CNN: Why Men are In Trouble

[tehgoobster]

http://www.cnn.com/2011/10/04/opinion/b ... index.html

Read the highest rated comments. Yikes! :shock:

As an example of what some of them are saying, take a look at this:

As a 26-year old man, I realize that the purpose in my life it to provide for my (potential) family. The issue that I am having is that I have never met a woman that considers being a good wife and mother to be important. Think about that for a second. Our women today are far more concerned with their careers than they are about raising their own children.

[fundyfunland]

Oh gross! Yes, it's always women's fault. Never could it be, that the men who are having problems are just incapable of sharing roles in equal relationships. That would be too much to ask.

[tehgoobster]

I really can't stand the whole battle of the sexes thing. I don't like it when men are portrayed as boors and oafs in the media, just as I don't like how some men claim that they have a right to dominate just because they have a penis. Being a respectable, hardworking person should have nothing to do with gender.

[GeoBQn]

I recommend Guyland by Michael Kimmel. It examines why young men are living in an extended state of adolescence, and it does so without blaming feminism.

[Confused_by_religion]

The whole thing goes on my nerves. In a social studies textbook we use at school it is actually claimed that traditional families are in decline and birth rates are down "because of the emancipation of women". There is NOT. ONE. WORD. to indicate that maybe, just maybe, men's choices could have something to do with it, too. Ironically, I know many women who don't have children because either their partner doesn't want any or because they've never found a man ready to commit and start a family (you know, it's just so much work and so stressful).

Can we PLEASE stop blaming women for everything from being thrown out of Paradise to, er, anything, really. :roll:

[debrand]

What does it mean to be in a perpetual adolescence? I like a lot of activites that are listed in articles to prove that men aren't leaving their childhoods behind quickly enough. For example, I like video games and some sports. People remain with their parents longer because it is financially harder to start a seperate home now. There are other cultures where it is considered normal for young people to remain home. Why is this how we define adulthood in America?

I think that there are a lot of people who don't want to examine the economy and admit that there need to be more jobs that don't require college. Not everyone wants to go to college and some people want to wait until they are older to attend. It's harder to fix the problems with the economy than it is to blame women.

To me, a person who holds a job and pays their bills is taking care of responsibilities. I think that people like Bennet want to define manhood in a more traditional manner but society is leaving them behind.

[Katiebug]

Oh please. I consider being a good wife and mother to be important. Raising our daughter is the most important thing that Mr. Bug and I will ever do. That said, Mr. Bug just doesn't earn enough money to be the sole breadwinner, so I have to work too. That doesn't make me a lousy mom - trust me, most days I wish desperately that I could work part time and have more time with Little Bug.

There is a phenomenon known as failure to launch, where young men in particular have (or are allowed to have) an extended adolescence into their 20s and 30s. Women outnumber men in colleges and universities and a growing percentage of women earn more than their husbands or are the sole breadwinners in their families. I don't know the root cause of it, but I don't think that women becoming more educated and earning more at work is the reason for some young men failing to launch.

It seems like a lot of those morons on CNN.com are blaming working moms, working women in general, and feminism for all of the ills of SOME men. I think if you have to blame another group for your own failures in life it's pretty damned pathetic.

We believe in a concept called Equally Shared Parenting, where both parents choose to share equally in the domains of child care, house work, breadwinning, and time for self. At this stage in our life and with a need for good medical insurance for our family that means both of us work full time, and neither of us has much time for self, but we believe that for us this is a better choice than a traditional "dad works and mom stays home" or a "dad works and so does mom and mom does 90% of the housework and child care" sort of family dynamic.

[debrand]

I really can't stand the whole battle of the sexes thing. I don't like it when men are portrayed as boors and oafs in the media, just as I don't like how some men claim that they have a right to dominate just because they have a penis. Being a respectable, hardworking person should have nothing to do with gender.

I do also. Somewhere I read that the reason men are depicted as stupid is because most Hollywood writers are men. These guys want to relate to women viewers so they think that we want to see childish men with wives who act like perpetual mothers. I don't know if it's true but if any writers for commercials, movies and TV shows read here...STOP IT. Most women like men.

