Counting On Season 5/6/7 Who Knows? It's on Tonight!

[justoneoftwo]

2 minutes ago, nausicaa said:

Just to be clear, my post was about bachelors--graduates degrees are a whole different animal.

I have never heard of an undergraduate degree program where students were not allowed to work. And if a student did not have the money to cover college, they should avoid that type of program and choose one better suited to their financial needs. 

There are many studies that show that for bachelors, high end schools have little networking advantage outside of the Ivies. I know people who attended Boston College, American University, and University of Miami with no connections that have ever led to a job. 

I don't know enough about what false information being given out is? If it's just because the student and parents didn't do their own research,  that's kind of on them. (I do agree that if a scholarship is promised and then reneged, that is unfair.)

I'm not completely anti-debt, but over 100k for a BA/BS is rarely a good choice, particularly if it is in a non-competitive field (and I'm saying this as an English major who enjoyed my studies). Up to about 40k seems to be a manageable amount for most people. 

Good point about what programs we were discussing.  I was mostly talking about graduate programs, which are different.  Specifically, I went to law school, where you are not allowed to work at least in your first year, and the hours worked are limited in later years, networking is massively important, and schools have lied on their reported employment statistics, with no way for students to find the data from another source.  So I'm sorry, my points were not terribly relevant to yours, oops.  

The networking I was thinking of in undergrad was mostly for Ivies or equivalent (MIT, Chicago, Stanford and so on).  

[Snarkasarus Rex]

I would say attending 'high end' schools are an advantage for docs, lawyers, and other occupations that require additional education.  But if you're going to be a teacher, social worker, or any number of jobs where only a BS/BA is required, it's more about what you bring to the table vs. where you went to school.  My sister went to State U. as an early education major, which is a very good school, but not well known outside of the state.  She was wisely told to leave the state to get hired since State U. pumped out so many well-qualified teacher candidates.  There were literally hundreds of applicants for each open position.  She moved to another state which desperately needed her special ed training  and was hired almost immediately.  The principal had never heard of her school.  Her friends who stayed ended up getting non-teaching jobs, months after she started teaching.

[allthegoodnamesrgone]

@nausicaa, I'm the parent of an in coming University Freshman, she is attending a state university, for 1 YEAR of tuition, room & board & books it will cost her $24,543 (that is our estimated total bill we just got today this is in state as well)  this isn't anything but what I've listed, this isn't her school supplies, this didn't include the $1000 MacBook she had to purchase to take to school with her (thankfully this SHOULD last her all 4 years), insurance for her car, parking fee for her car, gas to come home once and a while, clothing, laundry soap & laundry, shampoo, tampons, Kleenex dish soap, Advil, etc.. and maybe she might want to go out and see a movie with friends once and a while or go out to eat, like regular folks. She is going to school 2.5 hours away so she HAS to live there and as a freshman she is required to live in the dorms this year so we can't get cheaper.

How do you work full time to make $30k a year ($25k for school $5k for 6 months of extra living expenses and that is being SUPER cheap) and still have time to go to school?  The track my daughter is on will require extremely hard course work and many hours of extra circulars, wants to be a dentist and they put them on the pre med track to prepare them.  She's taking 17 credit hours this semester and working part time making $11 an hour at a local Starbucks. How does she get buy with out any debt?  We can only help out so much because we also have another child in college.

The problem isn't the students, bad spend habits or being lazy and not working,  the problem is higher education is too fucking expensive. 25 years ago when I graduated college my parents paid a TOTAL of $25k for my education and living expenses. 

ETA: think about adding the costs of health care for a student with chronic illnesses. then we go off on healthcare and that is its own cluster fuck  

[victoriasponge]

I just graduated uni in the U.K. where we have capped fees and what seems like cheaper room & board (no meal plan, I had to cook for myself) and I’m still talking something like £39k of debt plus 3 years worth of interest. Plus my parents gave me money every month on top of that. 

I worked part time as and when my workload allowed and that helped me pay for housing deposits and other big expenses but I’m now completely broke. Couldn’t find a job near my parents so am moving to a completely new area, parents now have to lend me even more money to help me get a place and furnish it. 

Its ridiculous. I’m never going to pay this debt back and that’s not even talking American education prices... Although I have graduated just as our economy has tanked because of Brexit and all of my friends are gearing up for another recession, but that’s a separate issue. 

[HideousGreenShirt]

Can't watch the episode yet because UK, but I had a couple of thoughts.

