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JinJer and Felicity 42: American Girl (grand)Duggar


Georgiana

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I watched it and I'm just not seeing what was wrong with anything Jana said. She seemed tired, maybe, but she was just giving a run down of how the birth went. It definitely didn't sound to me like she was complaining or trashing Jinger at all!

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54 minutes ago, scoutsadie said:

"Jana"?!? Was that the midwife's name? I haven't watched the video, and can't imagine the oldest Duggar girl talking enough or saying anything to justify this response...

it's the only thing that was wrong in the entire special. 

again it was way better and nicer and yes a prettier package then Jill's in every way 

but then Jinger is not the attention seeker her sister is 

1 minute ago, singsingsing said:

I watched it and I'm just not seeing what was wrong with anything Jana said. She seemed tired, maybe, but she was just giving a run down of how the birth went. It definitely didn't sound to me like she was complaining or trashing Jinger at all!

for me it was jana's flat toned delivery of like almost excusing or apologizing for the fact that Jinger was safe in a hospital doing it on her own terms. 

Jana had to throw in a soundbite that seriously you thought she was Jill for a second because of the doom and gloom she wanted to express. 

again the package of jeremy and jinger is different. 

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1 hour ago, Lurker said:

In today's Washington Post there are two articles about inducing labor at 39 weeks with a view to reducing complications and c sections.

 I was not able to do a link, can try again later.

https://www.cnn.com/2018/08/08/health/inducing-labor-39-weeks-pregnancy-study/index.html

I was induced at 39+5 due to IUGR.   It was definitely the right call because all of the "this could go wrong" that they warned me about happened, but they were ready and all is well. 

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Jinger and Jeremy both did well in devising a plan and making the needed decisions/adjustments along the way. Jinger showed good critical thinking and self awareness skills. I applaud her and am happy that she had a a favorable outcome as that will increase her confidence when other decision making situations arise. Jill is not the least bit self aware. Just looking at her reactions in the blood donation and wisdom teeth removable episodes, one could see that Jill is on the more sensitive/emotional side when it comes to pain, yet she never seemed to voice that labor/delivery at home, with what was obviously going to be a larger than average baby might be really difficult for her. Even after Izzy, she thought she'd have an ideal at home birth with Sam. Jessa, OTOH, is just straight up stubborn and might border on over confident. Poor Jill is just so lacking in self (and mostly any sort of ) awareness.

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13 hours ago, Nargus said:

I might be a hardcore anomaly but my experience with a foley bulb wasn’t bad at all. 

I got induced for high blood pressure, at 39+4. I had 2 foley bulbs put in over the 4 days of my induction (that’s a whole other story) and while the first one wasn’t comfortable in the slightest, neither one was anywhere near as bad as what the other ladies here have described. 

Was it the foley in your urethra? Or the foley in your cervix? We are speaking about the foley to help dilate the cervix.

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2 hours ago, nst said:

it's the only thing that was wrong in the entire special. 

again it was way better and nicer and yes a prettier package then Jill's in every way 

but then Jinger is not the attention seeker her sister is 

for me it was jana's flat toned delivery of like almost excusing or apologizing for the fact that Jinger was safe in a hospital doing it on her own terms. 

Jana had to throw in a soundbite that seriously you thought she was Jill for a second because of the doom and gloom she wanted to express. 

again the package of jeremy and jinger is different. 

Jana only said it was dissapointing that the labor wasn't progressing. I don't see what's the big deal about that.

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2 hours ago, nst said:

for me it was jana's flat toned delivery of like almost excusing or apologizing for the fact that Jinger was safe in a hospital doing it on her own terms. 

Jana had to throw in a soundbite that seriously you thought she was Jill for a second because of the doom and gloom she wanted to express. 

again the package of jeremy and jinger is different. 