From the article:

The data does not bode well for men. In 1970, men earned 60% of all college degrees. In 1980, the figure fell to 50%, by 2006 it was 43%. Women now surpass men in college degrees by almost three to two. Women's earnings grew 44% in real dollars from 1970 to 2007, compared with 6% growth for men.

Does this mean that less men are in college or that more people are going to college and most of those new people are women? The same number of men can attend college and still be a lower percentage of college attendance.

It all sounds so whiny. Bennet said on Morning Joe that men need women to push them. I do not want to be a perpetual mommy to some man. Come on. Does he really mean that all the men throughout history that influenced our world had to have their moms or wives telling them what to do? How insulting for men.

The warning signs for men stretch far beyond their wallets. Men are more distant from a family or their children then they have ever been

What? Twenty-two years ago my husband was criticised for changing diapers by the older women in his office. Seriously, they did. They told me that they knew that his attempts would produce too loose a diaper. Um...no. In a few years, it became common for men to take physical care of their infants. Now changing diaper is considered a parent's job, not a mom's. How can that shift in attitude be bad?

Men are also less religious than ever before. According to Gallup polling, 39% of men reported attending church regularly in 2010, compared to 47% of women.

So? When did church attendance become a mark of adulthood?

I am guessing that Bennet would be horrified by men that remain home with their kids.

[FlorenceHamilton]

My daughters are 24 and my son is 26. They are all experiencing much of this phenomenon. My son is a college graduate and works very hard. He seems to be functioning fairly well in this arena. He has good homemaking skills, but has a typical bachelor's attitude toward these things. He still prefers playing baketball and going out with his buddies to putting in the effort to engage in activities a girl might like. I think his behavior is a little bit juvenille and he admits that it is. It really does not occur to him that a girl should give up her career for him or cater to being his underling and helper. He does say that girls are very tough and independent these days and that it is intimidating.

One of my daughters is in law school. She is very pretty and very intense. She broke up with a very long term boyfriend about 2 years ago and has dated, but finds her suitors to be juvenille in their attitudes. She is very career directed, but is also a wonderful cook and has a good eye for design. Her apartment is not expensiveliy furnished, but looks as if it is.

My other daughter is in med school. She is very domestic in her attitudes and behaviors. She nurtures her boyfriend with every spare moment she has. He is a lawyer. His favorite pasttime is spending hours playing video games. She treats him like a baby and he seems to like it. She picks out his clothing, supports his interests (even though some of his interests are counter to her preferences) and generally plays the good wife. However, she draws a very start line at her school/career obligations.

My take on what is happening is that men have been doing what they always do. they were so busy doing this that they did not notice that girls changed in their priorities and behavior. My son is obliviously waiting for some woman to come and make him a full grownup. He has all of the skills he needs to do it himself, but it is difficult to give up the really sweet deal that men were promised in the books he read and the more traditional teaching he has gotten in school (yes, ebil public school) He was rasied by me. I left two marriages because I could not abide the abuse or the cheating. I have always made a living in a man's world. He knows that I often faced discrimination because of my gender. He is proud of me. He knows that he is not going to get away with being a jerk and have a healthy life partner. He knows that it is he who must step up and become a man all by himself in order to find a partner.

My daughter in law school is not optimistic about finding a life partner. She has some regret about that feeling, but she is a whole person all by herself. She is thinking that at around 30, she may have a child, partner or no. She says that she does not have the energy to deal with juvenille, controlling or otherwise grossly unacceptable behavior. She wants the man in her life to be a whole person all by himself. She wants fidelity. She wants mutual nurturing and understanding. She has dated men her age and men much older than herself. She finds consistently adolescent attitudes prevail.

My daughter in med school has tried to be a little bit of everything. She is very dedicated to her career. But she is trying to fill the traditional role of a female partner for her boyfriend. Now that her schooling is getting more intense and he is now out practicing law, she is beginning to get frustrated with his inability to man up. She is still coaxing him to be more grown up. He is a sweet guy. He really appreciates how hard she tries. But ultimately, he is willing to be dependent on her nurturing personality. It is interesting to watch them struggle with the changing structure of society.

