Josie and Kelton 2: Kelton Gets His Happily Ever After

[formergothardite]

Does anyone really think they would be doing these over the top courtship proposals and engagements if they were still living in poverty without reality television money? I'm sure the couple picks what they want to do, but UP and TLC don't want Arby's proposals. 

 

[Ivycoveredtower]

2 minutes ago, formergothardite said:

Does anyone really think they would be doing these over the top courtship proposals and engagements if they were still living in poverty without reality television money? I'm sure the couple picks what they want to do, but UP and TLC don't want Arby's proposals. 

 

I don't know Zach took Whitney to FL and did a whole thing on the beach and that wasn't taped for a show at all. I know Erin's carriage proposal was taped for 19kac so I'm not sure how much money played into that one and I'm not sure how John proposed to Alyssa. 

[formergothardite]

That is true. Zach and his parents flew down to Florida with him and Whitney to go to Disney, see dolphins and go to the beach. Zach seems to have paid for it himself since Kelly talks about him getting discounted tickets. 

Maybe they would do this over the top stuff without reality tv, but I bet UP pushes it. Pretty young people getting married makes good television. 

[Palimpsest]

4 hours ago, Naughty&nice said:

Do you think is is wrong for a 16 year old to talk to a 19 year old?  Haven't all of the Bates girls married older guys?

She was 16 when they started talking - not an adult & not a child.  Its a tough age.  If we were talking about anything remotely physical i would be seriously disgusted just like you.

Talk to, be friendly with, perhaps even date, so long as it is approved by the minor's parents and the 16 year-old is not pressured into doing anything they don't want due to the age gap.  It is a big age gap.  I think most conscientious parents would take a second look at a teenage boy who fixes on a girl three or four years younger.  And Kelton fixed on her.  He makes that clear.

And stop trying to minimize the age gap.  This was a 15 year old and a 19 year old at the supposed  initial "we think we are best friends" stage.  Josie was born on August 4th, 1999 and Kelton on July 4th, 1995.  

We aren't the only people to find the four year age gap for teenagers a bit odd.  Apparently the Bates parents agreed with us, to say nothing of the state of Tennessee.

Quote

What is the Tennessee Age of Consent?

The Tennessee Age of Consent is 18 years old. In the United States, the age of consent is the minimum age at which an individual is considered legally old enough to consent to participation in sexual activity. Individuals aged 17 or younger in Tennessee are not legally able to consent to sexual activity, and such activity may result in prosecution for statutory rape.

Tennessee statutory rape law is violated when a person has consensual sexual intercourse with an individual under age 18. A close in age exemption allows teens ages 13-18 to consent to partners less than 4 years older. Punishments differ depending on the ages of victim and offender.

No, I am not saying that Josie and Kelton have been sexually active.  I am saying that the 4 year age gap is important, both legally and developmentally when it comes to teenagers.

And a lot of this has to do with context.  The Bateses have made a big deal over dating with a purpose and purity.  Kelton seems to have grown up with similar Fundie beliefs.

But that is no guarantee whatsoever that purity standards will hold, especially when these Fundie boys are raised with an appalling sense of entitlement.  We can give you a long list of Fundies who have preyed on underage girls, starting with Josh Duggar and not even ending with Bill Gothard himself.  Gil Bates has every reason to know many details of these sexual assaults and rapes.  He was named in the IBLP lawsuit.  And that is just the Gothardites.  Perhaps look at Vaughn Ohlman's teachings, the Steven Sitler and Jamin Wight cases - we cover many of these cases here:  

 

  Now I know the Bateses have loosened up on their courtship rules, and probably never maintained Maxwell levels of accountability, but I'm surprised by how close Josie and Kelton got before courtship.  

From the horse's ass mouth himself:

Quote

 By this time we considered ourselves a couple and the following summer was full of so many awesome memories together. We loved going to coffee shops, picnicking, exploring Knoxville- just as long as we had plenty of quality time together.

Sounds like dating to me.  Now were they chaperoned.  

Quote

Fall 2017 I asked Josie's parents if we could move forward with courtship, and they happily agreed.

Seems rather late in the game to ask.  But they approved and Kelton and Josie got their OTT courtship photo-op in January 2018.

Quote

In the Spring I got permission from Mr. Bates to propose, and on June 19, 2018 we got engaged in the most beautiful place, 

Yeah, another photo shoot.

@formergothardite, the OTT courtship and engagement proposals have been going on for ages. I think in the gap between TLC and UP they were less lavish.

Oh, well.  Full speed ahead to the wedding, although Bill Gothard won't be invited to this one.

 

[stardust]

6 hours ago, nausicaa said:

@stardust and @Ivycoveredtower : Shame on both of you for liking that post.  Seriously. I pray that you are both just very young and really hope you are not mothers. 

