Josiah and Lauren Part 11: The Baby Watch Continues

[JordynDarby5]

6 hours ago, habert said:

Children and teens ALSO have bodily autonomy. Teens being provided free condoms by one organization or another is not ~violating~ their parents’ right. Parents don’t have carte blanche over their children’s body. 

BC still requires a prescription, so a school would not be able to distribute. And, secular teachings of abstaining can be taught as part of comprehensive sexual education. Sex Ed is not about teaching teens to have sex, it’s giving accurate and scientific information about the realities of sex, pregnancy, and STIs so that they can be informed citizens and make appropriate choices!

As much as it would be nice that every parent sat each child down around twelve or thirteen and had the sex talk, talked about the different birth control, STDs and give them a box of condoms or makes an appointment for pills or diaphragm. Or let them know when their planning on having sex and they'll get them birth control or take them to get it. But most parents won't. Whether its religious reasons, head in the sand, uncomfortable, or whatever most won't talk to their teens about sex, birth control and STDS and certainly won't help them or tell them where to get birth control. Well, that's not going to do anything. Teens have sex. Not all teens. But it happens. Which is why all teens needs to be education on sex, different types of birth control and STDS. They need to know where they can get birth control and they need to be able to get birth control. That's a good thing! If parents won't then its up to the schools. I like to joke that I learned to know everything I know about sex in the hallways of high school. Which honestly is true you hear everything in the hallways. Who's hooking up with who, and where, types of sex, information gets passed around about birth control and STDS. However it was only in Sex ED you learned how much of the last two was correct.  They divided the classes so all girls in one and all boys in another so you could ask questions. The teacher answered them all while throwing in every rumor she'd ever heard.    

[Irishy]

13 hours ago, misguidedghost said:

The singular thing I can personally take issue with regarding abortion( I’m not taking a side with the rest of it) is abortions happening after 20 weeks simply because the pregnancy was unwanted. Medical issues are totally different. I have this stance because my own daughter was born at 23 weeks and is now 10yrs old. 22weekers are surviving and thriving. Babies are viable before 24 weeks My husband is a pharmacist and in school one of his labs had a 24wk fetus in a jar(not sure of proper term) and he was deeply disturbed

It’s okay to feel disturbed by 20+ week abortions, and to decide that you could never choose that for yourself. It’s not okay to vote or legislate to prevent another woman from having this procedure. We can never know their reasons. Late discovery of pregnancy, exposure to harmful drugs or alcohol, abusive relationship, poverty, the list of non medical reasons is endless. We have to Trust Women. 

[Carm_88]

People always say "In a perfect world, there would be no abortion." Well maybe that's their perfect world, in my perfect world a woman can make the best choice for her and everyone else doesn't care. Because it doesn't affect them!

[SeekingAdventure]

I'd think if we wanted a perfect world voting for or against abortion would be very low on the list. 

poverty, war, racism, water & health care are just a few things that come to mind...

(well, I don't think anyone should have a say if it does not directly concern them)

[NotQuiteMotY]

On 11/2/2018 at 7:42 PM, Joyfully Available said:

Big difference for me with these two scenarios: 

The 10 year old that got raped by grandpa had no idea what was happening. At least let her have a choice about the outcome of the rest her life. (If a 10 year olds mind can even understand what’s happening.)

** Yes, that instance really happened right here in my community. The parents forced her to have the baby. 

The 20ish year old woman who willingly had sex multiple times with no form of birth control knowing full well she could become pregnant but decided not go buy a box of condoms , track her cycle or  take her birth control pill. She also knows she doesn’t want a baby but doesn’t care to prevent. 

Personal responsibility is everything. 

However, so many different scenarios in life  & it’s not my place to judge. All that being said, I personally have trouble trying to accept each case the same way. 

You definitely make a good point though. 

I suspect I would, in my head, judge the latter. But she is taking responsibility for something her significant other contributed to in the best way she can at that stage. So while I may not approve of how she handles it, I'll keep it legal for her and drive her to the clinic. Maybe I'd suggest she look into something like an IUD or Norplanon to "make it easier on her," but that's it, because that's as far as I'm willing to judge someone who decides she can't continue a pregnancy.

23 minutes ago, Carm_88 said:

People always say "In a perfect world, there would be no abortion." Well maybe that's their perfect world, in my perfect world a woman can make the best choice for her and everyone else doesn't care. Because it doesn't affect them!

