Josie and Kelton 2: Kelton Gets His Happily Ever After

[Palimpsest]

22 minutes ago, Naughty&nice said:

I was just having a boring Monday & decided to have some fun.

And there we have it.  The troll comes out from under the bridge.  It was so obvious.  Just look at its posts.

Dear Rufus, this one was nasty, but so easy to smoke out.  Would that they were all so obvious.

[Rachel333]

56 minutes ago, Palimpsest said:

And there we have it.  The troll comes out from under the bridge.  It was so obvious.  Just look at its posts.

Dear Rufus, this one was nasty, but so easy to smoke out.  Would that they were all so obvious.

I'm actually not totally buying that she's a troll. I think she really meant what she said but now that she has been called out is trying to act like she was just messing with us all along. That's something I see people do a lot on the internet when they realize they've been made to look bad. To me the way she tried to walk back her comments about Josie's appearance suggests someone who was trying to save face rather than someone just trolling. I think the ugly beliefs she demonstrated are real.

[formergothardite]

8 hours ago, Naughty&nice said:

I was just having a boring Monday & decided to have some fun.

Your boring Monday involves posting a picture of a 16 year old and saying that because she was so pretty and grown up looking she will be able to notice danger signs. You were justifying a really horrible mindset, one that causes a lot of harm in real life.

And before you claim you didn't say that, I'll quote you. That is exactly what you said. 

Quote

The picture was simply to show that she is a beautiful grown up looking 16 year old girl.  Not some child in pigtails who cant see danger coming.  

 

6 hours ago, Rachel333 said:

To me the way she tried to walk back her comments about Josie's appearance suggests someone who was trying to save face rather than someone just trolling. I think the ugly beliefs she demonstrated are real.

Exactly. I bet she actually didn't think there would be an issue with stating that Josie was a beautiful grown up looking 16 year old and didn't look young with pigtails so she would be able to spot red flags. It really didn't matter if Josie looked young or old, she was still that sheltered 15/16 year old with a man in college getting upset because he wanted her to do something she wasn't comfortable with and she told him no. 

[formergothardite]

15 hours ago, stardust said:

..I wanted no part in this conversation. If I reacted to any of the posts it was entirely accidental. 

Spoiler

 In a thread about downvotes I mentioned one of my fears is accidentally liking something horrible everyone thinking the worst of me.

[Botkinetti]

When I was a fairly new poster , in a thread I found sad and upsetting, I wanted to hit the “ I agree “ reaction but instead hit the laughing one. I was mortified and had no idea how to correct it so I didn’t appear to be enjoying someone else’s pain. Even though I knew we didn’t have to explain our reactions I still did and someone was kind enough to tell me how to change it.

[nausicaa]

9 hours ago, Rachel333 said:

I think the ugly beliefs she demonstrated are real.

Yes, and sadly all too common. I can't believe how many otherwise educated people still believe that a girl's appearance dictates her preparedness for sexual activity on some level, or even is some form of responsibility for the advances made to her. It's so deeply misogynistic and dehumanizing, it immediately spins me into a rage.

It still shocks me how many times I will see comments like this on social media, and not just from trolls. I was watching a dance video online and some commenters were pointing out how hot one of the dancers was, and someone corrected them that the girl was only thirteen. A top commenter very casually stated, "She's got breasts out to here. She's a woman."

And a woman I babysat for was talking once about issues on her sixth-grader's school bus, saying the rumor at school was that a seventh-grade girl gave her eighteen year boyfriend oral sex. The woman, an educated, liberal, non-religious person, said basically, "You should see what she looks like. She definitely could have done that." I still regret standing there in shock and not tearing her a new one for blaming a fucking twelve year old child because she what, had developed young? Wore short shorts?

Anyway. I got my first "Fuck You" reaction yesterday. (Two actually). I'm actually pretty proud of which post it was on. Always assumed it'd be about something like proper napkin folding or addressing invitations correctly. 

[Carm_88]

Wow. This is pretty unsettling to say the least. I've seen 20+ year old men date teenaged girls. At worst, it means sexual coercion and pushing said girl into areas that she is not ready to go. At best, it's a mostly immature 20+ year old who eventually gets left behind by the girl. It doesn't often work. 4 years may not be a big deal in your 30s but even 21 and 25 year olds are at different stages of life and maturity. 

Josie is beautiful, that doesn't mean that Kelton is entitled to her or that because of her beauty she should have been pushed into a relationship that she was not ready for. 

