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Stephen Hammer the law clerk


Hisey

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This is a win for the Hammer.  You still have to be a very successful law student to become an appellate clerk.  Even here in Canada, where the pool of legal graduates is much smaller, it's quite the feather in the cap to clerk at a court of appeals.  The pay is probably crap - less than doctor residency - but it's about the experience and networking, not the money.  

I certainly didn't have any chance of getting a clerkship.  But then again, I spent most of law school partying and traveling rather than cracking open my books.  :)  

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On 7/29/2018 at 11:14 AM, nickelodeon said:

The perennial question: how did these people afford five babies while in grad school? I'm in grad school and I can barely afford five RED BARON® Brick Oven Pepperoni Pizzas.

Stephen is likely using his GI Bill to pay for grad school.  While the benefits probably do not cover the cost of a pricey law school, many private schools have the Yellow Ribbon program that supplies the difference between the GI Bill amount and the total cost.  The GI Bill also provides a housing stipend that is tied to the COL for the area.   It is quite generous and with some careful budgeting, no childcare costs, frugal eating in (not like Stephen is hitting the down every Sat night for drinks!), I can see how it could easily work. 

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As far as affording all those kids in grad school...I'm sure they claim to be debt-free or whatever but you can take out a lot of loans if you have that many children. If he's pretty certain that he will earn good money as a lawyer (i.e. he was devoted to working very hard academically and ranking high in his graduating class), taking out a lot of loans is also not as big of deal as it is in some fields and when you go to a school that is not as highly ranked. 

I have a friend in a PhD program and she has been already guaranteed a very high paying job after graduation in a few years. Her husband works and earns ~$30,000 per year. She earns ~$13,000 from being a graduate instructor as her stipend. They have a 1 year old son and were worried about the cost of daycare in our area as their original plan of a family member looking after their son fell through (before they got pregnant, the family member had offered and agreed) after the family member had a brain aneurysm a few months ago. She has never taken out loans before. They went to a financial advisor who told them to take out the maximum amount of loans given that she has no debt and her husband's debt from undergrad is being paid off by them more quickly than needed and she has a guaranteed job in 2-3 years time that will pay in the six figures. He said they would be better off taking all the loan money, even putting a deposit on house that they can pay the mortgage on comfortably with the combined income and loans, paying for good childcare, and avoiding the stress of watching every penny. Her future boss agreed with the advisor.

For a family of 3, with ~$40,000 per year already coming in, she is eligible for around $10,000 (not tuition money) a semester and can also take out loans over Summer breaks (not sure how much that is). My friend was completely shocked and she's like, "I don't even know what to do with that much money...." But even with one child dependent, the amount of loans she can take out goes up enormously. So with 5 kids, I imagine it would be a pretty livable income.

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I clerked for a judge in NJ and made 23K in 91-92.  We lived in boyfriend's grad school apartment in quasi-slum neighborhood.  $200 /month and we were over the boiler room so no need for heat in the Winter.  We put his entire salary toward our house downpayment.    

In undergrad, the bank servicing the loan would only make it for the amount of tuition minus grants etc. and send the check directly to the bursar's office.  

In law school, companies were falling over themselves to lend me $.  I guess they assumed a future lawyer is a good credit risk.  My friend borrowed for tuition, and so she could live in a fancy apartment in Phila.  To be fair, she went to Temple and North Philly was like a demilitarized zone.  She decorated and shopped and ate well.  She is still paying them off.

Sounds like Stephen will have a lot of opportunity under the present Administration.

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6 hours ago, mydoggoskeeper said:

Stephen is likely using his GI Bill to pay for grad school.  While the benefits probably do not cover the cost of a pricey law school, many private schools have the Yellow Ribbon program that supplies the difference between the GI Bill amount and the total cost.  The GI Bill also provides a housing stipend that is tied to the COL for the area.   It is quite generous and with some careful budgeting, no childcare costs, frugal eating in (not like Stephen is hitting the down every Sat night for drinks!), I can see how it could easily work. 

Harvard does participate in Yellow Ribbon. In veteran circles, they make a big deal out of the fact that they provide the maximum match so that folks attending law school on the GI Bill have all their tuition covered. So Stephen would just need to come up with housing, food, books,etc... He probably got paid at his summer clerkships. And I know from mutual acquaintances that at least up until recently, Meredith was working for her folks doing billing, accounting, etc... for one of their businesses, so presumably they had that income, too.

Law school is $$$, but if you have either a scholarship or grant for the tuition, you can budget and make the rest of it work as long as you're frugal.

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On 7/30/2018 at 3:30 PM, Aine said:

As far as affording all those kids in grad school...I'm sure they claim to be debt-free or whatever but you can take out a lot of loans if you have that many children. If he's pretty certain that he will earn good money as a lawyer (i.e. he was devoted to working very hard academically and ranking high in his graduating class), taking out a lot of loans is also not as big of deal as it is in some fields and when you go to a school that is not as highly ranked. 

I have a friend in a PhD program and she has been already guaranteed a very high paying job after graduation in a few years. Her husband works and earns ~$30,000 per year. She earns ~$13,000 from being a graduate instructor as her stipend. They have a 1 year old son and were worried about the cost of daycare in our area as their original plan of a family member looking after their son fell through (before they got pregnant, the family member had offered and agreed) after the family member had a brain aneurysm a few months ago. She has never taken out loans before. They went to a financial advisor who told them to take out the maximum amount of loans given that she has no debt and her husband's debt from undergrad is being paid off by them more quickly than needed and she has a guaranteed job in 2-3 years time that will pay in the six figures. He said they would be better off taking all the loan money, even putting a deposit on house that they can pay the mortgage on comfortably with the combined income and loans, paying for good childcare, and avoiding the stress of watching every penny. Her future boss agreed with the advisor.