Being on my water damaged iPhone, I end up accidentally liking a ton of FJ posts I've never even read. Happens to me at least 3 or 4 times a week and I have to go through them later on my laptop later to un-react to them. I don't even blink an eye when it happens as that's life with a damaged mobile. Literally scrolled through this thread last night, skimmed through the arguments before noping out lmao...I wanted no part in this conversation. If I reacted to any of the posts it was entirely accidental. 

EDIT: I had also accidentally liked a bunch of posts that completely condemned Kelton's behavior toward Josie. Proof that there was no rhyme or reason to my accidental upvotes. Went back and read the original post in question and I would never purposefully upvote anything of the sort, especially as a sexual abuse/pedophilia victim myself. I got my period at ten years old and by age eleven could easily be mistaken as for a 17-18 year old. I know what it's like to be preyed on by gross older men. 

[formergothardite]

If I remember correctly a lot of people were uncomfortable with Zach going to Whitney's work and school and making arrangements behind her back for the Florida trip. He moved her work schedule around and did something with her school schedule. 

The thing about Kelton is not only has he made it clear thinks Josie did something worthy of needing forgiveness when she wasn't comfortable having a relationship with him, Josie has also been made to feel like she needs to be grateful that he was willing to enter a relationship with her. She is grateful he jumped through hoops even though the only really big hoop seemed to be that he needed to wait till she was an adult and he was resentful for that.

They are starting a marriage with him having been fixated on her since she was around 15, he being upset for an extended amount of time when she was unwilling to do something she wasn't comfortable with, and she is being made to feel like she should just be grateful he courted her. He also got to have the experience of dating other people while she pretty much turned 18 and started back in a relationship with him. 

[byzant]

14 hours ago, Rachel333 said:

I can't believe people are disagreeing with this. It goes beyond a difference in opinion on Kelton's behavior and into some seriously disturbing implications if members here think "but she looked older" is a valid argument.

I'm not going to "move along" on this issue because it has very dangerous real world implications. Look at this case where a 27-year-old man was acquitted of the statutory rape of a 13-year-old girl because "judges in both cases decided that she had a “well-developed body” and carried herself in a way that did not reflect her age." Or the judge who sentenced a teacher who raped a 14-year-old student to just 30 days in jail partly because the judge thought the girl seemed "older than her chronological age." Or this one where a man was acquitted of rape because the judge thought the girl looked older. There are so many of these cases.

A girl looking mature does not mean she is mature, and saying her appearance matters is a horrible argument.

Absolutely I was my adult height and size at 11. But I still played with my teddy bears and believed in santa.(late developer!) . The idea that a sheltered child by virtue of being pretty is fair game for an adult college student is abhorent. 

[nelliebelle1197]

2 hours ago, Ivycoveredtower said:

you're probably right that it is some type of way to boost ratings but I Have to point out that it's up not TLC. Micheal went to DC for her proposal. Tori and Bobby went into the mountains I believe the Bates do tend to go over the top with both courtships and poposal's then the Duggars well besides Jinger who got to go to new york. 

It is not up to TLC. It is up to UP.

1 hour ago, formergothardite said:

Does anyone really think they would be doing these over the top courtship proposals and engagements if they were still living in poverty without reality television money? I'm sure the couple picks what they want to do, but UP and TLC don't want Arby's proposals. 

 

No, of course not. These "proposals" are staged, bought and paid for. Anyone who believes anything else is laughably naive or gullible.

[LawsonBatesEgo]

The problem is not that Kelton thought she was pretty - he is not the first guy to think a girl is pretty and then learn she is too young to enter a relationship with him. He will not be the first person to think a girl is still pretty even after learning she is too young. Provided he keeps that to himself, it’s not that weird. 

The problem is how he thought he was entitled to her time and attention because he liked her and thought she was pretty and therefore wanted to date her. It is a problem at any age - no one is entitled to a woman’s time or attention - but it is especially problematic  with a minor. 

[Naughty&nice]

So let me see if I can recap what you three are saying.

Its not that he started talking to her or texting her (which both she & her parents must have been okay with at first) despite the big age difference.  Its that he was hurt & offended & had to "forgive" her later that gives you all "red flags".  He didn't stalk her or keep bothering her after she called it quits but he did have the male audacity to "get his feelings hurt", pine for her &  "find her hard to get over".  You keep saying he wouldn't take no for an answer, but he obviously did.

I'm just not getting it.  He sounds immature & like this was probably his first relationship/friendship with a girl.  Aren't all these fundies immature in their relationships with the opposite sex since they aren't really allowed to have any until they are ready to marry?  It just seems like the amount of vitriol over this story is over the top.  He's a "self-righteous nasty little pig".  He "should be ashamed of himself" He's a "stalker", a "creeper", "dangerous", "bitter", "manipulative, a "complete narcissist". "Free Josie"

I also find it funny that some of you feel a need to keep reminding those of us that don't agree with your conclusions that this is not a Bates Fansite.  I am not a Bates Fan or a Fundie fan.  I just think a person would have to read a lot into this boys story to turn him into the devil.