With the advent of personal computing (RIP Steve Jobs), food production as an indistry, and even the fact that we can create a conception without personal interaction, the rules have all changed. The traditional gender roles are not determined by biology and practicality. There really is no going back. As much as the Christian conservative movement would like to make it so, it will not be so. Even the Maxwells know that there are female doctors, lawyers, and bricklayers. The movement on which we comment (snark) is having its last hurrah. And I think they will enjoy a short victory. Ultimately, reality is that we must evolve. Even the men. They just don't like it.

[Beeks]

As a mother of boys, I do worry about the messages society sends to boys and men. I hate the way men are depicted in the media, and I am even more worried about the apparent bias towards the learning style of girls in public schools (obviously I'm speaking in stereotypes here but in general, boys and girls learn very differently). I worry about my boys and how they will do in this world that is now so geared towards women's success...and continually gives men the message that they are stupid and/or not capable. I wish we could support BOTH sexes equally instead of always swinging too far in one direction or the other.

[FlorenceHamilton]

Beeks,

I think that it will take another generation to smooth stuff out. Education is going to take a major hit in the coming years because of the right wing push against public education. I don't see it as good for any learning style. Parents are going to need to fill our own children with a love of learning and to exercise critical thinking. It is the role of all parents, regardless of gender, to invest in the education of their children. Perhaps the last hurrah of the religious right will have a silver lining. When it becomes clear that education is critical to a successful society and that without a strong puplic education system, we will fall to the rear of many other countries, it will be funded again. Perhaps this will give us a chance to build a better education system. Schools cannot do this all alone. Families must be involved. Industry must stop penalizing parents in the workplace for taking time to parent. Ultimately, it is better for industry to invest in a well adjusted, well educated workforce. And it simply is not gender specific. This means everyone.

[apple1]

Oh please. I consider being a good wife and mother to be important. Raising our daughter is the most important thing that Mr. Bug and I will ever do. That said, Mr. Bug just doesn't earn enough money to be the sole breadwinner, so I have to work too. That doesn't make me a lousy mom - trust me, most days I wish desperately that I could work part time and have more time with Little Bug...

This reflects my life very much, except my kids are adults now (one adult daughter still living at home). At this stage, I wish I could be SAHGrandma (other daughter's baby), but... it's not to be.

I couldn't even guess all the reasons, but in some cases women are employed and men are unemployed because the women work at jobs that many men don't want, either due to type of work, type of education, or lower pay. There are more "service" jobs and fewer traditional white collar OR blue collar jobs that men have tended to go for. My own profession is 90%+ female. My husband's (former) profession has been mostly either outsourced to other countries or replaced by technology and equipment. He works at something else entirely after forced "retirement" at the age of 54 (no income associated with the retirement). I think there has to be a change in attitude toward what are "male" and what are "female" jobs among the male population.

[Bella99]

http://www.cnn.com/2011/10/04/opinion/bennett-men-in-trouble/index.html

Read the highest rated comments. Yikes! :shock:

As an example of what some of them are saying, take a look at this:

What I would like to know is why it would make sense for a woman to give up her career and financial stability for this doofus. Being a full-time homemaker is wonderful, but if your husband dies, becomes ill or just decides to dump you, it is much harder to rejoin the workforce after years out. One of the biggest reasons I am back in school is to secure the well-being of our family if something dreadful happened.

[gardenvarietycitizen]

What I don't like about these "but what about the men???" articles is that so many of the men quoted feeling sorry for themselves and lamenting the horrible state of the feminist world seem to have an attitude of "if I can't be the hero all the time and have people admiringly praising my every move, then it's not worth doing anything, so I didn't do anything, and now I'm stuck - and it's all YOUR fault, because you wouldn't put your own concerns on hold and censor your own abilities to fawn all over me and boost my ego constantly."

Well... F that.