Firstly as a half Greek person I grew up with all the myths and legends for bedtime stories. And not watered down kid versions. They're hella violent and sexy, those manipulative gods. Also as a Greek person, and this is a deep shame to my family... I really hate olives. Super disgusting, sorry!

Secondly, my family recently had the world's most boring man and his family as lunch guests. The daughter is 24 and currently studying for her masters, not only was she not able to hold a conversation (due to being boring by genetics perhaps) she also had some interesting table manners. 

She scraped every grain from every piece of vegetable from the couscous salad and then pushed them aside, just eating the couscous. When asked if she didn't like vegetables, Mr Boring said she doesn't need to eat them and then scooped them off her plate and ate them for her. When her mom served her a slice of pavlova, she carefully scooped all the cream and fruits from it before handing her the bowl. No allergies - this was confirmed beforehand. Just absolutely shocking! 

[TatiFish9]

@nausicaa I agree with you even though it hurts , because I know it's true. It is the American way. Too many of us live lives we couldn't if we didn't have credit and loans. It's called living beyond means. It's both a privilege and a curse. 

Traditionally higher/formalized  education was for the wealthy (and those with benefactors <now called grants and scholarships>)only because they could afford it. Of course that created a huge disadvantage. In come gov't funded loans. And...voila!

Sucks. Because in an ideal world we could have everything we most certainly want and deserve for free or at reduced price.

[SapphireSlytherin]

@TatiFish9 - I don't know where else to put this question, but WAY off-topic:  can you tell me about your avatar? Who is that person?

[TatiFish9]

@SapphireSlytherin It's Ashley Salyer, Nathan Bates' ex and Lawson Bates' best friend. 

[xlurker]

8 hours ago, Carm_88 said:

they asked her when the Fourth of July celebrations were going to start.

On the flip side of that, I have worked in hospitality, and have had Canadians on Thanksgiving Day (to shop the black Friday sales) complain there was no where to eat in the evening.  When I explained it was a holiday, and while many restaurants were open for Thanksgiving Dinner, that they mostly closed late afternoon/early evening so that they could also spend time with their families.  The response I got was "But it's not our holiday!"  American's may deserve the ugly tourist stereotype,  but unfortunately it isn't only Americans that can act that way. 

[onekidanddone]

I see above there was a description of bad table manners and I have a doozy. 

A while back Mr. OneKid and I were at the Birchmere (if you ever in the Washington Metropolitan Area I highly recommend taking in a show) but I digress. I had finished my food and put my napkin on top of my plate. This guy took said napkin off the plate and proceeds to eat the fries. Eww

He was already annoying because he kept getting up to go outside and smoke several times during the show.  See this why I a bit of a hermit 

[nausicaa]

1 hour ago, allthegoodnamesrgone said:

@nausicaa, I'm the parent of an in coming University Freshman, she is attending a state university, for 1 YEAR of tuition, room & board & books it will cost her $24,543 (that is our estimated total bill we just got today this is in state as well)  this isn't anything but what I've listed, this isn't her school supplies, this didn't include the $1000 MacBook she had to purchase to take to school with her (thankfully this SHOULD last her all 4 years), insurance for her car, parking fee for her car, gas to come home once and a while, clothing, laundry soap & laundry, shampoo, tampons, Kleenex dish soap, Advil, etc.. and maybe she might want to go out and see a movie with friends once and a while or go out to eat, like regular folks. She is going to school 2.5 hours away so she HAS to live there and as a freshman she is required to live in the dorms this year so we can't get cheaper.

How do you work full time to make $30k a year ($25k for school $5k for 6 months of extra living expenses and that is being SUPER cheap) and still have time to go to school?  The track my daughter is on will require extremely hard course work and many hours of extra circulars, wants to be a dentist and they put them on the pre med track to prepare them.  She's taking 17 credit hours this semester and working part time making $11 an hour at a local Starbucks. How does she get buy with out any debt?  We can only help out so much because we also have another child in college.

The problem isn't the students, bad spend habits or being lazy and not working,  the problem is higher education is too fucking expensive. 25 years ago when I graduated college my parents paid a TOTAL of $25k for my education and living expenses.

Oh, I don't think we're any longer in a situation where kids with no college money saved up can graduate school with *zero* debt. I just think the debt can be made more manageable (i.e., kept under 80k).

So, I don't know your daughter obviously, and I'm not trying to get into your business (when did that ever stop me on this forum?), but since she's the example you gave me and I love running numbers...
 

