Jump to content
IGNORED

Josiah and Lauren Part 11: The Baby Watch Continues


Coconut Flan

Recommended Posts

@Joyfully Available having multiple abortions is ‘disgusting’ to you. From your privileged educated point of view. Okay...

Consider that the average woman might have approx thirty fertile years. Perhaps little or no sex education. An abusive partner where saying No to sex isn’t an option. Poverty, not a dollar spare to pay for doctors or prescription birth control. Rape. One in three women have experienced sexual assault.

How dare you or anyone judge another woman. So many children are born unwanted and experience horrific traumatic childhoods. 

As for the argument that the world needs babies for potential adoptive parents? Adoption should always be A Home For a Child, not A Child For A Home.

I’m speaking as an abortion rights campaigner here in Ireland. I’ve explored every aspect of abortion and the reasons it is needed. And it always comes back to this: TRUST WOMEN. Trust women to make the right decisions for themselves. Women don’t abort healthy babies up till term. Extremely rarely will a woman require multiple abortions but if she does, then I trust that she is capable of deciding what is best for her. ALWAYS will I trust a woman to decide for herself. No conditions.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Replies 516
  • Created
  • Last Reply
7 hours ago, just_ordinary said:

I am pro choice. But I feel your argument is lacking a bit. Yes, you wouldn’t know. 

But to say “I didn't come out of the womb fully formed, I became who I was after many, many years; I still continue to grow as a person.” implies that you are still becoming who you are, because you aren’t going to stop to grow and change. One could argue that the person you are now wouldn’t know if you had been killed five years ago. But that doesn’t make it ok.

I was in an accident 8 years ago and though it wasn't life threatening, if I had died that night, I would be stuck at 21 in the mind of my parents. They would forever mourn me at 21. It's a much different loss then the choice of aborting. They would have aborted the embryo and that embryo could have become me, but that would be much different then losing the 21 year old that they got through 21 years. The person I am now wouldn't know if I died 8 years ago, but my parents would. I am a fully formed walking, talking human being who has a big place in their hearts. I'm not saying that my parents wouldn't have been conflicted over an abortion or feel bad, but they would have mourned what could have been, not what was.

To put it in perspective, my grandmother had 3 children that died. One died 2 days after birth, one died nearly a month after birth, and one died in their 20s. My grandmother was sad about the loss of her babies, she mourned the lives that they could have been. However, she cried every single week for the child that she knew. The adult man that she cuddled and got through childhood illnesses. It's not the same type of loss.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, Carm_88 said:

I was in an accident 8 years ago and though it wasn't life threatening, if I had died that night, I would be stuck at 21 in the mind of my parents. They would forever mourn me at 21. It's a much different loss then the choice of aborting. They would have aborted the embryo and that embryo could have become me, but that would be much different then losing the 21 year old that they got through 21 years. The person I am now wouldn't know if I died 8 years ago, but my parents would. I am a fully formed walking, talking human being who has a big place in their hearts. I'm not saying that my parents wouldn't have been conflicted over an abortion or feel bad, but they would have mourned what could have been, not what was.

To put it in perspective, my grandmother had 3 children that died. One died 2 days after birth, one died nearly a month after birth, and one died in their 20s. My grandmother was sad about the loss of her babies, she mourned the lives that they could have been. However, she cried every single week for the child that she knew. The adult man that she cuddled and got through childhood illnesses. It's not the same type of loss.

I could not agree more.I never had an abortion,a miscarriage,or lost a baby.I do understand that,I would have mourned what they would have had,for a baby or a miscarriage.

But,I have lost an adult child,my youngest,at 26.I still cry for him,not everyday,like I did at first,but I still do

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I've had an abortion and I've placed a baby for adoption as a teenager. The adoption was far more painful with life long consequences. I've never doubted for a moment that I made the right choice in both situations. One just brought grief, the other did not. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

In the US, you cannot take organs from a corpse for donation to save one or more lives unless the person is an organ donor. You can't force anyone to donate blood. But you can force a woman to use her body to give birth. A corpse has more bodily autonomy than a pregnant woman.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 11/2/2018 at 6:11 PM, Georgiana said:

So why did you place all the blame on her? Why wasn’t it her BOYFRIEND’s responsibility to ensure that he was ejaculating in a way that wouldn’t result in pregnancy? 

Because 100% of the time, unplanned pregnancies are the result of irresponsible semen dispensation. A woman need not take the pill, she may have as many partners as she wishes, she may cum as many times as she wants, and it’s will still be PHYSICALLY IMPOSSIBLE for her to get pregnant unless there is an irresponsible penis involved.