You don't get to require someone else be your dependent so that you can "feel needed." Mutual cooperation is a wonderful thing, but the pining for the gender divide and various ideas of romantic chivalry just drives me nuts.

[BlackHawk]

As a man I have so much that could be said about this article. It's.. annoying to me really.

In 1950, 5% of men at the prime working age were unemployed. As of last year, 20% were not working, the highest ever recorded.

Did anyone think to look that in 1950 women were just getting to the point that they could find a job outside the home that they could work out? Also, did anyone look at the fact that we are in an economic downturn that forces people out of work? Or the fact that with a college degree you are suddenly "over qualified" for certain jobs thus you can't take them? Or, even more sinister, and perhaps false, the fact that jobs hire women for less than men, thus making them more "valuable" as they pay them less (I'm not saying that's right, by all means I think it's wrong, but it could be a contributing factor).

We need to respond to this culture that sends confusing signals to young men, a culture that is agnostic about what it wants men to be, with a clear and achievable notion of manhood.

This quote I do agree with. You would be hard pressed to find a man on prime time TV who wasn't a bafoon or the likes. It is infuriating and annoying.

As for the comments on the article... WHY oh WHY do the idiots come out to play with these type of articles? It's like chum to a shark to see something like this. Men can't sit on their asses and complain all damn day, geezus! I had a hard time in jobs of my chosen profession because I was a man, so I started my own business. Yeah, it's a bit of work. Yeah, it's tiring. Yeah, I work 17-19 hour days. Yeah, it sucks sometimes, but instead of bitching that the women won't let me have a job, I did something about it. Instead of wishing for the 1950s I adapted to the 2000s. Seriously, this, I think, is where men need a lot of help. We are told by our father's to expect this type of woman... well, when our father's were dating and got married, that type of women existed... but in our day and age, seriously, you won't find the same type of woman. Women, rightfully, are stepping out into other roles. Instead of trying to hold them back, we should be encouraging father's and men to step up to the roles they are given. Not because one is better than the other, but because our society is constantly changing. Since the women's liberation movement, everything is changing... and that's okay. We (as men) just need to catch up and realize what our new roles are in the family. And perhaps that is what is lacking. Instead of just teaching women the power of liberation, society needs to also invest some time to teach men exactly what this means for them as well.

Anyway, I'm off to teach a class now. This may seem rambly and disjointed, and it might be, sorry about that!

[Joykins]

The whole thing goes on my nerves. In a social studies textbook we use at school it is actually claimed that traditional families are in decline and birth rates are down "because of the emancipation of women". There is NOT. ONE. WORD. to indicate that maybe, just maybe, men's choices could have something to do with it, too. Ironically, I know many women who don't have children because either their partner doesn't want any or because they've never found a man ready to commit and start a family (you know, it's just so much work and so stressful).

Can we PLEASE stop blaming women for everything from being thrown out of Paradise to, er, anything, really. :roll:

I look at it another way. When women have free choice, they don't always choose to be part of a traditional family or to have as many children as they otherwise might have had. Studies actually show, for example, that when women freely choose their family size, they tend to make choices that are environmentally and economically sustainable--far better choices, in other words, than if family planning choices were left up to men.

[dormouse]

It makes me so angry when they say that women are "concerned about their careers". They just want to keep their job so they can feed their family and keep a roof over their heads: it takes two incomes to live in the 21st century. Even if you say that you'll be frugal, rent a 2-bedroom apartment, bike everywhere you go, cook everything from scratch, it now takes 2 incomes just to make rent. Many women would stay home if they had the choice. Just like I'm sure many men would. And many people of both genders would go crazy staying home all day and prefer working.

[Rosa]

People are equally lazy. So if a woman has to get a college degree to get a pink-collar job that pays $35K, and a man can get a similar paying blue-collar job with a high school diploma, a lot fewer men are going to bother with college.

The job thing is just stupid, though. Why pick 1950? In 1932 only 76% of working-age men had jobs. Because there were no jobs to be had.

