Josie and Kelton 2: Kelton Gets His Happily Ever After

[TeaELSee]

1 hour ago, TatiFish9 said:

I didn't see that one.  So cool of Kelly. Kind of funny, too.  Was it on United Bates of America or Bringing up Bates? Kelly seems really close to Erin. She often mentions that Erin is most like her. Gil also commented that Kelly and Erin 

I just looked it up on Amazon, it was the United Bates.

[Rachel333]

1 hour ago, Hisey said:

The fact that she is beautiful doesn't mean anything. Plenty of beautiful girls are also very innocent, and plenty have no desire for a relationship with an older boy. 

Are you saying that a beautiful girl can't be molested by an older boy? Do you mean a beautiful girl is better able to "see danger coming" by virtue of her looks? You mean that if she's pretty, it's not molestation--but it would be with an awkward, pigtailed 16-year old? Huh?

The fact that a guy could like her means. . . it's OK for him to cross lines and boundaries? You mean she asked for him to behave badly, because she is cute?

What are you saying, exactly?

Josie's looks say nothing about how she felt inside. Her looks say nothing about her desire to engage with Kelton. 

I can't believe people are disagreeing with this. It goes beyond a difference in opinion on Kelton's behavior and into some seriously disturbing implications if members here think "but she looked older" is a valid argument.

I'm not going to "move along" on this issue because it has very dangerous real world implications. Look at this case where a 27-year-old man was acquitted of the statutory rape of a 13-year-old girl because "judges in both cases decided that she had a “well-developed body” and carried herself in a way that did not reflect her age." Or the judge who sentenced a teacher who raped a 14-year-old student to just 30 days in jail partly because the judge thought the girl seemed "older than her chronological age." Or this one where a man was acquitted of rape because the judge thought the girl looked older. There are so many of these cases.

A girl looking mature does not mean she is mature, and saying her appearance matters is a horrible argument.

[Hisey]

1 hour ago, Rachel333 said:

Wow, the fact that she looked grown up should have absolutely no bearing here. Forget about Josie and Kelton, I'm beyond disgusted that someone is seriously using that argument here at all. Even if a girl looks like an adult a man should back off once he finds out her age. It does not matter what a child looks like!

Seriously, even those of you who see nothing wrong with Kelton's behavior should be able to see that it is incredibly inappropriate to use a girl's appearance as proof that it would be okay for her to be in a relationship with an adult man. You shouldn't support that kind of rhetoric just because the poster agrees with you overall.

I know. It's gross. 

The misogyny with this line of thinking is amazing. So far, 15-year old Josie has been blamed so often, for so much:

It was her fault Kelton was attracted to her as a minor, because she "looked so grown up." (look at her picture, it's proof!)

It was her fault for not giving Kelton an "long enough" explanation for why she wanted to stop texting him. (because she owed him one, you know)

It was her fault he "didn't understand" when she said she didn't want to date him. (it was her job to explain and explain till he did)

It was her fault for -- at 15 -- not being mature and articulate enough to soothe a 19-year old's feelings (because of course, if she'd gotten the words right, he'd have been OK with the whole thing).

 

[LaParisienne]

1 hour ago, Hisey said:

I know. It's gross. 

The misogyny with this line of thinking is amazing. So far, 15-year old Josie has been blamed so often, for so much:

It was her fault Kelton was attracted to her as a minor, because she "looked so grown up." (look at her picture, it's proof!)

It was her fault for not giving Kelton an "long enough" explanation for why she wanted to stop texting him. (because she owed him one, you know)

It was her fault he "didn't understand" when she said she didn't want to date him. (it was her job to explain and explain till he did)

It was her fault for -- at 15 -- not being mature and articulate enough to soothe a 19-year old's feelings (because of course, if she'd gotten the words right, he'd have been OK with the whole thing).

 

I insert myself in the debate, if you agree :p . I use to read but decide to participatebfr once. 

I don't think Josie has been blamed, but I don't believe Kelton has obsessive tendancies neither. What I understand from the situation is that Josie and Kelton were talking and appreciating each other until Josie put an end to it, because she has the right. The young man was heartbroken and sad because first crush and all. I mean, it's understanble, right ? And I don't think He wanted a serious relationship right away, did he ? So I may get it why He didn't undersand  like what's wrong with just being friend or just texting/talking ? I don't blame Josie but I do blame the environnement in which she lives and believes in. 

