Bates 25: Moving The Kids Out of the House

[FaithAndReason]

For these fundie guys, I would say Josh is the poster child for not getting married young. Putting the molestation charges aside—before Josh was 30, he had five children and a wife to support. That’s a lot of responsibility, especially when the financial burden falls solely on the man. And things did not go well. I’m actually happy the Bates boys aren’t marrying if they aren’t ready. If you’re gonna cling to your fundie values (no touch/sex before marriage and no birth control even no NFP after marriage), there’s no need to put yourself and some poor fundie maiden in a position where you are overwhelmed with responsibilities before either one is ready and leading to a possible very public implosion (a la Josh and Anna). Bates seemed to have learned more from the Duggars than the Duggars themselves,  who are still marrying off the boys relatively young (outside of JD)

[SassyPants]

9 minutes ago, FaithAndReason said:

For these fundie guys, I would say Josh is the poster child for not getting married young. Putting the molestation charges aside—before Josh was 30, he had five children and a wife to support. That’s a lot of responsibility, especially when the financial burden falls solely on the man. And things did not go well. I’m actually happy the Bates boys aren’t marrying if they aren’t ready. If you’re gonna cling to your fundie values (no touch/sex before marriage and no birth control even no NFP after marriage), there’s no need to put yourself and some poor fundie maiden in a position where you are overwhelmed with responsibilities before either one is ready and leading to a possible very public implosion (a la Josh and Anna). Bates seemed to have learned more from the Duggars than the Duggars themselves,  who are still marrying off the boys relatively young (outside of JD)

This might be another example of how the Duggars' money has worked against them, and conversely, how have greater money scarcity has seemingly influenced the 2nd generation Bates to make different decisions in terms of marriage, education and careers.

I would agree with your assertion if we were talking about fundies at large (IE those who do not have a long running reality TV show(s) or a patriarch who is a real estate tycoon), but the Duggars are unique. In most families, Josh (with similar education levels, skills, ambition) and his family would be living in poverty. Josh and Anna were never in danger of being homeless or going hungry.

[FaithAndReason]

3 hours ago, SassyPants said:

This might be another example of how the Duggars' money has worked against them, and conversely, how have greater money scarcity has seemingly influenced the 2nd generation Bates to make different decisions in terms of marriage, education and careers.

I would agree with your assertion if we were talking about fundies at large (IE those who do not have a long running reality TV show(s) or a patriarch who is a real estate tycoon), but the Duggars are unique. In most families, Josh (with similar education levels, skills, ambition) and his family would be living in poverty. Josh and Anna were never in danger of being homeless or going hungry.

I wasn't referring to Josh and Anna at risk of being homeless or hungry, or the Bates family either, for that matter. I was referencing the fact that for fundies, IMHO, it's better to sow your oats while you are single and don't have the responsibilities that come with being a young married fundie (those respons. are many mouths to feed in a short period of time).

It can, can, not necessarily will, lead to the public implosion as we saw with Josh. Because, while getting married so one can play dress up at a wedding, have all attention on you for once, getting to touch, kiss, have sex, etc.,  seems exciting when you are 20ish, the reality 5-10 years on can be pretty hard. I'm not referring to finances. I'm referring to the work involved with having a family of seven at 29 years old. No amount of money solves the workload of raising 5 kids (and counting) plus trying to have a marriage, work your job, run the house and on and on. Maybe in some of these young marriages, the strain, the regret at not being free to have the fun you now realize you missed because you wanted to have sex.... leads to the affairs, and what not, that we've seen with Josh and a few other royal fundie marriages. Sow the oats first so you know you've got it out of your system and are ready for the commitment that marriage and many babies brings. 

All I am saying, maybe not very clearly, is that if these guys are able to understand that they aren't ready to be married, then good on them. And if Josh's public messes helped them learn and prevent another family from going down that road, good. 

[HerNameIsBuffy]

3 hours ago, SassyPants said:

Josh and Anna were never in danger of being homeless or going hungry.

also never in danger of Josh ever having to provide at all.

Anna likely had no idea what she was getting into, but she knows the deal with the devil that was made and chooses to bring more children into the fraudulent shit show they call a marriage.

[SassyPants]

5 hours ago, HerNameIsBuffy said:

also never in danger of Josh ever having to provide at all.

