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JinJer and Felicity 43: No Homebirth, No Problem


Georgiana

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3 minutes ago, BernRul said:

I think my sister was mostly joking, not that I can always tell.

My sister is like that too.

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I think the big bows, big flowers, stretchy pineapple headbands ( love that description ) are helpful like  wedding dresses, or dark red lips with a heavy brow, or skinny jeans. They  help to roughly pinpoint a time and place when you’re sorting through unmarked photos generations later. Other than that, it’s all just personal preference. 

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I posted once on a JinJer thread months ago about my thoughts on headbands and bows and frilly stuff and copped flack for it despite it being an opinion that I was so sure many would agree with. I think it's the tone more than the content of posts like these that I think were the problem, and there absolutely was a holier-than-thou, snotty ring to my words that day, and I should have taken more care when posting about such a hot topic, especially considering that I'm not yet a parent.  You live and learn and I feel like if I'm okay with giving out downvotes (which I absolutely am because sometimes they're necessary, but I'm also big enough to admit that sometimes I've been petty with my given reputation) on occasion then I should also be okay with receiving them for whatever reasons the giver has. @SapphireSlytherin, for what it's worth, your reputation to post ratio is pretty good. I know that you and I disagree on a fair few issues but your input is clearly valued on the forum or your reputation wouldn't be as good as it is. Disagreements and petty arguments are sadly sometimes a part of forum life, and we all give as good as we get. 

With regards to the conversation, I still think that unnecessarily tight bows on babies with still soft heads, tons of layers for girls for 'modesty' (like the kind JRod insists her girls wear, I swear I'm not just pulling the examples out of my ass), and strictly gendered clothes from birth are yet another layer of control that fundie parents extend over their children.

Some of my most liberal friends put bows on their girls and monster truck t-shirts on their sons but the difference is that they'd remove those items if the kid indicated that they didn't like it. Even those here who would rather their kids stick to their own gender clothing, I'm sure, would allow their kids some room to wriggle within it. It's not the rampant use of hair bows amongst fundies (again, JRod comes to mind) that I find sinister so much as it it the tone it sets for the rest of the fundie kids' lives "Oh, you're a girl, you must have pigtails and bows and frills and lace all the time and then only very long skirts because modesty and you must always be feminine and perfect and pretty all the time always and forever even when you're a baby who can't even so much as sit up let alone have an opinion (that you're not allowed to have anyway)". The expectations fundies have for their baby girls aren't the same as we would have for our baby girls, which is why I think it's different (in a good way) when posters here talk of their love for hair bows.

But it's my opinion, that I hold strongly, and there's every chance that my observations about fundie life and the conclusions I draw from it aren't accurate. 

idk if I'm wording it right but essentially what I'm saying is that just because I hate the way fundies smother their baby girls in bows and floofy, flouncy skirts and the like (because of the implications that I personally think that those choices mean for the baby girls) doesn't mean I'm trying to insult every parent who's ever dressed their baby in anything other than a sleeper. This is gonna be a hot button issue forever, probably, on the forum, but I feel like each time it's bought up the conversation gets more and more civil. 

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1 hour ago, allthegoodnamesrgone said:

I have no idea get so weirded out by infants or toddlers missing articles of clothing? It is so common for them to kick off shoes, pull of socks or get their pants or top off. I never say anything to the parent, unless I've found a child's article of clothing on the floor then I would pick it up and ask the parent if it was theirs.

One of my aunt's neighbors was totally weirded out by my cousin's penchant for removing clothing. That woman was an endless busybody about it. You would have thought there was a topless 16 year old bouncing around the neighborhood rather than a 3-4 year old. My aunt told her off more than once since keeping on just bottoms was a victory with that child. I remember us all going swimming and her wanting her swim top off if not her whole suit--she had a hard time getting off a wet swimsuit on her own. 

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Apparently once when I was about 4-5, a friend and I decided to throw our clothes on the nearest tree and run around in the field behind my house naked. My parents used to let me play outside as a toddler with no shirt on so I'm sure it wasn't that much a stretch for me to think nothing was okay. I think it was a neighbor who told my parents what we were doing and they came out and made us get dressed :my_shy:

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I think toddlers running around naked is fairly innocent, though I would have my purely hypothetical children in some article of clothing as much as possible. Nothing wrong with telling a little one to put their clothes back on.  It's the fact that fundies might severely shame and punish little ones who run around naked. The fact that ATI teachings preach that babies and toddlers can be defrauding. It's so sick and twisted. From bows on babies to modesty on toddlers, it's the broader context that I find concerning. 