As for the photo, to me, I can see why it could be seen as a dangerous argument. Got a case in my country in which a 11 years old child got raped by a 30 year old man. The judge refused "child rape" because the girl looks and acts older. This is revolting and shocking, I couldn't agree more. However, I don't think we can compare those kind of situations to the Josie and Kelton's one. 

 

 

[Rachel333]

1 hour ago, LaParisienne said:

However, I don't think we can compare those kind of situations to the Josie and Kelton's one. 

To be clear, I think the situations are very different but I was addressing the argument itself, which I find revolting.

[LawsonBatesEgo]

8 hours ago, Naughty&nice said:

You dont understand that when she ended a 6 month friendship without explaining why, he would be hurt & offended?

You are right. He was not entitled to her friendship, time or attention, but she gave it to him for a while & then stopped.  He said (quoting here) “ I didnt understand why Josie ended what was just beginning” How is that statement not clear?  He obviously did not get any explanations.

I understand being hurt at a friendship being ended, but not to the point that he obsessed about it for years , thought she majorly wronged him, was so hung up on it that his Dad had to tell him to get the fuck over it, and was even bitter when one of his friends started dating her sister. That level of reaction over someone who was never his girlfriend deciding to stop talking to him is way too much and very unhealthy. I have been hurt by relationships and friendships being ended, but not to the extent that someone has to tell me a year later to pull my head in and get over it.

[llucie]

I think if he just said he was sad nobody would think bad of it. He was in love with someone that didnt reciprocate him, so he was sad, thats ok (being sad for years is a bit weird but makes a great love story i guess). But angry?? he had to forgive her?? thats the part that is a red flag for me.

[nelliebelle1197]

14 hours ago, Naughty&nice said:

Wow, some of you guys are amazing.  Its hard to see how you have turned a “teenage love drama” into something so dark & sinister.  I think you guys are doing some serious reading between the lines & assuming alot of things Kelton did not say.   

Lets recap Keltons sins:

1. He asked for her phone number.   Come on guys, its called texting & all the kids are doing it.  He thought she was cute (and she was drop dead gorgeous - even at 16) & he wanted to be friends.  He might have thought something could come of it someday but he did not ask to date or court her. He was headed to college & had plans for his life. Thats not creepy.

2. Hes a “ whiny, self-pitying, self-righteous, nasty, little pig.”  - all because he became friends with a girl he met at church & after alot of texting & sharing (he probably got emotionally involved pretty fast due to the fact that hes had no mother or any other woman to share anything with since he was 12 years old) Josie abruptly ended the relationship with almost no explanation?   He got his feelings hurt & ego bruised. Im pretty sure that he did not know that her parents had anything to do with her decision to stop all contact. (“I couldn't understand why Josie was ending what was just beginning”) He probably found out about the parents reservations years later when they started talking again.

3.  He couldnt take ‘no’ for an answer?  He was “obsessed”. He was “bitter and could not move on”. Seriously???  He had no understanding of why the relationship ended yet spent two years away from the girl & never tried to contact her even though they frequently ran into each other at church.  He dated other girls at college. Many other girls.  He didnt find anyone at PCC that he liked as much as her.  She was obviously his first ‘crush’.  Finding her hard to forget  makes him a “stalker”?  Wow.

4.  Hes creepy because of the age difference?  He had never dated in high school. Neither had she.  They met in a church social group.  He was never going to marry until he graduated from college. He started a friendship with a pretty girl then left for college. Even if he thought it might someday be more, how in the world is that creepy? There was no sex, no kissing, no touching & they were 500 miles apart. She would be 19 by the time he was done with school.  Im sure that he can do simple math too.

5.  He was obviously upset about the abrupt ending of their relationship. That happens to most people when there is no good explanation given. He had some hurt feelings & a bruised ego & said that he had to forgive her.  He said that if he had not forgiven, he would have missed out on the best thing that had ever happened to him. Forgiveness being a virtue that most christians espouse. 

6 He was “angry and pissed that he didnt get what he wanted and that he had to wait for her”.  Again. Misreading his post.  He didnt think he was waiting for her. She ended the friendship with very little explanation.  He liked her & was sharing alot with her & thought they were friends & she cut it off.  He was not asking for more than friendship at the time.