Jana's in a really rough position.  On the one hand, she probably wants to support her sister and wants her to be safe.  On the other hand, there is clearly SOME sort of influence in the Duggar sphere that is pushing these girls to attempt homebirths.  So many fundie families, including some IBLP big-wigs like the Bates, have gone away from homebirths.  It's significantly less trendy now, and obviously acceptable in fundie circles to plan for assisted births in medical centers.  So there must be something Duggar-centric that is causing the Duggar daughters to buck the trend and continue to attempt home births, despite the obvious dangers.

And whatever that is, Jana, who still lives in TTH, probably has to deal with it more than the other older girls.  She can't leave and go home.  She doesn't have the right to independent thought that the married daughters have to some extent.  She is expected to espouse her parents' beliefs fully, especially in public.

So it could be that Jana feels caught in the middle.  Ardent support of Jinger on camera would be an implicit criticism of Jill and Joy and possibly the party line.  But she also doesn't want to criticize Jinger, and may even personally support her.  The easiest middle road to take there is to state facts without emotion.  I think she's trying to avoid taking any sort of stance on the birth plan.  

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Jana does generally seem to "have her shit together" and be pretty level headed. I do wonder if it's stressful to witness the hot mess of chaos and confusion that the Duggar horde seems to bring. Oh and the shitty frosting on the shirty cake of let's have Jana clean up our mess if a project goes awry or thank goodness "we let Jana tag along for the privelage of watching other people's children." Jana may or may not be over the Duggar shit show. I am definitely over it on her behalf, though. 

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Okay, I'm totally baffled. All Jana was doing was reciting exactly how the labour and delivery went down. I didn't hear her making any judgements beyond the fact that it was disappointing that Jinger wasn't progressing as quickly as they'd expected, which is a given. Of course everyone (including Jinger herself) was disappointed on Jinger's behalf that her labour wasn't progressing as expected. It would be very strange if they weren't.

As for pressure within the TTH to attempt homebirths, eh. I honestly don't know about that. The vast majority of Michelle's births were hospital births. Homebirth is still fairly trendy in those circles, and fundies tend to be 5-10 years behind the rest of society when it comes to stuff like that. Jessa was highly encouraging of any of them having a hospital birth with any interventions they needed, and in the same interview Jana expressed that she herself would prefer to give birth in a hospital or hospital-like setting. Everyone seemed supportive of Kendra's planned hospital birth. Obviously I have no idea what's going on behind the scenes, but... *shrug*

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Jinger strikes me as a person who’s a quiet observer. She seems very self-aware and able to see possible undesirable outcomes and gracefully stare a situation away from that if possible.

I’m not putting her on a pedestal but she seems the most intuitive and level-headed of the bunch. She’s assertive when need be, but in a way that’s agreeable.  That’s why she’s so good at image control. 

Then there’s Jill whose personality is sometimes more annoying. And she’s completely lacking in self-awareness...and doesn’t seem to learn from it.

 

Edited to say: @singsingsing I agree. Maybe the reason Jana’s explanation seems incongruent to some is that the ‘hard’ parts of labour (groaning, panting, exhaustion, and other expressions of pain) were glossed over. JinJer are PR wizards ya know. 

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I feel for Jana especially now being the only adult daughter in that house sharing a room with the littles. If I were her I would be thinking in all these interviews about her siblings life events  "get this over with so I can go back to my garden". I like to imagine she has a little hooch stashed away there, and relaxes out there by herself. Would never actually happen I know. It's gotta be hard to work up enthusiam for the umpteenth time someone is courting, getting married, or having a baby. 

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36 minutes ago, Jinder Roles said:

Jinger strikes me as a person who’s a quiet observer. She seems very self-aware and able to see possible undesirable outcomes and gracefully stare a situation away from that if possible.

I’m not putting her on a pedestal but she seems the most intuitive and level-headed of the bunch. She’s assertive when need be, but in a way that’s agreeable.  That’s why she’s so good at image control. 

Then there’s Jill whose personality is sometimes more annoying. And she’s completely lacking in self-awareness...and doesn’t seem to learn from it.