[iheartjnames]

I kinda throw the whole bullshit flag on Kelton's whole post.  I have friends in a church that believes in the courtship thing and are not nearly as strict as the Bates, there is a whole lotta talking that goes on between the parents, Kelton  just didn't want to believe that Josie didn't want him and his dad and the Bates parents made that decision, if Kelton didn't understand about Josie being too young for a relationship then Gil would have stepped in. In my understanding that's the point of "the courtship model' the dad does the heavy lifting.  After I read Kelton's story, I wanted to read Josie's perspective. 

[TatiFish9]

@Naughty&nice not sure if I agree with everything you've said, but I am stopping in to say that there are several people who agree with you but have been around long enough to know not to jump into this shitshow. 

Also, if for whatever reason, you decide to stick around, I have a better way for you to have fun. Today, write down the screennames of all the posters who have disagreed with you especially the ones who became unnecessarily petty, combative or have admittedly attempted to beat you into the submission of what they feel to be board culture but is actually a form of online bullying. In October of this year, check back through the Josie  and Bates threads to see how many of those posters are commenting on her wedding hair, dress, their honeymoon and other things going on with this couple. Then you will understand why smart people have decided not to enter this "convo" and you can chuckle to yourself about how much time you wasted trying to convince people who will follow this couple despite the

red flags

. 

I have no idea if Josie and Kelton are right for one another. But if they aren't it will probably have little to do with his Josie Bates approved Our Story and more to do with the fact that both of these young adults were too inexperienced to take on something as major as marriage. 

Kudos and godspeed

[AliceInFundyland]

@TatiFish9 You have a skewed perception, in my mind. I’ll let them speak for themselves but I am pretty damn sure that the main people arguing with her are NOT the ones who come back chatting about wedding dresses and such. They are pretty consistent about it. Not fans.

Some of the rest of us (and I might even include myself here) are more flexible. I threw the fish at her because she was behaving like an ass. I know you don’t always agree with everyone about the Bates. You’re entitled. But you’re civilized about it. 

 

[Naughty&nice]

54 minutes ago, TatiFish9 said:

@Naughty&nice not sure if I agree with everything you've said, but I am stopping in to say that there are several people who agree with you but have been around long enough to know not to jump into this shitshow. 

Thanks for your encouragement.  I had no idea what i was getting into, but once it started Im not inclined to let intellectual dishonesty (changing facts, making things up & bullying)  run me off. There seem to be a group of senior member “sharks” (for lack of a better term)  who swoop in &  bite the heads off  people with opinions not in line with their groupthink  & make it their job to bully all of the rest of you into submission.  When i said i came for fun, i just meant good intellectual debate which i enjoy. (Usually)  

As for the original subject - I simply dont have a problem with their age difference or Kelton’s feelings after they broke up.  Plus i actually think Josie has her act together & now at 19  can tell if Kelton was the jerk these other posters are describing.

I hate  hypocrisy in all its forms but i am not a Christian basher. Everyone has a  right to whatever religious beliefs they choose.  The Bates girls are beautiful & interesting.  I’m just sad that their parents wont let them grow up & lead normal adult lives.   

Again, thank you for demonstrating that there are some reasonable & kind people on this board.

[nelliebelle1197]

48 minutes ago, TatiFish9 said:

@Naughty&nice not sure if I agree with everything you've said, but I am stopping in to say that there are several people who agree with you but have been around long enough to know not to jump into this shitshow. 

Also, if for whatever reason, you decide to stick around, I have a better way for you to have fun. Today, write down the screennames of all the posters who have disagreed with you especially the ones who became unnecessarily petty, combative or have admittedly attempted to beat you into the submission of what they feel to be board culture but is actually a form of online bullying. In October of this year, check back through the Josie  and Bates threads to see how many of those posters are commenting on her wedding hair, dress, their honeymoon and other things going on with this couple. Then you will understand why smart people have decided not to enter this "convo" and you can chuckle to yourself about how much time you wasted trying to convince people who will follow this couple despite the

. 

I have no idea if Josie and Kelton are right for one another. But if they aren't it will probably have little to do with his Josie Bates approved Our Story and more to do with the fact that both of these young adults were too inexperienced to take on something as major as marriage. 

Kudos and godspeed

That has to be one of the most stupid comments I have ever read on here. And I have read a lot. I can assure you that myself, @Palimpsest, @formergothardite, @AliceInFundyland @nausicaa @Rachel333and most of the rest of us won't be cooing over her wedding dress. We will be PM'ing each other about people like you who are cooing over a wedding dress and buying into Gil & Kelly's manipulation. Truth.

[Carm_88]

12 minutes ago, Naughty&nice said:

I simply dont have a problem with their age difference or Kelton’s feelings after they broke up.  Plus i actually think Josie has her act together & now at 19  can tell if Kelton was the jerk these other posters are describing.