I think part of the problem with his post is that he is writing with perspective & not necessarilly putting every fact in chronological order.  It makes the order of events & the knowledge he had of things hard to understand. 

There is plenty to criticize out there people, not sure why any of us need to read between the lines & make stuff up.

 

Josie at 16

Uh, no one is reading between the lines. PEOPLE ARE READING HIS WORDS. And it is really disturbing you are posting her picture on here as some sort of justification for an adult's lust for a kid.

FOR THE MILLIONTH TIME:

FREE JINGER IS NOT A BATES FAN SITE. For all of you fangirls who get up in arms over criticism of fundies, well, too bad. You in the wrong place. Or be prepared to take the criticism when you fangirl over these dangerous fanatics. You are lucky you weren't here a few years ago when the old FJ crew would have had you in tears over nonsense like this.

I take all these negatives reactions and downvotes as a badge of honor! THANK YOU! I am perfectly fine with downvotes from people who idolize the Bates and Duggars. After all, pointing out the sick things they do is why I am here.

8 hours ago, Hisey said:

People say, "I don't understand" for many reasons. In this case, it seems clear he was saying "I didn't want to understand."

Funny, though, the way you keep blaming Josie for things. 

It's almost like this fangirl/boy is Kelton 

20 minutes ago, LawsonBatesEgo said:

I understand being hurt at a friendship being ended, but not to the point that he obsessed about it for years , thought she majorly wronged him, was so hung up on it that his Dad had to tell him to get the fuck over it, and was even bitter when one of his friends started dating her sister. That level of reaction over someone who was never his girlfriend deciding to stop talking to him is way too much and very unhealthy. I have been hurt by relationships and friendships being ended, but not to the extent that someone has to tell me a year later to pull my head in and get over it.

And it was a "friendship" with a girl too young to be "friends" and it was ended because she was too young, FFS.

[formergothardite]

9 hours ago, Naughty&nice said:

t) Explaining to him that she didnt want to get her heart broken would have been embarrassing so she didn’t give much explanation at all.  He was hurt.  (Have you ever dated?? This is a pretty common senario. Not getting closure when a relationship ends is painful) 

So? Even if your story is correct and she was just too embarrassed to say that she didn't want her heart broken, she didn't owe him a long explanation. She did nothing wrong. You and he apparently think she owes him a long explanation on why a young sheltered teen didn't want to be close friends with an adult in college? And it is normal for a guy in college to get to his final year and say he only wants to date women who are just like a sheltered 16 year old? Let's not try to normalize this shit. 

I have dated. I was also a sheltered 18 year old entering a secular college who had never had a guy pay her any attention and who was socially awkward. I had so many weird situations with guys at first that it is rather embarrassing. I assumed any guy who made small talk was deeply into me and was confused when it ended up they weren't or when the semester ended they moved on with their lives. But I didn't feel like these people wronged me. I realized that perhaps I was the one expecting too much out of these relationships. My first dating experiences were also strange. Creepy people look for sheltered naive young women to prey on. Luckily I had found friends who helped me see red flags. 

I also had a very close friendship that ended abruptly and with no explanation. It did hurt. Even if she never gave a explanation, from what I heard about what was going on in her life I can understand why she suddenly stopped all contact. It would have been nice to have known, but obviously I wasn't as close to her as I thought and it is okay. She didn't owe me anything. Kelton got more of an explanation than I did but even if he didn't, he should have been able to figure out on his own why a 16 year old didn't want to be best friends with a college adult. 

The whole, well she was a hot 16 year old so obviously he couldn't accept she didn't want to be his friend anymore and it was normal to feel like she wronged him, is not okay. 

This isn't a Bates fan club. FJ was made to discuss exactly these sorts of things so no, I'm not going to move on or let the conversation drop because people would rather discuss fluffy stuff about the Bates. 

[nausicaa]

11 hours ago, Naughty&nice said:

The picture was simply to show that she is a beautiful grown up looking 16 year old girl.  Not some child in pigtails who cant see danger coming.  Its not impossible to believe that a guy would find her attractive & like her. Some of you are talking like he molested her.

I was willing to listen to your points in your first post (I'm on the fence on Kelton's culpability and think this is a complicated situation and am willing to hear people out), but like others was very confused as to why you included a photo of Josie. Unfortunately, you have confirmed my biggest concern as to your motivations. 

