JinJer and Felicity 43: No Homebirth, No Problem

[Escadora]

1 minute ago, Rachel333 said:

I agree with your post overall, but the actual phrase "keep sweet" is from the FLDS not from the Duggars , though it's similar to what they were taught. I think the way a lot of people on FJ have used the phrase has made people think that it is something the Duggars and other non-FLDS fundies say.

see, this is why I shouldn't post when i'm feeling grumpy because i didn't know that and i didn't fact check it and ended up arguing against myself. good job me, what a excellent student i've been tonight. 

thank you for the correction, i appreciate it and i'm sure that information will benefit me in the future  

[Rachel333]

2 minutes ago, Escadora said:

see, this is why I shouldn't post when i'm feeling grumpy because i didn't know that and i didn't fact check it and ended up arguing against myself. good job me, what a excellent student i've been tonight. 

thank you for the correction, i appreciate it and i'm sure that information will benefit me in the future  

I mean, even if they don't use that specific phrase in the horrifying way the FLDS do, the attitude is still relevant to the Duggars!

[HarryPotterFan]

8 minutes ago, Rachel333 said:

I agree with your post overall, but the actual phrase "keep sweet" is from the FLDS not from the Duggars , though it's similar to what they were taught. I think the way a lot of people on FJ have used the phrase has made people think that it is something the Duggars and other non-FLDS fundies say.

I’m confused. How is the FLDS “keep sweet” different than the Duggar girls always talking about “keeping it sweet” or whatever?

[tabitha2]

They have never used that term that I can remember. Besides do you think Jessa or Jinger is particularly sweet or good at keeping so? They never had much practise that I see.

[Escadora]

Just now, Rachel333 said:

I mean, even if they don't use that specific phrase in the horrifying way the FLDS do, the attitude is still relevant to the Duggars!

It does remind me of the interview when the older girls were asked what they wanted from their future, and when one of them (I think it was either Joy or Jinger) began to go into specifics, Jill was quick to interrupt/ correct them and say something along the vague lines of being content or happy with what they're given/what the Lord provides. 

[JMO]

1 minute ago, tabitha2 said:

They have never used that term that I can remember. 

There was an early episode when they were in Little Rock after Josie was born and Jill told Johanna to "keep sweet".

[HarryPotterFan]

Also, why are do little children learn to strip long before they learn to dress themselves? Once I was a preschool camp counselor, and some brilliant individual decided that the kids should have water play every other day or something. Which means a bunch of tiny children running through sprinklers, then 3 adults (well one adult and 2 teens) have to change and dress 15 tiny children. Which leads to, “do I help this wet child or throw clothes on the one contentedly playing naked?”

ETA: I could have sworn the Duggars always went on about being sweet, but I just tried to google it and articles about Michelle talking about her sex life popped up.

[tabitha2]

3 minutes ago, JMO said:

There was an early episode when they were in Little Rock after Josie was born and Jill told Johanna to "keep sweet".

Are you sure it was not  the regular admonishment “ Be Sweet, Johanna!”  Is there a clip handy?

 

[Rachel333]

5 minutes ago, HarryPotterFan said:

I’m confused. How is the FLDS “keep sweet” different than the Duggar girls always talking about “keeping it sweet” or whatever?

It's just not a term the Duggars use. They use the word "sweet" a lot so I don't doubt they've said something similar, but "keep sweet" is actually a specific teaching of the FLDS in a way it has never been for the Duggars. Here's a blog post about it.

[TakingBibleClasses]

24 minutes ago, HarryPotterFan said:

I’m confused. How is the FLDS “keep sweet” different than the Duggar girls always talking about “keeping it sweet” or whatever?

An analysis of the semantic range of the word "sweet" amongst American religious sects:

The Duggars do overuse the word "sweet," but it's always as a complimentary adjective, usually directed toward women/girls (in Michelle’s voice: “sweet Josie!") and babies (“you have such a sweet little one!”). I do have to give Jessa props for consistently using the word "sweet" to validate her boys; I think she's the only one who does it (correct me if I'm wrong). She uses it to reinforce positive behavior like sharing, or giving someone else a compliment ("that was sweet, Spurgie").

The FLDS are the ones who use "keep sweet" as an imperative. It's a warning that your behavior is out of line, and that you should submit to authority. You're not being sweet, and you should be.

TLDR:
Duggars: reinforcing positive behavior/character
FLDS: reigning in negative behavior/character

Both aim to shape behavior, the latter in a more threatening way.

[tabitha2]

They want the girls to be sweet to others naturally but it’s Far from the way the way the FLDS see the term. 

[Escadora]

1 minute ago, tabitha2 said:

Are you sure it was not  the regular admonishment “ Be Sweet, Johanna!”  Is there a clip handy?