In my perfect world there wouldn't be a need because we'd have fantastic medical science accessible by everyone and a good social safety net, but I know that's impossible right now.

Honestly, I had the same experience as @VelociRapture, to a degree. Nowhere near as many difficulties, though was being monitored for a couple of potential problems, but I ended up coming out of having a baby even more pro-choice than before. Even in a "complication free" pregnancy, there is a lot of unseen stress on the body, and there is always the risk of impairment or death for both. If a woman was pregnant and needed to end it for whatever reason, it's her body and her decision. While it's unfortunate she has to make that decision, I'm still putting more importance on a person who's here than a potential person who may not get to be here even without the abortion.

[bekkah]

16 hours ago, Maggie Mae said:

 Abortion IS birth control. I want every woman who needs an abortion - for whatever reason - to be able to easily and quickly find a doctor who is experienced with this procedure. The only way for that to happen is for people to get abortions when they need or want them. I want every person to be able to get the health care they need, regardless ability to pay or location. 

A while back there was a discussion on of the legal advice subreddits about a young girl who needed an abortion for whatever reason, and the posters really came together to help her and her trusted relatives drive her several states away, lying about visiting a college/shopping/history tour, getting the abortion, and then driving home. Teenagers have enough on their plate and should not have to put "find hundreds of dollars and someone to drive me 6 hours so I don't' die" on their list! 

I understand your stance on the left. Believe it or not, I believe we should be feeding, clothing, providing affordable housing, and making a living wage for all because that is what I think Jesus would advocate for. 

But the problem is single issue voters who can't see past the ABORTION!!! policy. So, how do we remedy this? 

I know that young people can handle many responsibilities. Here is where the brain research is catching up: we know we don't have full decision making capabilities till age 25 (https://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=141164708). Teens need to be guided and parents need to stop thinking that schools will raise their kids. I can give you a lot of information about brain development in the early formative years as well and how poverty affects decision making.  

Here is information about healthcare in schools. (https://www.theatlantic.com/education/archive/2015/09/student-health-centers-schools-contraception/403954/ , https://www.csmonitor.com/The-Culture/Family/2012/0926/Birth-control-NYC-schools-dispensing-morning-after-pill-to-girls, https://grist.org/living/a-seattle-high-school-is-taking-birth-control-access-to-the-next-level/) The first article describes what a school based clinic is and how it is changing primary care practice. The last article says that one of the girls talked to their parents about getting birth control before. New York allows parents to opt their kids out of birth control. 

One more-https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/old-school-parenting-modern-day-families/201507/open-letter-teens-and-parents-about-sex

Parental involvement does a lot of good things for kids. See: https://www.naeyc.org/resources/blog/understanding-power-parent-involvement, http://neatoday.org/2014/11/18/the-enduring-importance-of-parental-involvement-2/

[Lizzybet]

On 11/5/2018 at 2:18 PM, melon said:

I could not agree more.I never had an abortion,a miscarriage,or lost a baby.I do understand that,I would have mourned what they would have had,for a baby or a miscarriage.

But,I have lost an adult child,my youngest,at 26.I still cry for him,not everyday,like I did at first,but I still do

 

I’m so very sorry, @melon.

[Mar]

Have any of you read Jodi Picoult’s new novel A spark of light? It starts with a shooting in the last remaining women’s health clinic in the state (Mississippi I believe) and then the storyline moves backwards so you get to know the characters and their reasons for coming to the clinic. It’s a sensitive topic of course but Jodi Picoult really is the master of taking a difficulty topic and writing about it in a very thoughtful and differentiated way. It‘s a very moving and compelling book and it definitely helped me to broaden my understanding of the  topic. The author‘s note at the end of the book is also interesting. She talks about statistics and facts she learned while researching for the book. It’s very disheartening to see how much violence and hate there is against women’s health clinics and how so many politicians (all male of course) go out of their way to make it more difficult and unsafe for women to have abortions.

I highly recommend the book to everyone who is even the tiniest bit interested in the topic or who enjoys well written and complex (but still easy enough to read) novels.