Im kinda done with this conversation at this point.  You guys are starting to repeat yourselves a lot. Please feel free to continue the boy bashing.  Why do I even care?

[Rachel333]

Personally I do have a problem with a 16-year-old dating a 20-year-old (I keep seeing 16 and 19, but they were never 16 and 19--they were, however, 15 and 20 for a month). I don't think people who enter those relationships are terrible or that those relationships can never work out, but I just don't think it's a good idea. The same age gap a few years later is no big deal, but 16 is so young and there's a huge difference between 16 and 20.

I guess I'm also thinking about this from the perspective of currently living with some fairly sheltered, homeschooled 16-year-old girls. In some ways they're very mature (they've got to be the most responsible teenagers I've known, certainly much more than I was at that age) but they are still so, so young and the idea of a 20-year-old man thinking he's entitled to date them is awful to me.

[formergothardite]

 

2 hours ago, Naughty&nice said:

Its that he was hurt & offended & had to "forgive" her later that gives you all "red flags". 

Yes, it is a red flag that he felt he had to forgive her for refusing to do something he wanted her to do because she wasn't comfortable with doing it. And it is a red flag that he shows no indication that he realizes that that attitude is bad. He got offended that a 16 year old didn't want to be his friend. He dwelled on it for years and then decided he wanted a woman who is exactly like a sheltered 16 year old. Those are all big red flags. 

[Rachel333]

Yeah, it's not just how he acted then that's the problem, it's also that he still sees no problem with his own behavior except that he needed to "forgive" Josie and her parents. Even if he was immature at 20 and it was his first relationship with a girl, that's not still true now and yet he shows no signs of growth.

[Naughty&nice]

.

[nausicaa]

4 hours ago, stardust said:

Being on my water damaged iPhone, I end up accidentally liking a ton of FJ posts I've never even read. Happens to me at least 3 or 4 times a week and I have to go through them later on my laptop later to un-react to them. I don't even blink an eye when it happens as that's life with a damaged mobile. Literally scrolled through this thread last night, skimmed through the arguments before noping out lmao...I wanted no part in this conversation. If I reacted to any of the posts it was entirely accidental. 

EDIT: I had also accidentally liked a bunch of posts that completely condemned Kelton's behavior toward Josie. Proof that there was no rhyme or reason to my accidental upvotes. Went back and read the original post in question and I would never purposefully upvote anything of the sort, especially as a sexual abuse/pedophilia victim myself. I got my period at ten years old and by age eleven could easily be mistaken as for a 17-18 year old. I know what it's like to be preyed on by gross older men. 

I'm sorry for the confusion then, especially in light of your experience as a child. 

[Hisey]

A healthy guy would include some of Josie's thoughts and feelings into "Our Story." Like this:

"Josie loved it when we went to visit museums together."

"I remember that Josie did not like visiting my college buddies--but she loved visiting my sisters."

"Since Josie loved hiking, we went to the mountains fairly often."

Another concern--Kelton mentions that he started texting her without getting an official OK from Josie or her family. He feels he might have a chance again, so he "takes a chance" and texts her. Not very respectful of Gil and Kelly! I'd be pissed if I told a boy to stay away from my young daughter, and after a year he starts texting her again. I mean, it all worked out (presumably), but it sort of feels like he "forgot" what they'd said.

Quote

 Josie and I talked cordially, trying to play it cool, even though we both still liked each other very much. When driving away, I told my sister that I thought Josie still liked me. I took a chance at texting her and that conversation kept on and on till the end of the semester.

It'd be better if he said, "Josie was now 17, so I asked her and Mr. Bates if it would be OK to resume our friendship. Did Josie feel ready now? Was Mr. Bates on board?"

All around, it just shows poor character. She could do better. Too bad she's too young and sheltered to know that.

[formergothardite]

She could do better but sadly she has been made to feel like she should be grateful for his poor reaction to her completely reasonable request to end their friendship.

[Hisey]

31 minutes ago, formergothardite said:

She could do better but sadly she has been made to feel like she should be grateful for his poor reaction to her completely reasonable request to end their friendship.

I really feel sorry for her, since divorce is considered so terrible, she is going to be bound to a decision she made at 18

[Palimpsest]

3 hours ago, Naughty&nice said:

So let me see if I can recap what you three are saying.

What three?  It seems to me that you are getting negative feedback from way more than three.  I think only three (or 4) people are on your side - and that should give you pause for thought.

Quote

Its not that he started talking to her or texting her (which both she & her parents must have been okay with at first) despite the big age difference. 