 

Edited to say: @singsingsing I agree. Maybe the reason Jana’s explanation seems incongruent to some is that the ‘hard’ parts of labour (groaning, panting, exhaustion, and other expressions of pain) were glossed over. JinJer are PR wizards ya know. 

I wouldn’t say they were “glossed over” , just that Jinger had filmed the parts she was comfortable having filmed. Which didn’t include the pain, weird faces and noises etc. They all seem to have different comfort levels with how much is shown and that’s GREAT ! Just like Anna seemed fine, at the other extreme, of showing all the muck and intensitity ( and got endless grief for it ). 

I agree with people saying they don’t see anyone strongly pushing for home birth. It’s a popular thing in both fundie and crunchy cultures. Anna had several successful ones - but also at least 1 birth center- no one seemed to protest that choice.  Jessa had 2 successful ones. Neither of Jill’s went well. Joy and Austin specifically stated they wanted to try a home birth, but were keeping all options open. Jinger and Kendra both planned more medical settings from the start. Where’s the “shaming”?. 

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12 minutes ago, Mama Mia said:

Jessa had 2 successful ones

I'd say Spurgeon's birth was not successful, since she ended up in the hospital after hemorrhaging.

 

 

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4 hours ago, nst said:

it's the only thing that was wrong in the entire special. 

again it was way better and nicer and yes a prettier package then Jill's in every way 

but then Jinger is not the attention seeker her sister is 

for me it was jana's flat toned delivery of like almost excusing or apologizing for the fact that Jinger was safe in a hospital doing it on her own terms. 

Jana had to throw in a soundbite that seriously you thought she was Jill for a second because of the doom and gloom she wanted to express. 

again the package of jeremy and jinger is different. 

I agree. I think TLC packages JinJer as this happy normal couple but I actually find them to be the most repugnant  because they try and hide their beliefs on catholics/ LGBTQ/ trump etc while the others just own their opinions. I guess I have more respect for someone who stands firm in their convictions instead of those who hide what they believe. even if I completely disagree

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5 minutes ago, NotaFanNotaCritic said:

I agree. I think TLC packages JinJer as this happy normal couple but I actually find them to be the most repugnant  because they try and hide their beliefs on catholics/ LGBTQ/ trump etc while the others just own their opinions. I guess I have more respect for someone who stands firm in their convictions instead of those who hide what they believe. even if I completely disagree

A smiling two faced mealy mouth  is far worse than an honest  Jack ass. 

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15 minutes ago, NotaFanNotaCritic said:

I agree. I think TLC packages JinJer as this happy normal couple but I actually find them to be the most repugnant  because they try and hide their beliefs on catholics/ LGBTQ/ trump etc while the others just own their opinions. I guess I have more respect for someone who stands firm in their convictions instead of those who hide what they believe. even if I completely disagree

They're not exactly hiding their opinion of Catholics though!

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Quote

 

Jeremy's church believes in praying away the gay but we never hear about that or really anything to do with his ministry in Laredo which I find highly suspicious. Plus i'll never forget jinger using jessa to fight her battles and be the bad guy when it came to rearranging the apartment before she moved in. It was a smart move but it was also strategic and its always made me look at her a little different

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11 minutes ago, SamiKatz said:

They're not exactly hiding their opinion of Catholics though!

Considering he calls Catholics "demonic" and "pagan"...I would say he's not. 

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48 minutes ago, SapphireSlytherin said:

I'd say Spurgeon's birth was not successful, since she ended up in the hospital after hemorrhaging.

 

 

Disagree. She had a complication following the birth, she received care in the appropriate setting. That doesn’t negate that the birth went just fine. If anything, it shows she and her care providers know how to adjust when needed.

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2 hours ago, Georgiana said:

Jana's in a really rough position.  On the one hand, she probably wants to support her sister and wants her to be safe.  On the other hand, there is clearly SOME sort of influence in the Duggar sphere that is pushing these girls to attempt homebirths.  So many fundie families, including some IBLP big-wigs like the Bates, have gone away from homebirths.  It's significantly less trendy now, and obviously acceptable in fundie circles to plan for assisted births in medical centers.  So there must be something Duggar-centric that is causing the Duggar daughters to buck the trend and continue to attempt home births, despite the obvious dangers.