I can't even believe I even have to type this out but: 

The appearance of a teenager has no bearing on that teenager's emotional or intellectual capacity to process things as an adult. You are ignorant of biology, psychology, and ethics if you do not understand this. The "look at how old she looks!" argument has been used by predators since time immemorial to justify engaging in sexual behavior with underage girls and I really cannot believe you would propagate that idea.

You do understand that there are ten year olds who have undergone puberty and have developed breasts and look "older." Is it okay for grown men to pursue them?

@stardust and @Ivycoveredtower : Shame on both of you for liking that post.  Seriously. I pray that you are both just very young and really hope you are not mothers. 

The "move alongs" on Rachel333's posts (Looking at you @Mim) are equally shameful. As if addressing the danger of this misogynistic thinking is the same as harping on someone's wedding choices. 

I seriously thought about blocking all three of you but have decided not to so I can keep an eye on your ignorant, self-hating sexism. Jesus fucking Christ. 

[Naughty&nice]

 

8 hours ago, Rachel333 said:

Wow, the fact that she looked grown up should have absolutely no bearing here. Forget about Josie and Kelton, I'm beyond disgusted that someone is seriously using that argument here at all. Even if a girl looks like an adult a man should back off once he finds out her age. It does not matter what a child looks like!

Seriously, even those of you who see nothing wrong with Kelton's behavior should be able to see that it is incredibly inappropriate to use a girl's appearance as proof that it would be okay for her to be in a relationship with an adult man. You shouldn't support that kind of rhetoric just because the poster agrees with you overall.

I obviously stepped in it big time by posting her picture.  I am sorry.  It was certainly not intended the way you guys are taking it.

I've explained several times that I could understand why guys would be attracted to her.  I AM NOT condoning an older guy seeking an inappropriate relationship with her because shes pretty!  I NEVER SAID "it would be okay for her to be in a relationship with an adult man".  It just doesn't sound to me like Kelton was pursuing anything but friendship.  Do you think is is wrong for a 16 year old to talk to a 19 year old?  Haven't all of the Bates girls married older guys?

She was 16 when they started talking - not an adult & not a child.  Its a tough age.  If we were talking about anything remotely physical i would be seriously disgusted just like you.

[formergothardite]

We have pages of people discussing weddings but when people are discussing how an adult felt like a young teen owed him an explanation on why she didn't want a relationship with him and how it is concerning that he was upset for years over it people want to shut it down and move back to discussing more superficial things? What exactly do people think FJ is for? This is a classic example on how patriarchy can create young men who feel like even teen girls owe them something. 

9 minutes ago, Naughty&nice said:

Do you think is is wrong for a 16 year old to talk to a 19 year old?  Haven't all of the Bates girls married older guys?

It is not appropriate for an adult in college to get upset when a teenager doesn't want to talk to him, which is what Kelton did. It is not appropriate for a guy to get to the end of his college life and decide he only wants a woman who is exactly like this sheltered 16 year old he had spent a couple months hanging out with years earlier. 

 And you said you posted the picture to show she LOOKED like a grown up 16 year old and that because she looked like a grown up 16 year old she could see danger coming. That simply isn't true. It doesn't matter what she looked like, she was still a teen being raised in a sheltered, restrictive home. The fact that she looked beautiful and grown up doesn't mean she was more capable of spotting red flags than if she looked like a child and wore pigtails. 

[nausicaa]

2 minutes ago, Naughty&nice said:

I obviously stepped in it big time by posting her picture.  I am sorry.  It was certainly not intended the way you guys are taking it.

I've explained several times that I could understand why guys would be attracted to her.  I AM NOT condoning an older guy seeking an inappropriate relationship with her because shes pretty!  I NEVER SAID "it would be okay for her to be in a relationship with an adult man".  It just doesn't sound to me like Kelton was pursuing anything but friendship.  Do you think is is wrong for a 16 year old to talk to a 19 year old?  Haven't all of the Bates girls married older guys?

She was 16 when they started talking - not an adult & not a child.  Its a tough age.  If we were talking about anything remotely physical i would be seriously disgusted just like you.

I don't think it's completely out of line for a 16 year old to talk to a 19 year old. I was in a similar relationship at 16. 