Or were they?  

Quote

Its that he was hurt & offended & had to "forgive" her later that gives you all "red flags". 

Yep.  That really does send red flags.  Entitlement.

Quote

He didn't stalk her or keep bothering her after she called it quits but he did have the male audacity to "get his feelings hurt", pine for her &  "find her hard to get over".  You keep saying he wouldn't take no for an answer, but he obviously did.

Well, only a true psychopath wouldn't have backed off a minor child.  When told to do so by her parents, and told to do so by the child herself.  No, she did not owe him an explanation.  He had already been given that - loud and clear.  She was too young.

Quote

I'm just not getting it.  He sounds immature & like this was probably his first relationship/friendship with a girl. 

Immature, entitled, and completely unaware of normal boundaries.

Quote

Aren't all these fundies immature in their relationships with the opposite sex since they aren't really allowed to have any until they are ready to marry? 

Yes.  And a lot of these fundies think that they are entitled to be tempted by attractive girls.  And the girls are programmed to submit to males.  Get with the fucking program!

Quote

I also find it funny that some of you feel a need to keep reminding those of us that don't agree with your conclusions that this is not a Bates Fansite.  I am not a Bates Fan or a Fundie fan.  I just think a person would have to read a lot into this boys story to turn him into the devil.

I don't think he is the devil.  I think he is a mixed up Fundie kid.  Programmed to expect women to bow down to his penis.

And mixed up Fundie kids can do a hell of a lot of damage.  See Josh Duggar.  And many others.

Quote

Im kinda done with this conversation at this point.  You guys are starting to repeat yourselves a lot. Please feel free to continue the boy bashing.  Why do I even care?

OK.  Don't let the door hit you on the way out.  And are you sure you are not Kelton?  You lack even basic understanding of the issues.

However, other people have had bad entries into FJ.  Perhaps read more, educate yourself more, and think about what you say more, and you too could evolve into a decent member of our community.

We don't like ignoramuses who refuse to learn here though, so if you chose to exit - I will not be at all heartbroken.

[Naughty&nice]

38 minutes ago, Palimpsest said:

We don't like ignoramuses who refuse to learn here though, so if you chose to exit - I will not be at all heartbroken.

Bravo!  when you start to lose an argument (or someone dares have a different opinion) be sure to start calling people names & bullying everyone who does not agree with you. Maybe soon everyone with whom you argue  will shut up & leave & you can sit around talking to yourself.  You are obviously the only one whose opinion matters anyway.

 

[stardust]

1 hour ago, nausicaa said:

I'm sorry for the confusion then, especially in light of your experience as a child. 

No worries! You weren't to know 

[Palimpsest]

29 minutes ago, Naughty&nice said:

Bravo!  when you start to lose an argument (or someone dares have a different opinion) be sure to start calling people names & bullying everyone who does not agree with you. Maybe soon everyone with whom you argue  will shut up & leave & you can sit around talking to yourself.  You are obviously the only one whose opinion matters anyway.

 

No, little one.  You have lost the argument.  Resoundingly so.  Overwhelmingly so.  And made yourself look really bad to boot.

I just pointed it out.  I'm sorry that hurt.

[Naughty&nice]

2 minutes ago, Palimpsest said:

No, little one.  You have lost the argument.  Resoundingly so.  Overwhelmingly so.  And made yourself look really bad to boot.

I just pointed it out.  I'm sorry that hurt.

I like you. You’re cute. You obviously spend alot of time on boards like this one. I was just having a boring Monday & decided to have some fun. I really think i will let you have the last word since it seems very important to you. Go for it!

[AliceInFundyland]

7 minutes ago, Naughty&nice said:

I like you. You’re cute. You obviously spend alot of time on boards like this one. I was just having a boring Monday & decided to have some fun. I really think i will let you have the last word since it seems very important to you. Go for it!

Thank you.

[nelliebelle1197]

44 minutes ago, Naughty&nice said:

Bravo!  when you start to lose an argument (or someone dares have a different opinion) be sure to start calling people names & bullying everyone who does not agree with you. Maybe soon everyone with whom you argue  will shut up & leave & you can sit around talking to yourself.  You are obviously the only one whose opinion matters anyway.

 

No one agrees with you except a couple or three Bates fangirls, one of whom is well known to flip out whenever someone criticizes the Bates, although she appears to be perfectly reasonable in other threads. Therefore, other than three other outliers, basically everyone here thinks the relationship is creepy, you are wrong and your opinion is not "different" but rather sick. So you attack long-term members who know the culture and understand this place exists, when you have been here 10 minutes and seem to have no clue. You posted a picture of child to prove a point. You can't walk that one back. You did not win any argument. It appears to be rather the opposite. But dig in, whine and downvote everyone, It appears it's all you got.