[justodd]

I will never understand the “logic” that says teenagers aren’t mature enough to make informed decisions about their own reproductive health, so they shouldn’t have access to proper education, contraception, and abortion. Keeping your kids ignorant doesn’t stop them from acting out, it just makes the consequences more severe. Keeping your kids in the dark about reproductive health and contraception is nothing short of negligent, and every time I hear/read someone making the asinine argument that THEY should 100% control what their children learn on the matter, it only makes me more convinced that it should be mandatory in every school with no opt out allowed.  

Most of my friends growing up (catholic school from K-12) were as sheltered by their parents as I was, and guess what? None of us was content to stay that way. We all tried our best to figure out how it all worked, and we all heard and spread some pretty wacky “facts” we’d collected from other friends, siblings, etc. (This was starting as young as fourth or fifth grade, mind you, and back in the mid eighties, before the internet was a thing.) We all marveled when my best friend told us in fifth grade that she’d done it with her older cousin. It wouldn’t be until many years later that I would look back at what she said and how she said it, and realize she’d actually been raped. I couldn’t have said that when it happened, because I didn’t even know what rape WAS back then. None of us did. Our school did eventually do a very basic form of sex ed in sixth grade, but by that point, one of my classmates was pregnant by her fifteen year old boyfriend. Another classmate bragged about having had two abortions already. Sixth. Grade. People., in a religious environment. 

Keeping your kids ignorant will not keep them safe. If anything, the argument that kids shouldn’t be engaging in these potentially life altering behaviors is more reason why you SHOULD want them as informed as possible, with every possible method of birth control at their disposal, should they want it (without having to go through you first, because even the closest parent/child relationships have their limits and it’s especially important to honor that as they’re navigating their path to adulthood). A parent refusing to allow their child to participate in sexual education classes at school is little different from an impoverished parent who refuses to let their child accept free lunch at school because they’d rather their child suffer than be seen accepting handouts. In both cases, the child pays the price for the parent’s pride and self righteousness, and that’s never okay, in my book. 

[libgirl2]

34 minutes ago, Mar said:

Have any of you read Jodi Picoult’s new novel A spark of light? It starts with a shooting in the last remaining women’s health clinic in the state (Mississippi I believe) and then the storyline moves backwards so you get to know the characters and their reasons for coming to the clinic. It’s a sensitive topic of course but Jodi Picoult really is the master of taking a difficulty topic and writing about it in a very thoughtful and differentiated way. It‘s a very moving and compelling book and it definitely helped me to broaden my understanding of the  topic. The author‘s note at the end of the book is also interesting. She talks about statistics and facts she learned while researching for the book. It’s very disheartening to see how much violence and hate there is against women’s health clinics and how so many politicians (all male of course) go out of their way to make it more difficult and unsafe for women to have abortions.

I highly recommend the book to everyone who is even the tiniest bit interested in the topic or who enjoys well written and complex (but still easy enough to read) novels.

Thanks for the heads up. We had an Advanced Reader's copy at the library I work at, but someone grabbed it up. I placed a hold and am in position 103! 

[viii]

Thanks for the book rec! I'll have to check it out. About 10 years ago, I was a HUGE Jodi Picoult fan, and read all her books. I got burned out pretty quickly by her serious subjects, and took a pretty long hiatus from her writing. However, she's a fantastic writer and so I'll definitely have to check this book out. 

[Audrey2]

I feel similarly about Kristin Hannah. She's an incredible writer with beautiful descriptions, who can tell a great story, but a character you like almost always dies tragically. (Not so much in her latest book.) 

I did appreciate all of Picoult's research that she shared in her latest book. I always love to read a well-researched book, in which the author doesn't merely regurgitate the research but incorporates it as part of the characters' lives.

[SorenaJ]

I'm not really sure we can trust people to be responsible. People are stupid. A friend of mine made a one-night stand pregnant because they couldn't be bothered with condoms or pills, and were quite *shrugs* about the whole thing. Then just recently, he started seeing another girl, had unprotected sex with her, and they both just laughed about it, even though they didn't want a baby; they just couldn't be bothered with contraception. They were like "oh well, it will probably be fine". Entirely their own fault. 

[misguidedghost]

Hi @Irishy that’s not what I meant at all so I’m sorry if it came out that way. I do want women to be able to make whatever choice is necessary but the viability standards affect people like me who do want the keep their pregnancy because my doctors were prepared to let her die. My l&d nurses didnt know babies that early had a chance... and it was a teaching hospital so I was surprised they didn’t know. I’m thankful everyday there was a mfm telling them to transport me to a better equipped hospital. It was life or death for me and her and I never even went in to labor.  I was just sharing my experience. My husband seeing a fetus like that that was older than our daughter when she had just been born was traumatizing. 