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#2 son could strip pretty much to the skin w/o ever getting out of his carseat. I could triple or quadruple knot his shoes and he'd pick at them until they came untied. Then it'd be socks, etc. He hated clothes then, he's still not too fond of them now (he's 28). He will avoid shoes at all costs. 

Bows: Why the hell not? Who the fuck cares? 

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I'm lucky my kid likes cloths.  But in our yard I wouldn't necessarily tell him he had to put his cloths back on.  If I did he would ask why and argue.  

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1 hour ago, justoneoftwo said:

My sister is like that too.

I'm told that I'm like that haha! Apparently I have a dry sense of humor. I think I'm hilarious but I forget, when someone doesn't know me very well, they don't know that I'm joking.....kind of awkward!! 

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23 hours ago, Iamtheway said:

Is there someone here that used those kind of bows on their baby? Can you explain why to me? I’m trying so hard not to judge, but is it really that important that your daughter is never ever mistaken for a boy? 

It looks so uncomfortable to me and has no purpose at all, except gendering. The little beanie she had with a bow on it looked cute and comfy. This is so bright it draws the attention away from her face.

Miniway is four and is mistaken for a girl all the time. I couldn’t care less. So I guess I don’t really understand the point. But even if it is important to you I’m sure pink clothes will do the trick. In my experience anything remotly ”girly” when it comes to clothes will make everyone assume your kid is a girl, no bows needed.

I can maybe understand a pretty bow for a nice photo op or a dressy occasion if you like bows, but while taking a nap? In the car?

:dontgetit:

I’ll use my first post EVER here to reply. Yes, I admit to putting bows on my baby girl. I had her after two boys. Two boys and I was like 100% sure I was going to have a third boy. My cousin was pregnant with her fifth boy. Two of my friends were pregnant with their third boy and now I was just convinced I was having my third boy as well. But! She’s a girl and I just enjoyed being able to buy dresses and bows. She’s only going to be little for so long. So before she’s able to pull them out, or tell me she doesn’t want them, or until she declares black is her favorite color and wants to wear “skater pants” the way I did when I was 13, I’ll dress her how I want. And she doesn’t wear them at home bc Home is for cozy clothes (!!) or in the car seat bc I’m aftaid she will pull them down over herself and I won’t know bc I can’t see her. But yes, we have bows for everything. 

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Bows on babies is an uncommon sight here in Ireland. When my girl was a baby, I’m not sure if I ever even saw one for sale. 

Now she’s 8 and mad for Jojo Siwa bows, which I really hate. 

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On 8/14/2018 at 5:38 AM, ViolaSebastian said:

I don't either, but I've seen non-Duggary people in my personal life tag their kids photos with their names, so it's not just a Duggar thing. 

Non-Duggary. Makes me think of non-Binary. I guess this kind of makes sense, because we know the jinder binary is alive and well among Duggary folk.

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7 hours ago, lizzybee said:

Yes exactly. I need some cute accessories for my boys to waste money on! 

Little boys in bow ties are adorable. I knitted a tux jacket with pearl buttons on the shirt part and a bow tie for grand wolf 2.

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5 hours ago, Escadora said:

With regards to the conversation, I still think that unnecessarily tight bows on babies with still soft heads, tons of layers for girls for 'modesty' (like the kind JRod insists her girls wear, I swear I'm not just pulling the examples out of my ass), and strictly gendered clothes from birth are yet another layer of control that fundie parents extend over their children.

 

I think hairbows are legitimately pretty cute, but the connections you're making are interesting. The way that clothing shapes our worlds is so imperceptible but, I think, very real! For instance, it's easy for patriarchal parents to believe that women are "naturally" weaker and less physical than men when they grew up wearing dark tights and layers during southern summers (which would make physical activity unpleasant for anyone); or to believe that women "naturally" put others before themselves because learning to cope with pigtail-induced headaches before they could talk taught them to accept their own discomfort.

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I seriously doubt Mrs Fundie Helpmeet has such sadistic and far reaching plans as to intentionally pick a cute bow so she can use pain as teaching method on her 6 week old infant daughter. I give you she might insist her kid wear them even if she hates because she has to obey instantly but not to torture her infant purposefully. 