Spoiler

 

Using her current  hourly rate, over the summers she could earn $4,400 and about $880 each semester at 20 hours a week, for a total of $24,640 earned over her college career. (And that's a very low paying job that I think could soon be flipped for something better, especially tutoring as an upperclassmen. Also a second job could be taken on in the summer.) That brings her college expenses to at least under 100k. With a competitive degree, if she continues to live like a student in her late twenties, she should be able to easily pay that off in a couple years after graduation and face turning thirty debt free.

There are a few other options for her to decrease costs more--again not knowing your exact situation. She possibly could have gone to community college for two years and then transferred. Which would have saved quite a bit of money. She could have spaced out her general ed classes at a CC over three years and worked full-time to save money for university. Just two years at a community college would have saved her $60,000. So, the remaining $60,000 in costs for junior and senior year minus maybe about $30k saved working full-time for two years after paying CC tuition equals $30,000 in student loans for a bachelors. Which is a manageable loan.

 

I know it sucks. I know it's not the college experience anyone wants to have. But I'm just saying it can be done. 

 And I agree that college tuition has irresponsibly inflated over the past twenty years. Guidance counselors, lenders, college reps, and teachers all need to stop ignoring financial realities when pushing schools on teenage kids and parents who want the best for them. Our society needs to have more discussions about trade schools, working for a few years after high school, and using community college as a jumping off point.

(Just saw your added comment-- my argument isn't extended to health insurance costs. Which to me are a different problem because of the lack of personal choice in accruing those costs.)

[Greendoor]

On 7/31/2018 at 10:08 AM, SamiKatz said:

What was wrong with the way Ben was using cutlery?  I just thought he was maybe left  handed.

I am left handed.  Your fork may travel, your knife never.  Knives are for right hands at the table.

[MargaretElliott]

The only time I get all bent out of shape about table manners is when someone is being egregiously rude in a restaurant. For example, talking with their mouth full, talking really loud about other diners, openly criticizing the food (if it's that bad, just send it back!), gesticulating with their cutlery, and my least favorite, stabbing their fork into my food to try it and saying "can-I-try-some-" really quickly, so their fork is in my food before I have a chance to answer the question. I don't ever go out to eat with this person in nice restaurants anymore. Granted, I'm not perfect (recently embarrassed myself by spitting out some half-chewed chicken karaage at a restaurant- it was way too hot, and I couldn't cut it with the chopsticks!) but hey, I try to be mindful of other diners.

The way people hold their forks and knives? Meh. As long as you're using them, and not making a mess.  Basically, as long as you're not loudly talking about someone's appearance across the room or calling bean-thread noodles "worms" you're good, in my book.

That said, I try to keep a very 1950s ~*eTiQuEtTe*~ when eating out because I'm a classy motherfucker and a history nerd. No phone, Continental style cutlery use, all that jazz. That's just me, though. Other people can do whatever.

[singsingsing]

I have such a hard time believing that anyone can be that stupid. Why would a Canadian city hold 4th of July celebrations? Why would restaurants in America stay open late on Thanksgiving to accommodate Canadian shoppers? How could any apparently functional human being be that dense?

I mean, I know these people exist. We all have daily evidence of the depths of stupidity our fellow humans can sink to. But it still somehow manages to boggle my mind.

[JDuggs]

I want to add to the topic of higher education for SAHMs. For as long as I remember, I wanted to be a SAHM. But I never just assumed it would happen just because I wanted it. Maybe I would never find a spouse, maybe I wouldn’t be able to have children. I needed to go to school and have a career to support myself at an income level that I was satisfied with. Someone else mentioned that divorce or death (or disability) of the working spouse could also be in the cards. Women need to be prepared for these scenarios. Now I’m in the “season of life” where I don’t have kids at home, so it’s back to the career. I don’t think higher education was wasted on me.

[Irish13]

On 7/31/2018 at 6:42 PM, BernRul said:

As a teacher, I find it very insulting that people in the US are allowed to homeschool their children with no qualifications whatsoever. I'm all for homeschooling if that works for an individual's case--but the teacher better have the education and training for it. It is so offensive that teaching, especially early childhood education, is treated like something anyone can do, no training required. Teachers (in general, I know there's exceptions) are highly educated, hardworking, and intelligent, and many of them nowadays go for their master's degree or multiple certifications. 