[Jinder Roles]

@justodd Yes! Thank you!

I would also like to add that keeping kids in the dark, shaming and taking away agency significantly hinders decision making capabilities. 

Personal Example: Even though I am reasonably well informed about sexual health (worked that out on my own) and logically don’t buy into the shaming sex-negative narratives people put forward, I still personally have hella paranoia about sex. It’s been quite hindering in trying to work out what decisions are right for me. 

Parents just aren’t entitled to their teen’s sexual decisions. Also some parents are crazy af. 

[Imaginary_Wonderland]

Thanks for the recommendation @Mar . I've added it to my never ending 'must read soon' book list. I already have 6 books sitting on my bed side locker at the moment to get through lol. I am currently reading Small Great Things, my first Jodi Picoult book in ages. I used to read all her books years ago, pre-order on Amazon for their release date etc, but in the last few years I have not read her more recent ones. I  am really loving Small Great Things and I am back to be being hooked on her books, so I am definitely interested in this new one too.

[Mama Mia]

6 hours ago, Irishy said:

It’s okay to feel disturbed by 20+ week abortions, and to decide that you could never choose that for yourself. It’s not okay to vote or legislate to prevent another woman from having this procedure. We can never know their reasons. Late discovery of pregnancy, exposure to harmful drugs or alcohol, abusive relationship, poverty, the list of non medical reasons is endless. We have to Trust Women. 

No. We don’t. Does the same apply in any other instance where a person - woman or otherwise- is determining the well being of another person? That’s why there are regulatios against everything from child abuse to putting harmful waste in river streams to petty theft. There can be extenuating circumstances to all those things, and degree of regulation, but there is regulation. 

If the fetus is viable it ceases to be the sole property of the woman who is pregnant. 

[viii]

8 minutes ago, Jinder Roles said:

Parents just aren’t entitled to their teen’s sexual decisions. Also some parents are crazy af. 

I was 17 when I started dating my boyfriend, and my parents were livid. They pressured me so much to break up with him, because he wasn't a Christian. I told them that I did, even though I hadn't, lol. Still though, I can't imagine what would have happened if I had gotten pregnant as a teenager. I don't know how they would have reacted. It's something I wouldn't have wanted their opinion on, because they would have influenced me to what they wanted, not what was best for me. 

I love my parents dearly, but I do know that raising children in a cult impacted their parenting skills, and I know they often confused God's will and what was best for their children. 

Thankfully it's all in the past now, along with the heathen ex-boyfriend, LOL!

[VelociRapture]

32 minutes ago, Jinder Roles said:

@justodd Yes! Thank you!

I would also like to add that keeping kids in the dark, shaming and taking away agency significantly hinders decision making capabilities. 

Personal Example: Even though I am reasonably well informed about sexual health (worked that out on my own) and logically don’t buy into the shaming sex-negative narratives people put forward, I still personally have hella paranoia about sex. It’s been quite hindering in trying to work out what decisions are right for me. 

Parents just aren’t entitled to their teen’s sexual decisions. Also some parents are crazy af. 

That last paragraph brings up an incredibly important point that hasn’t really been made yet - the fact that teenagers need to have the opportunity to make healthcare decisions on their own because some of them have parent(s) or guardian(s) who are abusive or negligent in one way or another. Not every teenager has a healthy or safe home life and some parents simply can’t be trusted to put the health and best interests of their children first. Those teenagers need to be able to access the care they want or need. As such, I don’t support limiting access to which teens can obtain that care because it could put some of them into dangerous situations. 

And a big thank you to @justoddfor her very polite and well spoken defense of another poster’s right to privacy. 

[FleeJanaFree]

1 hour ago, Mar said:

Have any of you read Jodi Picoult’s new novel A spark of light? It starts with a shooting in the last remaining women’s health clinic in the state (Mississippi I believe) and then the storyline moves backwards so you get to know the characters and their reasons for coming to the clinic. It’s a sensitive topic of course but Jodi Picoult really is the master of taking a difficulty topic and writing about it in a very thoughtful and differentiated way. It‘s a very moving and compelling book and it definitely helped me to broaden my understanding of the  topic. The author‘s note at the end of the book is also interesting. She talks about statistics and facts she learned while researching for the book. It’s very disheartening to see how much violence and hate there is against women’s health clinics and how so many politicians (all male of course) go out of their way to make it more difficult and unsafe for women to have abortions.