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4 minutes ago, tabitha2 said:

I seriously doubt Mrs Fundie Helpmeet has such sadistic and far reaching plans as to intentionally pick a cute bow so she can use pain as teaching method on her 6 week old infant daughter. I give you she might insist her kid wear them even if she hates because she has to obey instantly but not to torture her infant purposefully. 

I don't think anyone actually thinks, "I am going to intentionally cause my daughter pain" when they're picking out clothing. That's not how it works and not what anyone is arguing. It's absolutely true though that girls are taught from very young ages that they need to accept pain and discomfort for the sake of their appearance, and that's not at all limited to fundies.

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1 minute ago, Rachel333 said:

I don't think anyone actually thinks, "I am going to intentionally cause my daughter pain." That's not how it works and not what anyone is arguing. It's absolutely true though that girls are taught from very young ages that they need to accept pain and discomfort for the sake of their appearance, and that's not at all limited to fundies.

Makes me think of panty hoses. I hated wearing them as kid when ever we had a school play ect.. I haven't worn them in well over a decade now and refuse to ever again. they are uncomfortable and most of the time are ruined by the end of the night anyway. 

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4 minutes ago, nickelodeon said:

I think hairbows are legitimately pretty cute, but the connections you're making are interesting. The way that clothing shapes our worlds is so imperceptible but, I think, very real! For instance, it's easy for patriarchal parents to believe that women are "naturally" weaker and less physical than men when they grew up wearing dark tights and layers during southern summers (which would make physical activity unpleasant for anyone); or to believe that women "naturally" put others before themselves because learning to cope with pigtail-induced headaches before they could talk taught them to accept their own discomfort.

See what I love about FJ more than anything else is when someone just gets it. I could go on for paragraph after paragraph trying to make that point but I'd never think of those examples even though that's EXACTLY what it is I'm trying to say. Clothing, and the other ways in which we dress our bodies are so important across a whole variety of cultures. If it didn't matter this wouldn't even be a discussion. 

Does anybody remember a couple of months back when we discussed the Pomeroy(sp?) sisters and their kids that they dressed up in those pinterest-worthy outfits day after day after day, treating their daughters like life-sized dolls with no regard for their daughters' health (giving them sugar-filled, large coffees at what some would argue is an inappropriately young age), and pulling their hair so tight into bows and curls that their hairlines had started to recede? I feel like that's an extreme example of what it is I've been trying to say. To people like that their children aren't people, they're merely extensions of themselves that they can dress and do with as they please (which I believe especially in the Pomeroy's case because after marriage/turning a certain age - i can't remember which - the women aren't 'encouraged' to dress plainly and wear no makeup). 

Clothing has always been a hot button issue on FJ because of what it may or may not mean and I'm firmly in the camp that it means more than nothing. 

@tabitha2 you commented whilst i was writing this so instead of double posting i thought i'd just tag it on here.  I do understand and agree with you that putting a hair bow on a baby is likely not intentional abuse of a child on a fundie mother's part. But that's also not what I'm talking about, and I think you know that. Cute bows and pigtails aren't the same thing, especially when those pigtails are so tight that they cause headaches. I think it's naive to believe that fundie girls aren't taught to suffer in silence, and I absolutely believe that clothing can contribute to that. Of course, if we disagree then we disagree, and it's all well and good, but I don't think you took the bigger picture into account when you minimised the argument like that. I'm not intending to insult you or any bow you choose/chose to put on a baby, but rather the implications of what strict gender roles can have on fundie girls, I'm sorry if that wasn't clear.

 

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It does not seem of the Duggar or Bates girls seem to have ever suffered in silence but for maybe Jana  ;)  Let’s not confuse modern modest fundies with FLDS and the Like . But you say tomato I say Tomahto. 

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@Escadora I was just about to bring up the Pomeroys but couldn’t remember their name! That one sister was especially nuts. She talked about “training” her baby to keep a bonnet on from only a couple months old. Talk about not having regard for your child’s comfort or preference. She’s definitely an extreme example. 

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On 8/14/2018 at 7:31 PM, mstee said:

that it is important for milk production for your baby to be able to knead your breasts while they feed-

I didn’t know that! Now I feel less bad about my cat lady brain sometimes thinking, “KITTY!” When I see a cute baby. They both “knead” their mommy!!!