19 is very young. I also wouldn't assume that a very sheltered 19 year old would have any sense of good guy or bad guy. See Anna Keller Duggar for example. She married Josh at 20. 

That was the year I hit the legal drinking age. Oh was I ever dumb. I have a hangover just thinking about it. 

[Rachel333]

31 minutes ago, nelliebelle1197 said:

That has to be one of the most stupid comments I have ever read on here. And I have read a lot. I can assure you that myself, @Palimpsest, @formergothardite, @AliceInFundyland @nausicaa @Rachel333and most of the rest of us won't be cooing over her wedding dress. We will be PM'ing each other about people like you who are cooing over a wedding dress and buying into Gil & Kelly's manipulation. Truth.

I personally have made no comments about any Bates wedding dresses that I can recall and doubt I'll be cooing over Josie's wedding dress. I don't even really follow the Bates family except for skimming through the threads here once every few weeks or so. I happened to stop by this thread and joined the conversation because I was disturbed by what I read.

If this is normal for the Bates threads then I totally understand now why commenters talk about being frustrated by Bates fans on FJ.

[llucie]

Personally i dont think discussing wedding dresses is conflicting to discussing whatever they post on their blogs or social media. Isnt this a forum for snark on all things fundie? that surely include wedding dresses! If i like the dress i would say so, the same as if i dont like it.

[Ali]

I thought that arguing that Kelton's behavior was okay because Josie looked older was disgusting. No one would have faulted him for being attracted to her before he knew her age if he had chosen to back off peacefully after he found out her age.

This board is much friendlier than it used to be. I was afraid to post when I first joined and I like it much better now. Most of the board has little tolerance for Bates fans. It is the opposite of the purpose of this board.

The Bates family is very dull compared with other families we snark on. For example, just today Jill Rodrigues provided a goldmine of material. I am still laughing about her being persecuted because her kids got kicked out of a swimming pool for wearing street clothes (denim) and heavy make-up. Oh, excuse me...it was a touch of feminine make-up and jewelry.

[nelliebelle1197]

10 minutes ago, Ali said:

I thought that arguing that Kelton's behavior was okay because Josie looked older was disgusting. No one would have faulted him for being attracted to her before he knew her age if he had chosen to back off peacefully after he found out her age.

This board is much friendlier than it used to be. I was afraid to post when I first joined and I like it much better now. Most of the board has little tolerance for Bates fans. It is the opposite of the purpose of this board.

The Bates family is very dull compared with other families we snark on. For example, just today Jill Rodrigues provided a goldmine of material. I am still laughing about her being persecuted because her kids got kicked out of a swimming pool for wearing street clothes (denim) and heavy make-up. Oh, excuse me...it was a touch of feminine make-up and jewelry.

I am trying to get into one of the FB groups that has the screenshots. Let me know if you get them!

[Hisey]

 

7 hours ago, TatiFish9 said:

In October of this year, check back through the Josie  and Bates threads to see how many of those posters are commenting on her wedding hair, dress, their honeymoon and other things going on with this couple. Then you will understand why smart people have decided not to enter this "convo" . . .

You can search through my old posts. I've been on FJ for years, but I have never commented about any bride's hair, dress or makeup. I find the subject boring. I wasn't even interested in my *own* hair, dress and makeup when I married. I don't understand those who are interested, but to each his own.

With that said, why does one thing negate the other? You can disapprove of Kelton's behavior and still have an interest in Josie's clothes. I don't get the point.  Makes no sense, actually. 

I don't know why you think Josie has her "act together."  All we really know about Josie is 

1. she is good looking

2. she is starting to work as a hairdresser

Which of these things indicate that she has her act together? Which one tells you that she would know if Kelton was a jerk?

[SeekingAdventure]

Wow, this has been quite a ride.

Tbh, I used to think their story was (sort of) cute. That was the story we were told before I read the story on their wedding website. Them meeting, her being to young and a couple of years later, they get back in touch, without him screaming at a random girl he barely knows that she's his best friend. Jeeez...

That was just.. let's say, rough. I actually have no idea how they let that be put on there, someone must've thought that it doesn't reflect well on anyone?!

 

 

The age difference really confuses me too. They met when she was 15, and he was 19/20, and they reconnected when he was done with college? she just turned 19 (i think so, I don't follow the bates that much), and they're about to get married, so they reconnected a lot earlier than 4 years later right? 