However, you didn't just state that she is attractive and you aren't surprised a 19 year old would be interested in her. 

You said (direct quote):

"The picture was simply to show that she is a beautiful grown up looking 16 year old girl.  Not some child in pigtails who cant see danger coming."

I really want you to see how that wording is straight out of the abuser playbook. 

That is conflating her appearance with her ability to manage adult sexual situations. There is so much blame placed on a teenager in your statement. Basically, whatever happens, it's her fault since she looks older than a first-grader? (Pigtails, which most girls stop wear at age six, are now our benchmark for sexual maturity in women? Fan-fucking-tastic.) And since she looks older than a first grader she should know better. 

And as has been stated, she is not even 16 in that photo. 

 

[bal maiden]

Regardless of the age difference debate, it seems like a pretty petty/inappropriate move to go into such detail about his hurt from her ditching him (or not, since they were just friends) on the website about their wedding. Is this going to be her cross to bear for the length of their marriage, just like Michelle Duggar carries the shame of bikini lawn mowing? It kind of feels like he's going to bring it up a lot as part of his 'testimony', making her feel bad over and over again. Most mature couples learn to move on from conflicts, disagreements, or separations. 

[Naughty&nice]

30 minutes ago, nausicaa said:

 

The appearance of a teenager has no bearing on that teenager's emotional or intellectual capacity to process things as an adult. You are ignorant of biology, psychology, and ethics if you do not understand this. The "look at how old she looks!" argument has been used by predators since time immemorial to justify engaging in sexual behavior with underage girls and I really cannot believe you would propagate that idea.

 

I completely agree with your statement in bold.  & had i been trying to "propogate the idea" that her looks made her fair game  for predators, you should probably stone me.  I thought this discussion was about whether a friendship between them was inappropriate or "creepy", not whether she should be having sex with him.

[Rachel333]

20 minutes ago, Naughty&nice said:

I thought this discussion was about whether a friendship between them was inappropriate or "creepy", not whether she should be having sex with him.

But how does appearance enter even into that? The discussion was never "is it okay that Kelton was initially attracted to her?" it's about how he dealt with that attraction.

[Naughty&nice]

12 minutes ago, Rachel333 said:

But how does appearance enter even into that? The discussion was never "is it okay that Kelton was initially attracted to her?" it's about how he dealt with that attraction.

Rachel333,   you are right.  But I do  think a few people here are starting with the premise that anything going on between a 16 and almost 20yearold (even a friendship) is inappropriate & therefore everything Kelton did or felt was creepy.  I just don't think that.  I have many happily married friends that met and became friends in gradeschool or highschool  and are several years apart in age.

[formergothardite]

56 minutes ago, Naughty&nice said:

  I thought this discussion was about whether a friendship between them was inappropriate or "creepy",

The statement that people disagreed with you about is this. 

Quote

The picture was simply to show that she is a beautiful grown up looking 16 year old girl.  Not some child in pigtails who cant see danger coming.  

Josie looking like a beautiful grown up 16 year old has no bearing on if she can see danger coming. None. What she looks like isn't relevant to if she can spot red flags. 

Not everyone would want their 16 year old daughter to be close friends with a guy in college. Kelton made it creepy by refusing to accept that there was a perfectly good reason she ended the friendship. Josie didn't want to be his friend she didn't owe him anything.  He spent years upset over it and decided that she did something that deserved forgiveness  He then decided that he wanted an adult woman who acted like a sheltered 16 year old girl. That is creepy. 

[Pecansforeveryone]

I am not, not, not accusing Kelton of abusing Josie. I don't think anyone is. We are acknowledging red flags which is different and absolutely necessary. Another concern is that Josie was raised up under the despicable teachings of Bill Gothard, an active predator himself. She grew up hearing that even babies and toddlers can defraud grown men. Her parents swept Bill Gothards behaviour under the rug. Her parents have fertilized potential seeds of future abuse. (Please note, I said potential, not definite.) 

[Ali]

He also surprised her showing up at her work and expected her to leave with him so that he could take her to Utah for an over the top proposal. It did not matter if she had clients scheduled later that day or not. I think that is another red flag.

[Hisey]

14 minutes ago, Ali said:

He also surprised her showing up at her work and expected her to leave with him so that he could take her to Utah for an over the top proposal. It did not matter if she had clients scheduled later that day or not. I think that is another red flag.