Anna likely had no idea what she was getting into, but she knows the deal with the devil that was made and chooses to bring more children into the fraudulent shit show they call a marriage.

Actually that fact is far more to the point I was trying to make about the Duggars and their money. The money allows the 2nd generation to exist in a fairy tale world where education, skills,  BC, fidelity and jobs are not necessary to live an upper middle class life with all the trimmings. The 2G Bates children never really had parental money and real estate holdings to safely fall back on, and IMO, that has been a detriment to the Duggars and their public image.

[BeccaGrim]

All of the patriarchy damaging boys aside, it is odd that the Bates boys can't seem to court and marry, with the exception of Zach.  They're pretty good looking young men and they all have jobs.  You would think within their world, the mamas would be throwing the ladies in front of them.  

[JermajestyDuggar]

29 minutes ago, BeccaGrim said:

All of the patriarchy damaging boys aside, it is odd that the Bates boys can't seem to court and marry, with the exception of Zach.  They're pretty good looking young men and they all have jobs.  You would think within their world, the mamas would be throwing the ladies in front of them.  

My opinion a couple pages ago was basically Nathan is cautious due to his broken heart, Lawson loves girls fawning over him too much to be tied down, and Trace is still pretty young. 

[TeaELSee]

How old was Zach when he got married?

[VelociRapture]

24 minutes ago, TeaELSee said:

How old was Zach when he got married?

I think he turned 25 a couple weeks after their wedding. He should be 30 this year and their fifth anniversary is coming up very soon.

[ophelia]

9 hours ago, BeccaGrim said:

All of the patriarchy damaging boys aside, it is odd that the Bates boys can't seem to court and marry, with the exception of Zach.  They're pretty good looking young men and they all have jobs.  You would think within their world, the mamas would be throwing the ladies in front of them.  

Don't encourage JRod even more! She would DIE to marry off on of her daughters into the Bates family.

[NoKidsAndCounting]

12 hours ago, ophelia said:

Don't encourage JRod even more! She would DIE to marry off on of her daughters into the Bates family.

OMG!  I am trying to imagine a Rod/Bates wedding.  There would be eleventy thousand guests!  Jill would go into full grifting mode, and she'd completely turn green just thinking about all of the money and gifts!  I think if a Bates boy married a Rod girl, the wedding would probably not be what the Bates are accustomed to in terms of designer dresses, flowers, bridesmaids dresses, food.  I'm not saying that to be rude, but there is an obvious disparity in wealth between the two families. 

[formergothardite]

4 hours ago, NoKidsAndCounting said:

I think if a Bates boy married a Rod girl, the wedding would probably not be what the Bates are accustomed to in terms of designer dresses, flowers, bridesmaids dresses, food. 

Even if UP paid for it all Jill would turn it into a tacky hot mess with her attempting to be center stage. 

[ophelia]

It would be a snark fest!! But if UP paid for it there wouldn't be no livestream. Damn!

[JermajestyDuggar]

Lawson is 26, Nathan is 25, and Trace is 21. Lawson and Nathan really aren’t that old for still being single. Since males in fundieland get married a little older than the females. 

[singsingsing]

20 minutes ago, JermajestyDuggar said:

Lawson is 26, Nathan is 25, and Trace is 21. Lawson and Nathan really aren’t that old for still being single. Since males in fundieland get married a little older than the females. 

Yeah, they're probably getting to the age where the pressure is on, but they're not unusually old to still be single or anything.

[Pecansforeveryone]

No, none of the Bates boys are unusually old to still be single. Also the Bates have been moving in more "worldly" fundie circles lately where there isn't quite as much pressure to marry young or even quite as much pressure to have as many children as physically possible. 

[nokidsmom]

On 12/4/2018 at 3:20 AM, just_ordinary said:

I just wanted to say that I think we sometimes look so much at the women that we forget to see that the men are victims too (the second generation of course). It’s just concealed as they have it easier but that doesn’t mean they don’t suffer too.

ITA.   For in spite of men being groomed to be headships, where they are supposed to call the shots with their own families (eventually) they still live under a set of rigid rules that constrains their lives just as much even when they appear to have more "freedom".  And there's not a lot of room to question or modify the expectations.   What about men who don't want to live that?  Or they question their ability or willingness to support a large family especially with limited or no education?   They don't want to marry at all?  