If Jessa, Jill, Anna etc want to homeschool that's fine. But they should have a college degree to do it. America fails its children by not having higher standards. 

I am a homeschooler. I have three incredible children that I have been homeschooling 9 years. I started because the blue ribbon school they attended failed my daughter. It took me almost a full year of badgering for them to test her when I noticed she wasn't keeping up with her classmates. And when the results came back they said she needed help, but not enough help for them to actually help her. So I pulled my kids, saved for years to pay over $2000 out of pocket for a neuro psychiatrist to test her. Dylesxia, dyscalula, dysgraphia. After homeschooling with just me as her teacher she will be pursuing a degree in writing. I did it all on "just" a high school diploma. I find your comment insulting, arrogant, and ignorant. It doesn't take special training to teach a child. Parents do it from day 1. 

I will refrain from saying what I really want to say, but maybe with your advanced degrees and special training you can figure it out. The first word starts with F.

[kiwi]

8 hours ago, HideousGreenShirt said:

Can't watch the episode yet because UK, 

I found it on YouTube a really good one too, the first link i tried Jessa sounded like a man lol

 

https://youtu.be/wAIH0RxKftE

[CarrotCake]

For those that are interested in reading more about the Greek Gods and their stories in a fun way I recommend Mythos by Stephen Fry.

[nst]

14 hours ago, victoriasponge said:

I just graduated uni in the U.K. where we have capped fees and what seems like cheaper room & board (no meal plan, I had to cook for myself) and I’m still talking something like £39k of debt plus 3 years worth of interest. Plus my parents gave me money every month on top of that. 

I worked part time as and when my workload allowed and that helped me pay for housing deposits and other big expenses but I’m now completely broke. Couldn’t find a job near my parents so am moving to a completely new area, parents now have to lend me even more money to help me get a place and furnish it. 

Its ridiculous. I’m never going to pay this debt back and that’s not even talking American education prices... Although I have graduated just as our economy has tanked because of Brexit and all of my friends are gearing up for another recession, but that’s a separate issue. 

and now this something - expenses and young in's - education 

yesterday I had a phone call from one of my tenants. She is an educated nurse (30 years of age, been a nurse for 5 years) lives in a 1000 sq ft apartment by herself, pays $1900 a month for it....wonderful great....anyway she has to use the laundry room downstairs and pay for the laundry which is $1.5 and $1.5 for dryer and washer..great again.  

Anyway - she calls me and asks me would I be willing to put in a w/d in her suite....this is a one bedroom 1000 sq ft with a small office off the bedroom which I can claim as a den...it's a great suite...but where is her head ?

Because does she realize it will cost like $5 grand to put it in and I will have to raise her rent to like $2100 at least, and she already has a gas fireplace, granite counter etc...anyway what happens when she leaves - will someone else pay $2100 a month for a one bedroom???um no - all because she can't spend $5.00 on laundry. 

Insanity on both ends

[front hugs > duggs]

I realize I am in a small minority here, and realize how freaking lucky I am, but I was able to graduate from an out-of-state top 5 public university with about $6,000 in debt. In fact, that debt was only because I took summer classes to stay at school to make my senior year course load lighter so I could work more (and because I didn't have a home to go to that summer). I was able to do this partially due to academic scholarship, but largely due to financial hardship - my dad had declared bankruptcy the year I was to start college. I did work study all four years, and for two of those years worked an extra job on top of the work study. 

I graduated college in 2012 with a Bachelors degree in Political Science, and was set on getting a Masters degree in England since I never had the opportunity to study abroad. I found some perfect programs for what I wanted to study - Politics and Mass Media/Communications. I had paid my deposit and was stoked to go. And then my dad pretty much told me I shouldn't because 1- why generate all new debt when I was lucky to be able to graduate with practically none (valid point, and one I listened to) and 2- he insisted that a degree in the intersection between Politics and Mass Media/Communication would be essentially irrelevant and useless.

Can we please take a moment to reflect on that and think about the state of our country today? 

[Shadoewolf]

@Irish13 I had a similar problem with my youngest. His behavior was completely out of control for years but the schools would just suspend him. We begged for testing, 3 school specialists called it ADHD, anxiety, and sensory processing. One residential treatment facility kept insisting it was depression even though the meds they were giving him made it 100x worse. 5 schools altogether absolutely failed my son. After his most recent suspension in the spring, (which we are now filing a formal complaint against the principal for) we reached out to community mental health in our county, who sent Youngest to an independent psychiatrist.  Within 5 minutes of reading his behavioral notes from his school and interacting with him she said what we knew since he was 18 months old, he's high functioning autistic spectrum. He is on low dose medication to control his symptoms and an ADD med to help him get his schoolwork done. It is night/day the difference the right care and the right meds has made. 