I highly recommend the book to everyone who is even the tiniest bit interested in the topic or who enjoys well written and complex (but still easy enough to read) novels.

She's my second favorite author, but this book didn't do a ton for me...mostly because she completely ripped off Dr. Willie Parker (who the doctor was based on) His memoir, Life's Work, was utterly fantastic and he got his points across so much better. I was having deja vu reading Picoults, waiting for her to tell me something I had already read. 

It was still an ok read. 

[justodd]

33 minutes ago, Mama Mia said:

No. We don’t. Does the same apply in any other instance where a person - woman or otherwise- is determining the well being of another person? That’s why there are regulatios against everything from child abuse to putting harmful waste in river streams to petty theft. There can be extenuating circumstances to all those things, and degree of regulation, but there is regulation. 

If the fetus is viable it ceases to be the sole property of the woman who is pregnant. 

We are not currently allowed to take viable organs from a corpse and use them to give sick people in desperate need of transplants a chance to live. By forcing a living, breathing human being to act as an incubator without regard for how the consequences could do her harm, you are literally giving her less right than a corpse. Pregnancy isn’t something a woman can just do without it having serious ramifications on everything from her mental well being to her financial stability to her personal safety to...pretty much every damn facet of her life. Shit happens, and no one, no matter what their circumstance, should be forced to give their life (even temporarily) for the sake of someone else’s. 

[Mama Mia]

11 minutes ago, justodd said:

We are not currently allowed to take viable organs from a corpse and use them to give sick people in desperate need of transplants a chance to live. By forcing a living, breathing human being to act as an incubator without regard for how the consequences could do her harm, you are literally giving her less right than a corpse. Pregnancy isn’t something a woman can just do without it having serious ramifications on everything from her mental well being to her financial stability to her personal safety to...pretty much every damn facet of her life. Shit happens, and no one, no matter what their circumstance, should be forced to give their life (even temporarily) for the sake of someone else’s. 

If the fetus is to the point of potential viability you could just as easily flip that statement. Also, a kidney will never be an individual person. False analogy. 

Also, if she is pregnant with a 24 healthy week fetus, and wants it removed, there is zero reason she can’t be induced instead of terminate.

[FundieCentral]

Several other countries however have the rule that you are an organ-donor unless you opt out. 

To maintain the analogy here: the default could be immediate induction/c-section for a baby at 23+ weeks and giving it up for adoption unless you opt out for an abortion, as a proposal for legislative innovation. 

Unpopular opinion, but I do also think ending a potentially viable life should be more difficult than going to the dentist. I do feel similar about putting down pets though, so I think I’m just attached to tiny living things  

[justodd]

1 minute ago, Mama Mia said:

If the fetus is to the point of potential viability you could just as easily flip that statement. Also, a kidney will never be an individual person. False analogy. 

Like it or not, some women (and young girls, because let’s not pretend it’s only fully grown adult women who fully comprehend what’s happening that ever become pregnant) don’t know they’re pregnant until it’s “too late.” Creating barriers and limits of ANY kind reduces them to little more than a vessel and can have horrible repercussions. The more qualifiers and obstacles put in place, the more dangerous the situation becomes for everyone involved. No one should ever be forced into pregnancy/childbirth, for any reason, period. The health and well being of the person who’s already walking about on the planet needs to be the priority. 

[Mama Mia]

3 minutes ago, justodd said:

Like it or not, some women (and young girls, because let’s not pretend it’s only fully grown adult women who fully comprehend what’s happening that ever become pregnant) don’t know they’re pregnant until it’s “too late.” Creating barriers and limits of ANY kind reduces them to little more than a vessel and can have horrible repercussions. The more qualifiers and obstacles put in place, the more dangerous the situation becomes for everyone involved. No one should ever be forced into pregnancy/childbirth, for any reason, period. The health and well being of the person who’s already walking about on the planet needs to be the priority. 

I am not going to agree with you on this when it is a healthy fetus that is at or near the point of viability. The process for ending a pregnancy at that point is hard on the woman’s body, regardless of outcome. There is no reason that viable infant couldn’t be put up for adoption at that point.