Again, I think if the story had been written another way, he would've gotten way less shit for it, let's say: we met when I was 19 and she was 15, I thought she was pretty and we got along well, we got to know each other and then she and her parents said they weren't comfortable with us growing that close due to the age. Of course I was sad about it, but I waited it out and we reconnected and the rest is history,

and many would've thought it's a sweet story. The way it's written it's a hot mess.. I'm not sure if everything he wrote is exactly what happened, because IMO Duggars/Bates and all the other fundies tend to say/write things that didn't happen/won't happen like that, because they don't realise it makes them look worse than writing the truth, but still, hot mess!

[nausicaa]

3 hours ago, TatiFish9 said:

Today, write down the screennames of all the posters who have disagreed with you especially the ones who became unnecessarily petty, combative or have admittedly attempted to beat you into the submission of what they feel to be board culture but is actually a form of online bullying. In October of this year, check back through the Josie  and Bates threads to see how many of those posters are commenting on her wedding hair, dress, their honeymoon and other things going on with this couple. Then you will understand why smart people have decided not to enter this "convo" and you can chuckle to yourself about how much time you wasted trying to convince people who will follow this couple despite the

I genuinely fail to see how complimenting Josie's wedding hair or dress is somehow hypocritical in light of my pointing out that  her appearance at the age of 15 in no way reflects her readiness for an adult relationship or sexual advances. 

I am far from a Bates fan girl, but I have always owned that I am a vain bitch who is into fashion, decorating, and makeup. I've never made fun of anyone who wants to talk about any of these things. It's only when a good fashion sense is conflated with being a good person that I will take issue. 

And outright misogyny?  I will call that shit out every damn time. And in the case of misogyny that puts the blame on underage girls-- I will not be nice about it. 

[BeccaGrim]

I cannot believe a picture of Josie at 16 looking older is being used to justify the interest of a man over 18.  What if he were 40 would you be just as good with that?  

[formergothardite]

13 hours ago, TatiFish9 said:

but I am stopping in to say that there are several people who agree with you but have been around long enough to know not to jump into this shitshow. 

If there are people who are going to defend her statement that , Josie being attractive at 16 means that she can spot red flags, then yeah, they probably do want to avoid being open with their awful beliefs. What she wrote is really terrible and her excuse was that she was bored and trolling. That mindset as real world consequences. Why are you on her side?

14 hours ago, TatiFish9 said:

beat you into the submission of what they feel to be board culture but is actually a form of online bullying. 

She was the one who said she was trolling and making offensive statements because she was bored. How exactly are the people who did what FJ was made to do, which is discuss the effects of patriarchy, the bad guys?

And my contributions to wedding discussions typically is to remind people that it is okay that someone doesn't serve a full course dinner with drinking a dancing at their wedding. The world will not end if Josie has a small wedding with a reception that doesn't include a full meal. It is going to be okay folks! No reason to freak out!

And it isn't even slightly hypocritical if I say "I think the dress is pretty" when she gets married. It is possible to think that Kelton has an attitude and behavior that is concerning while also thinking a dress looks nice. I am not bound to be BEC and to criticize every aspect of her life just because I have concerns about other aspects. To claim so is just ridiculous. 

13 hours ago, Naughty&nice said:

nclined to let intellectual dishonesty (changing facts, making things up & bullying)  

What are you even talking about? You were the one who said something offensive and then said that you just wrote it all because you were trolling. 

You were the posted the picture of 16 year old Josie and said this was the reason why:

Quote

The picture was simply to show that she is a beautiful grown up looking 16 year old girl.  Not some child in pigtails who cant see danger coming.  

When called out on how offensive and dangerous what you wrote is, you made this statement.

Quote

I obviously stepped in it big time by posting her picture.  I am sorry.  It was certainly not intended the way you guys are taking it.

There is literally no way to take she is beautiful and grown up looking and so can see danger, other than the way we took it. 

You posted a picture of a 16 year old and tried to use her looks to claim looking beautiful and grown up makes her somehow able to spot danger signs. The people disagreeing with you aren't the ones using intellectual dishonesty. 

[bal maiden]

Honestly, I think this discussion is teetering from  reductio ad absurdum into an appeal to the extremes, and perhaps more than a little cherry picking of what @Naughty&nice said.

I think we can all agree that the use of a girl's appearance to justify a male's romantic/sexual misbehaviour is deplorable. But @Naughty&nice has already said that was misspoken and inappropriate. This doesn't mean that all the rest of her interpretation is wrong, nor, for that matter, that she should be utterly crucified by other board members. 'Adulthood' and 'maturity' are a socio-cultural constructions, and so of course there will be different interpretations of whether the age gap is appropriate and non-creepy. But using her comment about appearance - since retracted - to demolish the whole argument is fallacious (similarly, she has clarified what she meant by 'have a little fun', which was not trolling). Not to mention that some of the phrasing really does look a lot like bullying. Do you really want to exist in an echo-chamber, where everyone on this board has entirely the same interpretation as you? Disagreement is a means by which to hone our own opinions, not something to be vigorously stamped upon. Pages and pages of 'yes, I agree' are pretty dull...