When Youngest was pulled against medical advice from the treatment center, his elementary school absolutely refused to re-admit him. (Which later I found out was illegal but lesson learned!) So I was forced  homeschooled him using the K12 program. He was half a semester behind his peers when I took over. Within a MONTH of working with me, he was caught up. Completely caught up. I graduated high school and went to a tech school for medical assisting. I had NO teaching experience at all but managed to make it work.  I have the upmost respect for teachers, and Oldest wants to be one, but I do believe with the right program, someone without a background in education or even college can homeschool successfully.

[Sky with diamonds]

8 hours ago, kiwi said:

I found it on YouTube a really good one too, the first link i tried Jessa sounded like a man lol

 

https://youtu.be/wAIH0RxKftE

Thank you. I will watch this when I can. Been without cable for a few weeks, but at least I can catch up now. 

[MoonFace]

19 hours ago, nausicaa said:

SNIP

College costs have risen exponentially, but even someone who comes from no family money can graduate with a modestly-sized student loan by attending a state university and working full-time in school. No one has to pledge Kappa Kappa Gamma at Georgetown to receive a college education.

We always hear about people with $120k in student loan debt. I live in Washington DC. I know several of these people. And every single person I know who has over $100k in loans for a bachelor's meets at least one of these criteria, often two: 1. Went to an out of state school or private college, 2. Didn't work and used loans for living expenses (and oftentimes splurges like spring break trips), 3. Is not making a good faith effort to pay their loans back. (Twentysomethings with student loan debt are not entitled to tropical vacations or eating out. Attack that shit and you'll have that monkey off your back by thirty.)

SNIP

I did student loan collections for an Ivy League school.   I really loved my job and did my best to help people who were struggling financially to find ways to keep up with their student loan payments.   Some had legitimate reasons for not being able to keep up with payments.   HOWEVER!  I had people call me saying they couldn't make payments because they were (real story!) they needed to help pay for a sister's $30,000 bacherlorette party to be held in the Bahamas!!! They bought a Lexus and the payments were so high.   

THESE ARE LIFESTYLE CHOICES!!   They are NOT "needs".   

One gal told me that she didn't have the the student loan payments (they were in a grace period after leaving school) when she bought her car.  She KNEW that the payments would be starting up in 6-9 months (depending on the loan conditions) -so don't tell me this crap.   Don't buy a new Lexus if you have a used Ford Fiesta budget!

Stop buying a Starbucks on the way to work each morning.   Bring your lunch to work (I did - and I could afford to go out if I had wanted to)  

One guy had the nerve to ask for a forbearance (a temporary halt to payment on your loan due to financial difficulties) on his $200/month student loan - but in his application he indicated that he put away $300 each month for his vacation fund!   Um - NO.   

Get a grip people and set some priorities! 

 

 

[BernRul]

21 hours ago, Pecansforeveryone said:

I think there's a strong case to be made for just loving to learn and being self-taught. World upon world upon world can open to you just by visiting your local library. The Duggar children may rarely have visited a library with reading choices strictly censored. That continues to break my heart. 

I was going to say this. One of the benefits of the Internet is that anyone can have access to knowledge and information. You don't have to put yourself in debt going to college to become educated. My dad was a construction worker, but he devors any books, TV programs, and movies about history. He past that on to me. I didn't study history at college, but I read history books for fun.

I also write stories in my spare time. I took one creative writing class. Most of what I know came from practice, reading books, and the Internet.

I work part time in the summer, so I've started studying Vietnamese (my husband's family's language). In two weeks, I've already retained more words than I did when I took a Vietnamese class in college. I'm teaching myself with the help of the Internet, which not only has instructive videos but also movies and songs to immerse myself in the language. When I'm fuent, I'll do the same thing with Spanish.

You absolutely can teach yourself, and a lot of seemingly "uneducated" people are actually more knowledgeable than some college education people.

 

[HideousGreenShirt]

9 hours ago, kiwi said:

I found it on YouTube a really good one too, the first link i tried Jessa sounded like a man lol

 

https://youtu.be/wAIH0RxKftE

Thank you! May Rufus bless you for your sweet servant's heart and precious diligence.