For a family of 3, with ~$40,000 per year already coming in, she is eligible for around $10,000 (not tuition money) a semester and can also take out loans over Summer breaks (not sure how much that is). My friend was completely shocked and she's like, "I don't even know what to do with that much money...." But even with one child dependent, the amount of loans she can take out goes up enormously. So with 5 kids, I imagine it would be a pretty livable income.

Banks lend out money based on their assessment of your ability to repay. Having 5 kids instead of 1 would decrease your chances of repayment. They don't care about your "need" (they don't say, "Better give him more $, he has 5 kids"). They care only about whether they'll get their money back.

It's not like dependent tax credits, where more kids = more credits. When a bank makes an assessment for a loan, they look at existing debt, choice of profession, current income and expenses and similar things.

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1 hour ago, Hisey said:

Banks lend out money based on their assessment of your ability to repay. Having 5 kids instead of 1 would decrease your chances of repayment. They don't care about your "need" (they don't say, "Better give him more $, he has 5 kids"). They care only about whether they'll get their money back.

It's not like dependent tax credits, where more kids = more credits. When a bank makes an assessment for a loan, they look at existing debt, choice of profession, current income and expenses and similar things.

As far as I know, this is incorrect when it comes to federal school loans. It's not from a bank, it's a federal loan and therefore they are basing the amount available on an equation similar to welfare (for example, your dependents) and sometimes this is extremely irresponsible given the person's likely ability to repay. Hence, you have many Americans who are in neck-deep with student loans for degrees that do not likely lead to high paying jobs. I'm not knocking in anyway things like PhDs in Philosophy- I am someone who believes in the value of knowledge and having people in society pursuing knowledge and ideas- but someone getting a PhD in Philosophy could feasibly be eligible for as much in loans as someone with a graduate degree that could be much more transferable to a traditional workplace (e.g. a JD or MD or even a PhD in Marketing).

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3 minutes ago, cindyluvs24 said:

Maybe the families are helping?

That wouldn’t surprise me. The Alexander’s only have 6 kids total and only one other kid is married. They probably have more money to give to their adult married offspring than a lot of other fundies. 

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  • 3 weeks later...

Graduate Student loans are not based upon your credit score outside of certain disqualifers which can be appealed.

They are calculated based upon cost of attendance for grad (or professional) school plus cost of living. Cost of living can be calculated to account for a larger than standard family size or heavier dependence on the student as the primary wage earner.

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15 hours ago, chaotic life said:

Graduate Student loans are not based upon your credit score outside of certain disqualifers which can be appealed.

They are calculated based upon cost of attendance for grad (or professional) school plus cost of living. Cost of living can be calculated to account for a larger than standard family size or heavier dependence on the student as the primary wage earner.

I believe you that this is true, but dear Lord, no wonder we have a student loan mess. So irresponsible on the part of the lenders. 

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40 minutes ago, nausicaa said:

I believe you that this is true, but dear Lord, no wonder we have a student loan mess. So irresponsible on the part of the lenders. 

The student loan mess is caused primarily by students being enticed to borrow tens of thousands of dollars to attend for-profit institutions to train for careers where the market is saturated and they have little chance of making more than minimum wage if, in fact, they are employable at all. Add to that all the students who go to university because it's just what you do, with no idea of what they should be learning (spoiler: critical thinking, writing and research skills).

Financial aid is based on need but I really doubt the atypical graduate student with a housefull of blessings has any effect on the loan mess. It's true that a lot of single parents attend university so they can better support their families with a new career, but they are a small percentage of enrolled students.

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1 minute ago, Black Aliss said:

The student loan mess is caused primarily by students being enticed to borrow tens of thousands of dollars to attend for-profit institutions to train for careers where the market is saturated and they have little chance of making more than minimum wage if, in fact, they are employable at all. Add to that all the students who go to university because it's just what you do, with no idea of what they should be learning (spoiler: critical thinking, writing and research skills). Financial aid is based on need but I really doubt the atypical graduate student with a housefull of blessings has any effect on the loan mess.

Oh I agree. I recently posted a screed in another thread about the student loan mess and how we need to have more honest conversations about what students can and can't afford before taking out loans. 

But Stephen's situation and the way his loans would be assessed is still indicative of a general lack of due diligence on the part of the lenders. For comparison, a man making $25k with five children, a SAHW, and no savings would not qualify for a $300,000 home or business loan without even a glance at his credit score.

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Oh I agree. I recently posted a screed in another thread about the student loan mess and how we need to have more honest conversations about what students can and can't afford before taking out loans. 
But Stephen's situation and the way his loans would be assessed is still indicative of a general lack of due diligence on the part of the lenders. For comparison, a man making $25k with five children, a SAHW, and no savings would not qualify for a $300,000 home or business loan without even a glance at his credit score.


He would if he were in residency, though he might make as much as $35,000-40,000.

For the majority of professional students, there aren’t a lot of other options to finance our graduate training, and it’s worth the investment for long term earnings, if you can survive the short term.
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