A baby making biscuits. Awww

4 hours ago, Irishy said:

Now she’s 8 and mad for Jojo Siwa bows, which I really hate. 

Her bows are something else. I read she got into a twitter fight with the Cash Me Outside girl

https://www.cosmopolitan.com/entertainment/a22580364/danielle-bregoli-bhad-bhabie-jojo-siwa-feud/

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2 minutes ago, tabitha2 said:

It does not seem of the Duggar or Bates girls seem to have ever suffered in silence but for maybe Jana  ;)  Let’s not confuse modern modest fundies with FLDS and the Like . But you say tomato I say Tomahto. 

I'm not confused, but thank you for clarifying that there is a difference. Actually, there's a whole bunch I could say about the FLDS and their obsession with hair, but - again. - that wasn't the point I was trying to make and there is a separate section on this forum for FLDS discussion if you want to talk about it there. I'm not talking out of my ass when it comes to this stuff. Some people here may remember that I study philosophy and religion at university and my last semester this year had a module on the violence against women in religion. I'm not an authority on the matter by any stretch of the imagination, but I'm not making baseless claims here and if anyone's interested I'd be happy to provide some reading on the matter in the morning, once my head is clear and I've had some sleep. Clothing is often used as a tool of oppression in religious circles, and what secular and mainstream religious individuals may see as benign and simply cute can often be used in more controlling ways within the realm of organised religion.

As for suffering, I would argue that four other Duggar daughters besides Jana, who thankfully escaped physically unharmed, suffered in silence for years after being abused by their older brother, only to have that painfully exposed to the world without any warning. For years, we have heard the saying 'Keep Sweet' from them, and it's not a harmless phrase. To constantly deny oneself of wants, needs, and desires is a skill that is learned young. To recognise the dangers of cults, of religious extremism, and fundamentalism you can't cast aside things like clothing, child-rearing methods, and other family-controlled minutia, because those things are how control and dominance are exerted over a person. 

The Bates daughters grew up experiencing the Ezzo method of baby rearing, and a mother who can't remember all of their names, let alone their birthdays, and were left to raise, potty train (Michael was, at least) and care for children despite being children themselves) whilst their brothers (bar Lawson, who took on family debt and responsibilities far too young) did still suffered, but in different ways. Those girls absolutely grew up suffering but unable to speak about it, because of the command to 'Keep Sweet' and whilst you can absolutely argue that that's nothing to do with their clothes, you can't deny that there is a uniform that fundie girls are expected to wear, whether that's frumpers, modern modest, or a combination of both. 

Of course,  of course to people like you and I, a bow is just a bow. I'd probably put one on my daughter on occasion if I had one (but then I'd also put one on a son and I know not all here would and that's okay it's just a preference).  

I don't know that I can continue to post in this thread tonight because I'm getting riled up and though I do my best to keep polite and civil I can feel my ugly petty side just wanting to be like "oh fuck it whatever blah blah blah" and I don't want to end tonight on that tone when it's been such a nice and civil discussion otherwise, so  I'm going to move on for the night and from this discussion in general.

Apologies for the flounce; I had a really good time on here tonight despite some stuff, so thanks for a nice evening. :) 

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33 minutes ago, tabitha2 said:

It does not seem of the Duggar or Bates girls seem to have ever suffered in silence but for maybe Jana  ;)  Let’s not confuse modern modest fundies with FLDS and the Like . But you say tomato I say Tomahto. 

look at Joy that girl hates Dresses she even admitted to really disliking dresses and going for skirts (Which I'm positive is just because she can't go for pants and I don't see Austin changing that stance any time soon) she even admitted the only reason she wears dresses is because Austin likes them. so we know she hates them but we also know Boob and Mechelle forced her into them since she was a baby. and some pretty hideous ones too. 

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10 minutes ago, Escadora said:

For years, we have heard the saying 'Keep Sweet' from them, and it's not a harmless phrase.

I agree with your post overall, but the actual phrase "keep sweet" is from the FLDS not from the Duggars , though it's similar to what they were taught. I think the way a lot of people on FJ have used the phrase has made people think that it is something the Duggars and other non-FLDS fundies say.

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 But that’s not the same issue as wearing uncomfortable/ activity constricting clothing. She may not like tnrm particularly and that’s another discussion entirely but evidently she can go about her life comfortably enough in her modern modest skirts now. 

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