And while both parties should excercise responsibility with regards to sex, is it not PRIMARILY the duty of the semen giver to ensure his semen is deposited responsibly? It makes no sense to put that primarily on the woman. That’s all patriarchy. 

While she failed, her failure was secondary. Where is the blame for the MEN responsible for causing these pregnancies? Where are the consequences for THEM?

Why do we still blame women for unwanted pregnancies instead of the MEN who CHOSE to irresponsibly ejaculate? 

I think you’re trying to have it both ways here though. It doesn’t seem reasonable to say that women should have sole agency and responsibility for the decision of what to do with an unintended pregnancy - but at the same time have only secondary agency or responsibility for it’s occurrence.  Unless it’s a case of rape or coercion or abuse - it would seem, to me, both parties are equally responsible for preventing pregnancy. The woman should ultimately be the deciding party, as the physical risks lie on her, but it is, in my view, infantalizing to make her seem like a passive object. 

I have a problem with abortions done for non-medical reasons at or near the point of viability. You can certainly write severe, long term health / viability issues into the regulations as exceptions. I am well aware that the vast majority of terminations past 20 weeks are for heartbreaking reasons of severe health / disability issues of the baby. Or severe threat to the mother’s life. That should absolutely remain an option. 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 11/3/2018 at 4:06 PM, bal maiden said:

It is possible to hold both the beliefs that life has begin at conception (or heartbeat, whatever), and still be pro-choice, despite what pro-life narratives would have us believe. I can believe that a foetus is a proto-person, and still believe that the mother's life can be prioritised over that of the foetus. 

I am very similar in belief. I am a huge supporter of separation of church and state. Just because I believe that life begins at conception and would never choose to abort a child, unless medically necessary, I don’t want access to safe abortion taken away. I also think that we should be focusing on what we need to do to lower abortion rates like good sex ed classes, easy and cheap birth control, and supports for after the baby is born. These fundies aren’t pro-life they are pro-birth. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

9 hours ago, Mama Mia said:

I have a problem with abortions done for non-medical reasons at or near the point of viability. You can certainly write severe, long term health / viability issues into the regulations as exceptions. I am well aware that the vast majority of terminations past 20 weeks are for heartbreaking reasons of severe health / disability issues of the baby. Or severe threat to the mother’s life. That should absolutely remain an option. 

 

Good luck to anyone finding a doctor willing to do this. These type of abortions simply do not happen, although anti choicers would have us believe it.

in the documentary After Tiller, which follows the very few (I think 3) doctors in the US who perform late term abortions. All are for medical reasons. There is a scene where a French woman contacts one doctor asking for an abortion, having just discovered she is pregnant at 36 weeks, and finding nobody willing to help her in Europe. The American doctor also refuses her. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, Irishy said:

Good luck to anyone finding a doctor willing to do this. These type of abortions simply do not happen, although anti choicers would have us believe it.

in the documentary After Tiller, which follows the very few (I think 3) doctors in the US who perform late term abortions. All are for medical reasons. There is a scene where a French woman contacts one doctor asking for an abortion, having just discovered she is pregnant at 36 weeks, and finding nobody willing to help her in Europe. The American doctor also refuses her. 

You are conflating Dr’s who will perform abortions in the third trimester with Dr’s who perform abortions in the 20 -26 week range. As I stated, the vast majority of post- 20 week abortions are for severe fetal abnormalities, or occasionally, risk to the mothers life. Most is not all. In my state abortion is very easy to obtain. I personally know of two women who had 22- 24 week terminations for non-medical reasons. I’m older, and have a large family and worked in the social service field - so my anecdotal sample will be skewed - but my point is, it can, and does, happen. Rarely. But the vast majority of laws and regulations are designed for the “rarely” not the “common” . 

20 weeks is arbitrary, but it is the generally accepted cut-off between miscarriage and stillbirth, so seems a reasonable point for consideration of weighing two individuals rights. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

51 minutes ago, Mama Mia said:

You are conflating Dr’s who will perform abortions in the third trimester with Dr’s who perform abortions in the 20 -26 week range. As I stated, the vast majority of post- 20 week abortions are for severe fetal abnormalities, or occasionally, risk to the mothers life. Most is not all. In my state abortion is very easy to obtain. I personally know of two women who had 22- 24 week terminations for non-medical reasons. I’m older, and have a large family and worked in the social service field - so my anecdotal sample will be skewed - but my point is, it can, and does, happen. Rarely. But the vast majority of laws and regulations are designed for the “rarely” not the “common” . 