I don't mean to beat a dead horse, but "keep sweet" and "be sweet" are both demanding a change of attitude and demeanour rather than the processing and dealing with actual feelings, regardless of the origins of the phrase or tone it's used in.

I'm sure there are clips available. Youtube has a good selection of them if you want to look there, but maybe tlc could have one too. 

 

[tabitha2]

Telling your daughter or son to be sweet to his friends and play nice is a pretty universal phrase and really not that deep:)  

 

[Rachel333]

"Keep sweet" is also something FLDS child rape victims are told, so I think it has particularly dark implications. It's something FLDS escapees mention a lot because they heard and read those exact words over and over, so I do think it's worth distinguishing that particular phrase from general "be sweet" admonitions from the Duggars.

I do think that the Duggars teaching their kids to hide negative feelings is also harmful and I'm definitely not trying to minimize that.

[Escadora]

Just now, tabitha2 said:

Telling your daughter or son to be sweet to his friends and play nice is a pretty universal phrase and really not that deep:)  

 

Once again, if it were coming from a non-fundie family, I'd agree with you. But, actually, in fundieland cases, it is that deep.

I can't continue to be calm and polite when you consistently pick apart every argument and only rebuff them with comments like "It's not that deep" and making vague references instead of engaging in any meaningful way. It reeks of  being flippantly dismissive, and I don't like putting my reputation and time on the line only to get a single sentence answer that I'm not even tagged in. I don't mind being wrong, but I do mind being baited, and I think that's exactly what you're intending to do.

Of course, it's likely me being sensitive, and so I apologise if this isn't what you're intending to do, because I'm sure that it's 'not that deep'. I hope the rest of this discussion is pleasant for you and that you can be willing to consider ideas that you're not as comfortable with. The others are far better at staying calm and getting a point across, anyway.

 In the interests of keeping myself out of trouble and not getting into a tiff (because I've really liked your commentary on some other threads and I'd hate to lose out on nice conversation in the future because of a feeling I'm feeling now) I'm going to do what I said I would do earlier and leave this thread be. I apologise for the multiple goodnight posts, I know that's not great etiquette, but I didn't mean to flounce and then come back in all guns blazing. I'll do better in the future.

@Rachel333, @HarryPotterFan thank you for the information you two shared and the perspectives you gave, I'm going to take some time to process it and hopefully come back next time with a better understanding of the dynamics I ignorantly claimed to know pretty well. 

[acheronbeach]

36 minutes ago, Escadora said:

It does remind me of the interview when the older girls were asked what they wanted from their future, and when one of them (I think it was either Joy or Jinger) began to go into specifics, Jill was quick to interrupt/ correct them and say something along the vague lines of being content or happy with what they're given/what the Lord provides. 

It was Jinger talking about how she wanted to move to a city, AFAIK.  And yes, Jill acted like her insufferably prissy self and interrupted.

"Keep sweet" arose from fundamentalist Mormonism and has very specific ideas embedded into that phrase about the role of Mormon women.  It's got a lot of very peculiar Mormon ideology attached to it,  not just about bring submissive and Christian.  So (JMO) I'm not comfortable using it RE the Duggars, despite the superficial similarities.  

 

And I agree, the Diggers have used similar language. 

[JillyO]

1 hour ago, mstee said:

@Escadora I was just about to bring up the Pomeroys but couldn’t remember their name! That one sister was especially nuts. She talked about “training” her baby to keep a bonnet on from only a couple months old. Talk about not having regard for your child’s comfort or preference. She’s definitely an extreme example. 

If anybody is intrigued but doesn't know about the Pomeroys, here is Chelsea's Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/chelsea_pomeroy/

It's public for now, but last time we were talking about her family on FJ she went private for a while. So enjoy it while you can, folks. Here's a sneak peek:

 

[Ivycoveredtower]

17 minutes ago, Escadora said:

Once again, if it were coming from a non-fundie family, I'd agree with you. But, actually, in fundieland cases, it is that deep.

I can't continue to be calm and polite when you consistently pick apart every argument and only rebuff them with comments like "It's not that deep" and making vague references instead of engaging in any meaningful way. It reeks of  being flippantly dismissive, and I don't like putting my reputation and time on the line only to get a single sentence answer that I'm not even tagged in. I don't mind being wrong, but I do mind being baited, and I think that's exactly what you're intending to do.

Of course, it's likely me being sensitive, and so I apologise if this isn't what you're intending to do, because I'm sure that it's 'not that deep'. I hope the rest of this discussion is pleasant for you and that you can be willing to consider ideas that you're not as comfortable with. The others are far better at staying calm and getting a point across, anyway.