[docmom]

If men are in trouble because they can't adapt to the 21st century then they need to get off their duffs and adapt. Look around, the world is still, by and large, controlled by men. The playing field is still tipped strongly in their direction although we have been making it more level recently. I refuse to let my son use the Ebil Wimmin excuse for not getting ahead. If he's not smart enough, hard working enough, or responsible enough to hold down a job and a woman is, then that woman deserves that job.

URRGH I hate the "poor men" excuse.

[Shirley MacLaine]

As a person in the age group often discussed in articles like this... I just don't see the problem. My boyfriend does love video games (and we play together), but he has a job and is career-oriented. He cooks and keeps his place clean. All the typical markers of 'prolonged adolescence' don't really mean much to me, I don't long for my boyfriend to sell his X-Box and stop liking comic books. And I don't see not wanting marriage and family at a young age as a great tragedy or representative of the DECLINE OF SOCIETY.

I dunno, perhaps it is more difficult for traditionally-minded people to find a place for themselves in modern society, but I just don't care that much about that particular struggle.

[library_youth]

The job thing is just stupid, though. Why pick 1950? In 1932 only 76% of working-age men had jobs. Because there were no jobs to be had.

Because people still like to uphold the myth that everything in the 1950's was perfect and that in 2011 we're completely screwed up.

[Austin]

I don't feel sorry for men. I'm married to one and have raised three and I don't feel a bit sorry for any of them. White males are born into white male privilege and they have never had to really fight to be recognized as anyone's equal. They are "the default" in society and everyone is a "one-off" in comparison. They appear into the world several rungs higher on the ladder than anyone else and that's just the way that it is.

I love and adore my husband and family, as anyone who reads my posts knows, but they do not deserve mine or anyone else's pity or worry. I do not buy into this "war against boys" crap (sorry, Christina Hoff Sommers).

Television/entertainment is based on stereotypes. That has always been the case. I don't see a blonde woman on television portrayed as a ditz and think, "Oh, all blonde women are ditzes", nor is it valid to see a man portrayed as a goofball and for someone to think, "Oh, all guys are goofballs". If that's what people take away from these stupid sitcoms in either case, then that just betrays their own ignorance.

Sorry, but men aren't victims.

ETA: I couldn't get the link to work for me, but if this piece is by Bill Bennett, then just consider the source. He's one of the biggest assholes on the planet.

[emmiedahl]

The reason more women are in college is that traditionally female jobs like nursing and education require a lot of school, while traditionally male jobs require little.

I hate blaming women for the economy. 'If women quit their jobs, there would be more for men' seems to be a rallying cry now. Well, if men quit their jobs there would be more for women. We don't ask people to sacrifice themselves at the altar of the economy. jfc.

As for the difference in the increase of wages: men STILL make more than women. Our wages have taken a steep upturn and they STILL earn more for the same jobs. So we are in the processing of becoming more equal, and that does NOT leave men behind. It just means your daughter will likely earn the same as your son.

The commenter who said there are no home-minded women for him to marry: someone should direct him to Sarah Maxwell or the Botkinettes.

[dramallama]

...really? Religion and children are the markers of adulthood? As a non-religious 30-year-old woman who is choosing to never have children and also happens to play video games fairly often, I find it funny that I'm apparently an adolescent boy and will be for the rest of my life. I'm also married to a 30-year-old atheist man who's chosen never to have children and plays video games fairy often. We're both employed full-time while finishing our degrees full-time and volunteering at an animal shelter two days per week. Nope, no responsible adults in this household! Just a couple of smelly teenage boys.

[QueenNocturne]

I don't like the idea that marriage leads to maturity. I had a lot of relatives that first married at young ages, including my father, and it became pretty obvious that a ring on your finger does not automatically make you an adult. This is why so many of those relatives have subsequently divorced their first spouse, even during the so-called idylic 1950s.

As for the 26 year old asswipe who can't find a wife: the reason why a lot of women are focusing on a career is not that they don't want to get married or have children. It's because someone needs to bring home the funds for a family to survive. With this economy, a whole lot of men can't find jobs. And let's not forget the number of men who won't financially support their families. (Hi there, Gabe Anast! )