If that's the way it really happened, it is a red flag. But couldn't it have been a staged episode, and Josie knew what was going to happen?

After all, a "surprise" is much more exciting footage than a Josie who already knows everything. "You ready?" "Yup" "Let me get your bag" "OK, hon. What time's the flight?" That's terrible TV! 

I actually don't have a problem with a 16 and 19 year old dating. I wouldn't be thrilled if my girls did that, but there are worse things.

It's how Kelton reacted to rejection that is the issue. And it wasn't really a rejection! It was more "Wait till she's older and try then."

[Ivycoveredtower]

4 minutes ago, Hisey said:

If that's the way it really happened, it is a red flag. But couldn't it have been a staged episode, and Josie knew what was going to happen?

After all, a "surprise" is much more exciting footage than a Josie who already knows everything. "You ready?" "Yup" "Let me get your bag" "OK, hon. What time's the flight?" That's terrible TV! 

I actually don't have a problem with a 16 and 19 year old dating. I wouldn't be thrilled if my girls did that, but there are worse things.

It's how Kelton reacted to rejection that is the issue. And it wasn't really a rejection! It was more "Wait till she's older and try then."

if I'm remembering this correctly Bobby did something similar pulling Tori out of class before the proposal. 

[Hisey]

2 hours ago, Rachel333 said:

But how does appearance enter even into that? The discussion was never "is it okay that Kelton was initially attracted to her?" it's about how he dealt with that attraction.

Appearance enters into it because there are a group of posters who are wowed by Josie's looks, and who really want this to be a fairy tale, and who don't like anyone to burst their bubble.

A very young, beautiful girl is a target.  It's even worse in fundie circles. Josie's beauty actually makes her more vulnerable. Everyone wants something from her. 

Kelton wants to date her, long before she's ready. TLC wants to make a lot of money off her wedding (I don't recall them flying any of the other couples to a remote location for a courtship proposal). Her parents want the show to be a success and they know that a pretty bride will attract more viewers. Her fans want clothing tips, a romantic love story, a person to "admire", even though they don't really know her. She'd be better off if she were less beautiful, and able to grow into adulthood without so much attention.

2 minutes ago, Ivycoveredtower said:

if I'm remembering this correctly Bobby did something similar pulling Tori out of class before the proposal. 

It's probably a TLC tactic, to make better TV.

[formergothardite]

Reality television isn't even slightly real and the Bates are about as fake as the Kardashians on their show and social media, so there is a good chance she knew about the trip and the whole thing was staged for the show. 

The problem with Kelton isn't that he found a 16 year old attractive, it was that he couldn't accept that she was uncomfortable with continuing their friendship and reacted by blaming her and holding onto the idea that she wronged him for way too long. This shows how he reacts when Josie isn't comfortable with something he wants and doesn't give him his way, which is a red flag. It would have been a red flag if they were the same age, it is really one with the fact that he was an adult in college and she was a 16 year old. 

Josie didn't owe him a thing, but he did have an explanation. And then there is that he dated in college and got to the end of his college years unhappy that none of the women his age behaved like a sheltered 16 year old. That is concerning. 

 

[Ivycoveredtower]

8 minutes ago, Hisey said:

Appearance enters into it because there are a group of posters who are wowed by Josie's looks, and who really want this to be a fairy tale, and who don't like anyone to burst their bubble.

A very young, beautiful girl is a target.  It's even worse in fundie circles. Josie's beauty actually makes her more vulnerable. Everyone wants something from her. 

Kelton wants to date her, long before she's ready. TLC wants to make a lot of money off her wedding (I don't recall them flying any of the other couples to a remote location for a courtship proposal). Her parents want the show to be a success and they know that a pretty bride will attract more viewers. Her fans want clothing tips, a romantic love story, a person to "admire", even though they don't really know her. She'd be better off if she were less beautiful, and able to grow into adulthood without so much attention.

It's probably a TLC tactic, to make better TV.

you're probably right that it is some type of way to boost ratings but I Have to point out that it's up not TLC. Micheal went to DC for her proposal. Tori and Bobby went into the mountains I believe the Bates do tend to go over the top with both courtships and poposal's then the Duggars well besides Jinger who got to go to new york.