 In the interests of keeping myself out of trouble and not getting into a tiff (because I've really liked your commentary on some other threads and I'd hate to lose out on nice conversation in the future because of a feeling I'm feeling now) I'm going to do what I said I would do earlier and leave this thread be. I apologise for the multiple goodnight posts, I know that's not great etiquette, but I didn't mean to flounce and then come back in all guns blazing. I'll do better in the future.

@Rachel333, @HarryPotterFan thank you for the information you two shared and the perspectives you gave, I'm going to take some time to process it and hopefully come back next time with a better understanding of the dynamics I ignorantly claimed to know pretty well. 

I'll admit that when I see say a bow on Felicity it doesn't snap something in me say the way It did when it was on Josie or hearing Jessa say Be sweet to Spurg isn't the same to me as say Michelle saying it to Jenni. part of it's probably me hoping that in even tiny ways the younger generation can break the cycle of their parents. I know JIm Bob and Michelle are fucked up majorly and Jill is something else (Lets maybe put that down to bad on social media.) and well I'll call the married's out on things I want to try and not Automatically assume the younger Duggs are going to parent in the shadow of JIm Bob and Michelle. which is just kind of my way to say that you make some excellent points but as for say Jinger and Bows because that's what started this I'm not going to say she's doing it to be Patriarchal and stiffing to her daughter at this point in the game at least. 

[ClutchingMyPearls1984]

Second post! Up late and decided to risk it all and comment. 

In some Christians circles, “sweet” is used specifically toward children regarding their attitude and countenance. Ted Tripp, author of Shepherding Your Childs Heart (pro-corporal punishment) used the term  toward his daughter when she was not of a good countenance after being spanked. He promoted spanking a child until their attitude changed. 

While sometimes I see some posts being a bit BEC or a stretch, there might similarities to the use of the word sweet with the Duggars and say the FLDS, in my opinion.

Any southerners feel free to make comment, but I have also heard people of a southern origin use that phrase (with no maliciousness) so it could also be a regional thing.

To tell your child to be sweet if they’re being mean is one thing. To tell them to be sweet to change their mood and countenance for the benefit of others and social acceptance is another.

I’m not sure how Jana meant it toward Johanna in the one or more examples. Context would help.

I am familiar with training a child with clothing (particularly for Sunday dress) but it’s in the context of overall obedience, not necessarily gender roles. The fundies I know have strict guidelines for their boys, though not nearly as restrictive as the girls.

Just my two (dozen) cents.

[Ivycoveredtower]

22 minutes ago, JillyO said:

If anybody is intrigued but doesn't know about the Pomeroys, here is Chelsea's Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/chelsea_pomeroy/

It's public for now, but last time we were talking about her family on FJ she went private for a while. So enjoy it while you can, folks. Here's a sneak peek:

 

went to their page now officially creeped out those poor kids I mean just Wow some of those pictures are nightmare indusing. 

[TeaELSee]

Duggar rules

scroll to about 25-25:30

No use of the word sweet but they are encouraged to fake it!

[Mama Mia]

2 hours ago, Ivycoveredtower said:

look at Joy that girl hates Dresses she even admitted to really disliking dresses and going for skirts (Which I'm positive is just because she can't go for pants and I don't see Austin changing that stance any time soon) she even admitted the only reason she wears dresses is because Austin likes them. so we know she hates them but we also know Boob and Mechelle forced her into them since she was a baby. and some pretty hideous ones too. 

The whole Joy dresses thing seemed overblown , to me.  She was a young girl, clearly hot for her boyfriend. He probably just happened to make an off-hand comment saying she looked pretty in dresses and she started obsessing on it. No different than another girl ( or boy ) hearing “ you look nice” in a new relationship and wanting to copy that look. Austin seemed far less directive with Joy than Lauren does with Josiah’s beard.

[allthegoodnamesrgone]

My scalp hurts just looking at those photos. This reminds me a bit of my mom,  We didn't have long hair ours was kept short and sharp and practical. she "didn't have time to deal with our hair, besides its ugly any way, no one needs to fuss with all that hair.  Yeah, controlling mothers don't always need bows to make you uncomfortable.  

 . 

 

[TeaELSee]

1 hour ago, Ivycoveredtower said:

went to their page now officially creeped out those poor kids I mean just Wow some of those pictures are nightmare indusing. 

 Where does that family live?  Those poor girls seem like props.

[Mama Mia]

2 hours ago, TeaELSee said:

 Where does that family live?  Those poor girls seem like props.

 

3 hours ago, JillyO said:

If anybody is intrigued but doesn't know about the Pomeroys, here is Chelsea's Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/chelsea_pomeroy/

It's public for now, but last time we were talking about her family on FJ she went private for a while. So enjoy it while you can, folks. Here's a sneak peek:

 

Completely shallow me just noticed the straw purses with embroidered cherries. I want one.