20 weeks is arbitrary, but it is the generally accepted cut-off between miscarriage and stillbirth, so seems a reasonable point for consideration of weighing two individuals rights. 

You’re right. I mis-read viability for term. Apologies. 

24 weeks is the cut off in the UK, and the proposed legislation for Ireland will include up to 24 weeks where there is a risk to the health of the mother. I still consider it to be a matter between a woman and her doctor though. Not legislators. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I wanted to put this book as a recommendation: Waiting with Gabriel: A story of cherishing a baby's brief life by Amy Kuebelbeck.

I learned a lot about the process of treating babies with terminal conditions. Most times states have laws that prevent parents from making palliative care decisions. They had to fight to let their child die in peace without medical procedures IIRC

I wish @treemom was still here because she went through a late term procedure. 

I may be pro-life but I still advocate for reducing the number of abortions a year instead of outright banning it illegal.  And I'm not a single issue voter, I vote for policies that will effectively change lives of mother and children. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, bekkah said:

advocate for reducing the number of abortions a year. 

Reducing the number of abortions per year can be accomplished by providing comprehensive sex education to everyone. None of this abstinence only spiel that is used in the United States. All methods of contraception should be at no cost to the individual receiving it. It should also be easily accessible. I wouldn’t object to students being able to pick up condoms from the school nurse or other authorized person in the schools. Subsidized childcare and parental leave would also help as well as resources to provide those in need with baby supplies such as cribs, bottles, etc. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

49 minutes ago, Knight of Ni said:

 None of this abstinence only spiel that is used in the United States. All methods of contraception should be at no cost to the individual receiving it. It should also be easily accessible. I wouldn’t object to students being able to pick up condoms from the school nurse or other authorized person in the schools. 

At what point, do parents get to not have a decision in kids medical decisions? I ask because going to pick up birth control and releasing it to minors is me a violation of parenting. 

I work in schools and kids don't get parented. It's always up as a topic of discussion. School nurses or schools should not be taking responsibility for certain matters.  One of the school nurses backed  out of helping a student obtain an abortion without their parents knowing.  I get providing education about these topics but I don't agree that school systems should be responsible for  providing medical care to students. I don't want my hypothetical child to make adult decisions until they are 18.  You will disagree with me, I'm ok with that. To me there is a difference between providing comprehensive sexual education and to providing birth control in schools.  The school system is already overstretched with responsibilities and to keep adding things to do without proper funding is dragging our system down.   

Link to comment
Share on other sites

13 minutes ago, bekkah said:

To me there is a difference between providing comprehensive sexual education and to providing birth control in schools.

This, combined with your first sentence in that paragraph --- "I work in schools and kids don't get parented" --- is EXACTLY why schools should be providing birth control. Kids don't/won't talk to their parents about having sex (and MANY parents avoid this responsibility) , and it's MUCH PREFERABLE that they have methods to prevent pregnancy and/or disease than to have unwanted pregnancy/illnesses.

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

18 hours ago, Mama Mia said:

I think you’re trying to have it both ways here though. It doesn’t seem reasonable to say that women should have sole agency and responsibility for the decision of what to do with an unintended pregnancy - but at the same time have only secondary agency or responsibility for it’s occurrence.  Unless it’s a case of rape or coercion or abuse - it would seem, to me, both parties are equally responsible for preventing pregnancy. The woman should ultimately be the deciding party, as the physical risks lie on her, but it is, in my view, infantalizing to make her seem like a passive object. 

I have a problem with abortions done for non-medical reasons at or near the point of viability. You can certainly write severe, long term health / viability issues into the regulations as exceptions. I am well aware that the vast majority of terminations past 20 weeks are for heartbreaking reasons of severe health / disability issues of the baby. Or severe threat to the mother’s life. That should absolutely remain an option. 

 

It's actually consistent.  I expect her to take full responsibility for her body.  I expect him to take full responsibility for his.  I don't want her to have the 100% gatekeeping responsibility to prevent pregnancy.  That's not a fair burden.  I want it to be 50/50.  And since it is currently 100/0, that means we need to start arguing vigorously to REMOVE some responsibility from women and place it back on the men.