This seems to be very true. It would also explain some of the women who married in opting for actual medical care and at least contemplating hospital/birth centre deliveries.  I wonder if some of the older Dugger daughters were traumatized by Josie's birth and NICU stay and have developed something of an aversion to or irrational fear of proper pre-natal care and/or hospital births? Jill and now Joy's unplanned and possibly emergency c-sections could have added to the idea that doctors/hospital births are scary and bad. 

I would add that this kind of thinking is completely illogical, but I am seriously terrified of doctors and hospitals courtesy of my experiences with my brother's birth/NICU stay (like wearing a hospital gown standing on a table in the staff break room hyperventilating while the doctor hid outside the room and supervised the nurses feeding me Ativan while trying to coax me down kind of terrified - Not my proudest moment - they all deserved bonus pay for having to deal with me), and while I like to think that if I were to get pregnant that I would seek help to overcome these fears and get proper care, I also have the benefit of knowing that I am irrational on the subject of doctors and hospitals, plus a lot of years of life experience behind me, not to mention friends who would drag my hyperventilating ass to the therapist and/or doctors and make me get care. That said, I can see that if I had gotten pregnant young, and had been surrounded by an echo chamber of people who had little life experience themselves and maybe felt similarly that doctor/hospital = bad things happening that I may have not made stellar prenatal/birth choices, and I may not have even been aware of my own biases and fears playing into those poor choices.

If this is even partially a factor, kudos to Jinger for being brave enough to discuss her fears and get proper medical help to manage her delivery in a way that worked for her. Hopefully it helps Jill and Joy see that medically assisted births can be good things.

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1 hour ago, Mama Mia said:

Disagree. She had a complication following the birth, she received care in the appropriate setting. That doesn’t negate that the birth went just fine. If anything, it shows she and her care providers know how to adjust when needed.

Eh, immediate post birth complications are included in childbirth statistics, so I strongly disagree.  The process of giving birth involves more than just expelling the infant, and it is important that ALL stages of birth (even the post-delivery stages) are managed safely. Jessa's were not.  I would never say that a woman who died from a retained placenta, for example, had a successful birth simply because she managed to survive expelling the child.  We would consider her to have died from childbirth just the same as a woman who dies from eclampsia (who could also have delivered safely prior to dying).  

Jessa also had to be rushed to the hospital in an emergency vehicle.  There was an entire medical emergency that resulted from her decision to have a homebirth that would NOT have been the same degree of an emergency (or possibly even reached emergency levels at all) if she had delivered in a hospital or birthing center.  

It was not a successful birth, it was a cautionary tale wherein both mother and baby were lucky enough to survive.  

Anecdotally, I've never heard any of my friends who have had complications describe their births as "successful" despite everyone living.  They are happy for the outcome, of course, but they say they had a "complicated delivery"  or something similar...never a "successful" one.  

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8 minutes ago, Georgiana said:

Anecdotally, I've never heard any of my friends who have had complications describe their births as "successful" despite everyone living.  They are happy for the outcome, of course, but they say they had a "complicated delivery"  or something similar...never a "successful" one.  

I find that incredibly sad. My mother had two emergency C-sections but both resulted in a healthy mother and healthy babies. It never in a million years would have crossed my mind to describe her births as unsuccessful.

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Once is mistake, two times is bad luck and 3 times is a habit and if  they go for a third try like that they just dummies :)

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3 minutes ago, singsingsing said:

I find that incredibly sad. My mother had two emergency C-sections but both resulted in a healthy mother and healthy babies. It never in a million years would have crossed my mind to describe her births as unsuccessful.

I think the problem here is using such a binary term.  Obviously its successful if both live with no long term complications.  But that doesn't make it the best result, it can still be unnecessarily complicated.  I would add that a home birth is not a successful home birth if both patients don't remain at home.  One of the two goals in the name was not achieved.  

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