AtlanticTug said:

What we're arguing about is whether poor women should have that same right/ability.

This is so true. I think back on parts of my life where I was so poor (and had absolutely terrible "friends" who did things like "steal and crash my car" and a few other things I don't want to talk about) that I didn't have money for ramen, and then I got fired. I feel really #blessed and lucky that I had a smokin' hot bod (and had a relatively privileged background) and was able to convince some poor guy to drive 6 hours to pick me up and drive me 6 hours in a different direction to take me to my mom's house. And while he wanted to date me, he also was fine with just being friends. Seriously saved my life and sanity.  My credit was ruined for a long time afterward and I'm still dealing with the food insecurity.

If I had managed to get my anorexic body pregnant, there was no abortion for me, as I would not have been able to afford it. It took almost a decade before financial stability, and even now, unexpected expenses can cause huge issues for me if there is more than one at a time. I'd have to wait to get the money, and we all know that when you wait to collect the money when you are pregnant, the rules change. So if I didn't find out I was pregnant right away, that shortens the window to find the money. There are women who don't know they are pregnant at all until they go into labor! So obviously if a woman doesn't find out she's pregnant until she's 24 weeks, then, what? She doesn't get to have a choice? What if she can't arrange travel to a regular abortion clinic until it's too late? Too bad, have the baby and the baby will pay the price. 

Sometimes I can't even leave my state - in 2009 all planes were grounded for a week while we waited for a volcano to stop spewing ash in the air. Then there was a week or two of back up travel.  Preventing access to health care based on finances is immoral. Placing restrictions on what adults do with their body is immoral. It's my opinion, but I honestly can't see how legislating the idea of "no abortions after x weeks (are we talking since LMP or date of conception?)  will ever be a good thing. Ever. Adults get to make decisions about themselves - what is best for them at that moment. Which is why it's a choice - if you don't want to get an abortion after a certain date during your pregnancy, than don't. But what a woman does or doesn't do regarding her medical care isn't anyone's business but hers. (And her families, but ultimately it is her body and she gets to choose if she wants chemo, or to be pregnant, or if she wants a nose job.) 

13 minutes ago, Georgiana said:

So when you see a newly married Duggar couple's thread go HOT, it's either a pregnancy announcement, a pro-birth post, or possibly a twofer.  

Or it's thread drift arguing about mayo! 

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Irishy

I think that this has been a very respectful debate largely. Compared the the social media wars pre referendum here in Ireland anyway 🤣 

I think it’s important to hash topics like this out as comprehensively as possible from time to time. FJ is so calm and tolerant these days. It’s great to see. Feminism is a journey and we are all learning. 

When I first started posting on here 6/7 years ago, I was a judgemental unhappy robot SAHM with no real opinions of my own. Just a passing interest in the Duggars. That husband is now my ex husband, I’m an abortion rights campaigner, my teenage sons are too, and I’m halfway through my degree in sociology. FJ started me on this journey and I’m forever grateful for that. 

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lexiloumarie
30 minutes ago, Mama Mia said:

I’m going to bow out of this thread. It is stunning that you all will go to the mat for something you insist never happens in the 1st place, yet will cause irreparable harm if it ceases to exist. 

You've already flounced and I know I'll never change your mind but for those lurking who are on the fence - here are some key points. 

 

Abortion after the point of viability is extremely rare as stated above and by other posters. It's also usually done because either the fetus is incompatible with life/quality of life or the mothers health is at risk. Thus making it rare and yet extremely necessary. 

Women are also in one of the two most dangerous postions they can be in if they have an abusive partner. Women are most likely to be killed if they are in the process of leaving a partner. The next most dangerous period is pregnancy - with high profile examples of Laci Petersen and Shannon Watts. Murder is the number one cause of death of pregnant women which makes saving lives more than  infection and heart rates and crash carts. Things easily regulatable. Birth control sabotage is a common method of abuse and control.

Access to abortion allows women access to safety and to privacy. 

/Soapboxrant

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TheOneAndOnly
3 minutes ago, Maggie Mae said:
15 minutes ago, Georgiana said:

So when you see a newly married Duggar couple's thread go HOT, it's either a pregnancy announcement, a pro-birth post, or possibly a twofer.  

Or it's thread drift arguing about mayo! 

I was going to say food. :pb_lol: We do like to talk about food.

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Maggie Mae
1 minute ago, TheOneAndOnly said:

I was going to say food. :pb_lol: We do like to talk about food.

Mayo is food! #teammayo 

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Mama Mia
4 minutes ago, lexiloumarie said:

You've already flounced and I know I'll never change your mind but for those lurking who are on the fence - here are some key points. 

 

Abortion after the point of viability is extremely rare as stated above and by other posters. It's also usually done because either the fetus is incompatible with life/quality of life or the mothers health is at risk. Thus making it rare and yet extremely necessary. 

Women are also in one of the two most dangerous postions they can be in if they have an abusive partner. Women are most likely to be killed if they are in the process of leaving a partner. The next most dangerous period is pregnancy - with high profile examples of Laci Petersen and Shannon Watts. Murder is the number one cause of death of pregnant women which makes saving lives more than  infection and heart rates and crash carts. Things easily regulatable. Birth control sabotage is a common method of abuse and control.

Access to abortion allows women access to safety and to privacy. 

/Soapboxrant

I will only add one more thing. It is not “flouncing” to stop engaging in a conversation where clearly no one’s minds will be changed. We could each go on for the next 100 pages, back and forth. There is no point. 

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HerNameIsBuffy
12 minutes ago, lexiloumarie said:

You've already flounce

Disengaging from a conversation is not flouncing and it's disingenuous to imply otherwise.

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viii

As someone who doesn't quite know where they land on the whole abortion issue, I found this thread to be very informative, and I'm glad that it was handled in a respectful, mature manner. 

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