But when it comes to pregnancy, that's NOT a shared effort.  Women do 100% of the gestating.  Therefore, they get 100% of the decision-making power regarding the pregnancy and it's continuation.  If we were seahorses, it would be different.  But we aren't.  There's a biological disparity, and I see no issue recognizing that.  I think we can also recognize that the act of intercourse is separate from the act of pregnancy.  The two MAY be coupled, but are not ALWAYS coupled.  It makes sense to separate them and say that one is a team effort...and one is not.  Men have choices in intercourse and responsibility, but they have no biological role in pregnancy, and therefore should have no say over how the pregnancy is handled.  Your genetic material is clearly not THAT valuable to you if you're shooting it around without care, which is how unintended pregnancies happen.  

So while I'm not saying that she CAN'T or SHOULDN'T be responsible with what kind of sex she allows, I'm saying that at the end of the day, that's not 100% her responsibility and she should not have 100% of the blame.  I'm saying he has 50% responsibility (maybe more!) for that, and we need to hold him accountable.

Essentially, we expect women take hormones and stick things inside them just so men don't have to have the burden of ejaculating responsibly, and I for one think that is BULLSHIT. Then, when they fail (because they all have a failure rate), we STILL blame her.  The idea that women are solely responsible for obtaining or preventing a pregnancy is medieval, and we should be ashamed our society still accepts it in many ways.  

The original poster suggested that it really was all the woman's fault that she got pregnant.  It wasn't.  And I don't think she should be held responsible for HIS unwillingness to use forms of contraception available to him.  In that, yes, I think her responsibility is secondary.  It would be NICE if she bought him condoms and made him wear them, but ultimately that is not her responsibility to see to his prevention.  She is accountable to HER choice not to prevent, but he is equally accountable for his.  And that's the part that's missing: this poster is blaming a woman for something that was a team effort.  

Further, it makes NO sense to hold one adult accountable for the actions of another.  But it makes ALL sense to hold an adult accountable for their own body.  Holding men accountable for their ejaculations is holding them accountable for their own actions.  Holding a woman accountable because her partner failed to use protection is holding her accountable for the actions of another adult.  A woman should not be enforcing whether a man wears condoms.  HE should be buying and wearing them, and HE should be accountable for his decision not to do so.  

Yes, women should take their own steps.  Yes, women should take control of their bodies, and yes that includes abortion.  BUT women should NOT be expected to spend their own money (of which they make less than men!), endure the burden of hormones that must be taken daily and at the same time, or place things that may be uncomfortable inside themselves just so men don't have to worry about ejaculation.  Those things can all have very real medical consequences, and it's time we gave women the freedom to say "No thanks" and placed more burden on adult men to control where they are spreading their fluids.  Because that is SUPER doable with 0 side effects.  

Here's a wonderful twitter rant that says it better than I could:

https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/unwanted-pregnancy-men-abortion-mormon-gabrielle-blair-contraception-twitter-a8541071.html 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, SapphireSlytherin said:

This, combined with your first sentence in that paragraph --- "I work in schools and kids don't get parented" --- is EXACTLY why schools should be providing birth control. Kids don't/won't talk to their parents about having sex (and MANY parents avoid this responsibility) , and it's MUCH PREFERABLE that they have methods to prevent pregnancy and/or disease than to have unwanted pregnancy/illnesses.

 

 

OMG THIS.

My parents are lovely but atthe age of 22, I still cannot have a conversation about sex with them. We never talked about it growing up. Other aspects of puberty, yes. Sex? Absolutely not. I’ve learned everything I know about the topic from thorough research, and friends.

Comprehensive sex education includes accepting that some teens/people will choose to have sex, and preparing them to do that safely and responsibly. A large part of that is providing access to birth control. Even if the amount or type of sexual activity they engage in (providing it’s consensual) makes you uncomfortable. 

I’ve been reading up a lot on birth control recently and a lot of women under age 26 do not make as much use out of birth control provided by their insurance plan because they’re under their parents’ plan. I myself am wondering how the hell I’d finesse birth control without my mother getting a statement about it or seeing any pills etc.  

I find it so frustrating that when women have unexpected pregnancies they get railed for being irresponsible, but people exclude, shame, and terrify them out of birth control (which is an opportunity to be responsible) 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, bekkah said:

At what point, do parents get to not have a decision in kids medical decisions? I ask because going to pick up birth control and releasing it to minors is me a violation of parenting.   

Having condoms readily available isn't a medical decision. I'm sure that's what the idea would be here. Obviously a school counsellor or nurse cannot prescribe hormonal birth control or insert IUDs or anything that is actually medically intrusive.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

42 minutes ago, AtlanticTug said:

Having condoms readily available isn't a medical decision. I'm sure that's what the idea would be here. Obviously a school counsellor or nurse cannot prescribe hormonal birth control or insert IUDs or anything that is actually medically intrusive.