The first fundie young man that I realized was being hurt which was early in my time here at FJ was Zach.   And yes, it was the broken courtship.  He had been raised to believe in the courtship rules, did all by the book (no doubt at the direction of his parents) and it failed.  While things were kept quiet, there was no mistake this was devastating to him probably far more than if he was just dating and without all the courtship expectations.  I remember feeling angry that his parents pushed this whole courtship business on him rather than let him just date and take these things along a more natural course.     It was this situation that woke me up to the fact that men are hurt too. 

[Casserole]

5 hours ago, Pecansforeveryone said:

No, none of the Bates boys are unusually old to still be single. Also the Bates have been moving in more "worldly" fundie circles lately where there isn't quite as much pressure to marry young or even quite as much pressure to have as many children as physically possible. 

they're for sure not too old, but because the Bateses have married off their daughters so young, skipping all the boys in birth order, it just looks crazy at first glance. 

 

I do wonder if K&G charge rent to their adult children, making the boys more valuable to keep around with less rush to marry them off.

[HarleyQuinn]

On 12/8/2018 at 5:23 PM, JermajestyDuggar said:

Lawson is 26, Nathan is 25, and Trace is 21. Lawson and Nathan really aren’t that old for still being single. Since males in fundieland get married a little older than the females. 

I read this in a Nat Geo voice. 

[Melissa1977]

9 hours ago, Casserole said:

they're for sure not too old, but because the Bateses have married off their daughters so young, skipping all the boys in birth order, it just looks crazy at first glance. 

 

I do wonder if K&G charge rent to their adult children, making the boys more valuable to keep around with less rush to marry them off.

Change rent for sure! When parents rely on their teenager son income to buy food, they are not going to afford any of his needs once he is an adult.

Lawson is an exception on the young marriage issue. Zach was expected to marry young (failed courtship) and finally married at 25, which is not old. And Nathan was expected to marry young, but again the courtship failed. So it's not that Bates are against marrying sons young. I'm.sure Kelly is pushing her boys to marry and pissed because Lawson is still single.

[ophelia]

Marrying off her kids (at least her daughters) seems to have become some kind of entertainment for Kelly. It seems like now that her baby making years are over this is the one thing that she's into and that helps her NOT to take actual care of the kids she already has. 

[just_ordinary]

1 hour ago, ophelia said:

Marrying off her kids (at least her daughters) seems to have become some kind of entertainment for Kelly. It seems like now that her baby making years are over this is the one thing that she's into and that helps her NOT to take actual care of the kids she already has. 

This, and there is the thing that people are often more interested in the girls. (Interesting fact that baby girls/girls “sell” better on TV or the SM influencer world. It’s kind of sad, wonder if that is because content about motherhood/pregnancy/parenting is mostly watched by women? But why should they be more into girls when you always have a 50/50 chance?) 

Their relationships and weddings are probably very good selling points when they talk to UP about renewing the contract for another season. The big question is what will happen when Katie is married (not far away I guess). Will Lawson have to step up? He at least has enough fans to be interesting to the audience or maybe Nathan working the broken heart angle?

[Pecansforeveryone]

I forget the Bates have a show. I wonder if the Bates would be less devastated by the loss of their show than the Duggars since it's not as well-known as the Duggars. Have the Bates ever gotten a book deal? I realize the Bates are celebrities in IBLP circles. I just think they are barely known in popular culture. I forget about them on a regular basis, and I'm on a fundie forum. 

[theotherelise]

It also seems like the girls themselves have encouraged the relationships which led to marriage. Erin especially likes looking for boys for her sisters. Possibly this is because they don't have much else to do besides keep up the kids and home. Meanwhile the boys have a lot more going on. 

After two failed courtships among the boys, I can imagine it would be pretty intimidating for the older boys to ask a father about a courting his daughter. You would want to be pretty sure before taking that step. That's part of why courting is so absurd. Wanting to get to know someone better with romantic intentions shouldn't require you to be certain you'll marry the person.

[AussieKrissy]

21 hours ago, HarleyQuinn said:

I read this in a Nat Geo voice. 

Or David Attenbourough