[JordynDarby5]

2 hours ago, nausicaa said:

I genuinely fail to see how complimenting Josie's wedding hair or dress is somehow hypocritical in light of my pointing out that  her appearance at the age of 15 in no way reflects her readiness for an adult relationship or sexual advances. 

I am far from a Bates fan girl, but I have always owned that I am a vain bitch who is into fashion, decorating, and makeup. I've never made fun of anyone who wants to talk about any of these things. It's only when a good fashion sense is conflated with being a good person that I will take issue. 

And outright misogyny?  I will call that shit out every damn time. And in the case of misogyny that puts the blame on underage girls-- I will not be nice about it. 

So do I. I have complimented Bates and Duggar girls on their wedding dresses and ranked them along with their bridesmaids dresses.  I find their beliefs disgusting and they need to call out. Calling out misogyny needs to happen every time it happen. Its disgusting and allows them to get away with their disgusting behavior. And blaming underage girls needs to stop. That crap is always being used to justify grown men getting away with doing disgusting crap. When is that crap going to stop? Yes, men can help it. Yes it is their fault.  Yes, they do have a choice. To listen when a woman says no. To realize a girl under eighteen as underage and leave her alone. Women don't have to say yes. They can say no. They can turn down relationships. Men don't have a right to women. We're not their property. Women are human beings with a right to their own lives, their own choices and can do what they want.  

[Palimpsest]

5 hours ago, bal maiden said:

Honestly, I think this discussion is teetering from  reductio ad absurdum into an appeal to the extremes, and perhaps more than a little cherry picking of what @Naughty&nice said.

I think we can all agree that the use of a girl's appearance to justify a male's romantic/sexual misbehaviour is deplorable. But @Naughty&nice has already said that was misspoken and inappropriate. This doesn't mean that all the rest of her interpretation is wrong, nor, for that matter, that she should be utterly crucified by other board members. 'Adulthood' and 'maturity' are a socio-cultural constructions, and so of course there will be different interpretations of whether the age gap is appropriate and non-creepy. But using her comment about appearance - since retracted - to demolish the whole argument is fallacious (similarly, she has clarified what she meant by 'have a little fun', which was not trolling). Not to mention that some of the phrasing really does look a lot like bullying. Do you really want to exist in an echo-chamber, where everyone on this board has entirely the same interpretation as you? Disagreement is a means by which to hone our own opinions, not something to be vigorously stamped upon. Pages and pages of 'yes, I agree' are pretty dull...

Echo-chambers are boring, that is true.  However, some things should be rigorously stamped on.  

I think you are being rather naive and indulging in more than a little hyperbole.  No-one has been "utterly crucified."  A new poster was called out for comments that many people indeed found inappropriate and deplorable.  Whether they put their foot in it with their first post, and then dug their hole deeper by getting more aggressive, is debatable.  However, I call out bad behavior when I see it.  Perhaps you should look more critically at some of that person's posts.

You may have missed it, but the Naughty@nice person deleted the post where they made it clear that "having a little fun" was posting deliberately argumentative posts on an internet forum to encourage dissent.  That is basically the definition of trolling. 

That person then retracted temporarily, came back with other deplorable arguments, and made it very clear what they were doing.  The choice of screen name also makes it rather too obvious.  Sometimes getting tough is necessary.

9 hours ago, SeekingAdventure said:

Tbh, I used to think their story was (sort of) cute. That was the story we were told before I read the story on their wedding website. Them meeting, her being to young and a couple of years later, they get back in touch, without him screaming at a random girl he barely knows that she's his best friend. Jeeez...

That was just.. let's say, rough. I actually have no idea how they let that be put on there, someone must've thought that it doesn't reflect well on anyone?!

Exactly.  The way that story was written made the whole thing sound really dreadful.  And that was my original point on the last thread.  Is Kelton so tone deaf that he doesn't understand why people will have negative reactions?  Did Gil and Kelly see that and think it was cute and romantic?  And we have no idea what Josie thought or whether she approved that message.  The chances are that she won't disagree with the person to whom Gil is about to transfer authority in a couple of months.   The penis rules within this particular belief system.

FTR, I don't remember the last time I discussed a Duggar or Bates wedding dress.  They all blur together in my mind.