Some schools do have hormonal birth control, as well as barrier methods, available. My kids high school had, IIRC, a Physicians Assistant? Maybe it was a Dr? Who came in and did clinics. I’m pretty sure it was much like Planned Parenthood, where you rarely spend time with a physician, most work is done through a nurse or social worker, with review and sign off by the appropriate professional.

In my state, minors over age 12? Maybe 14? Can obtain all services for sexual health independently and confidentially. There is also a form of Medicaid that is based solely on the young person’s income and is immediate easy approval ( a one page form ) . This way young people do not have to use their parent’s insurance. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

In the UK, all prescriptions for contraception are free of charge to anyone of any age. Any medication prescribed only costs about £8 anyway, but for some that is a barrier, so contraception is explicitly free. There are also plenty of places that teens can pick up free condoms. I don't know about schools, but in my area anyone can walk into a doctor's surgery and pick up a handful from a box by the front desk, no questions asked. I have no idea what impact this has on unplanned pregnancy/abortion rate. But it seems like a good thing, regardless. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The singular thing I can personally take issue with regarding abortion( I’m not taking a side with the rest of it) is abortions happening after 20 weeks simply because the pregnancy was unwanted. Medical issues are totally different. I have this stance because my own daughter was born at 23 weeks and is now 10yrs old. 22weekers are surviving and thriving. Babies are viable before 24 weeks My husband is a pharmacist and in school one of his labs had a 24wk fetus in a jar(not sure of proper term) and he was deeply disturbed

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Children and teens ALSO have bodily autonomy. Teens being provided free condoms by one organization or another is not ~violating~ their parents’ right. Parents don’t have carte blanche over their children’s body. 

BC still requires a prescription, so a school would not be able to distribute. And, secular teachings of abstaining can be taught as part of comprehensive sexual education. Sex Ed is not about teaching teens to have sex, it’s giving accurate and scientific information about the realities of sex, pregnancy, and STIs so that they can be informed citizens and make appropriate choices!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 hours ago, bekkah said:

I may be pro-life but I still advocate for reducing the number of abortions a year instead of outright banning it illegal.  

I might be far left, but I don't even want to reduce the number of abortions, necessarily. I think more people should have abortions, if they need them. Abortion IS birth control. I want every woman who needs an abortion - for whatever reason - to be able to easily and quickly find a doctor who is experienced with this procedure. The only way for that to happen is for people to get abortions when they need or want them. I want every person to be able to get the health care they need, regardless ability to pay or location. If a woman in Naknek, Alaska needs an abortion, she should be able to find a doctor who can perform it without having to jump through hoops.  Same with a woman in Alabama or Washington DC. 

A while back there was a discussion on of the legal advice subreddits about a young girl who needed an abortion for whatever reason, and the posters really came together to help her and her trusted relatives drive her several states away, lying about visiting a college/shopping/history tour, getting the abortion, and then driving home. Teenagers have enough on their plate and should not have to put "find hundreds of dollars and someone to drive me 6 hours so I don't' die" on their list! 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I might have just missed this but have we discussed the wedding pics up on TLC? For some reason I feel like I hadn't yet seen pics of their full wedding party.  Do we know who the groomsman in the wheelchair was? Everyone else in Josiah's party is a bridge or groom's sib or austin (who is looking particularly dorky in these pictures, i might add) but i've never seen that guy before (haven't watched the episode yet).

also i hate the bridesmaid dresses somuch. the puckered tops + high neckline are just not doing it for any of those ladies. 

  http://www.tlc.com/tlcme/see-josiah-and-lauren-duggars-wedding-photos/

Link to comment
Share on other sites

10 hours ago, bekkah said:

I wish @treemom was still here because she went through a late term procedure. 

I tried really hard to ignore this, but it’s been gnawing at me all day, so I feel I must. 

Treemom is a friend of mine (we met in person maybe two, two and a half years before we realized we both posted here) and I know she’s been very open about that particular experience. I also know that it was very painful for her, and the thought that (were she still posting here) she might be prodded by another poster into talking about it if she didn’t first speak up on her own really doesn’t sit right with me.  Neither does having it mentioned so casually when she isn’t around. For all we know, she may have jumped right into the discussion with her story. There’s also the chance she may have wanted to avoid it. We don’t know, and I don’t think it’s right to bring her name into it when she isn’t here to have her own say. 

Just my two cents.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • HerNameIsBuffy locked this topic

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.



×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

By using this site, you agree to our Terms of Use.