Kentucky House Fire

[Aine]

I haven't read this article the whole way through in awhile (a few years at least) but this article about Cameron Todd Willingham sparked my interest in learning more about forensic science as whole and arson and fires in particular. It also really jump started my interest in capital punishment, legal decision making, and so called expert testimony in cases. That has in turn started my 'side line' area of research studying the behavior of juries and prosecutors and the public when it comes to assigning fault and blame and how different forms of information can give rise to anger or empathy/understanding/compassion. I also have a study running at the moment about how information is presented, especially scientific information (fake science and real) regarding various kinds of crimes, and how well it is understood by the general public and how believable is it judged to be by various demographics of people. My main research interests are the dissemination of evidence-based practice in my field, and the interaction of substance abuse and trauma- so this 'side line' can kind of be argued to fall a tiny bit into the dissemination area but not really. I call it my 'research hobby' right now. 

https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2009/09/07/trial-by-fire

[JillsFlowerHeadband]

On 11/24/2018 at 9:06 PM, formergothardite said:

 That she totally gave up and just laid down to die is odd especially since her husband didn't find her in the room, he found her by the door. Did she take the children with her to the door? Did she leave them in the room? I'm sure it all happened extremely fast and with a lot of confusion, but I can't imagine just giving up when a door wouldn't open. I wonder if the heat from the fire warped the door frame and that is why she couldn't open it. But it doesn't seem like there would have been that big of a drop if she had grabbed the kids, busted out a window in the bedroom and dropped them out. Of course, she might spend every single day thinking these things and feeling guilty. I do wonder if she is is some deep, deep denial about everything and that is why she seems this way in the brief glimpses we see. There is no way she is getting real help in that church environment and being in denial might be the only way to cope right now. 

I am still stunned that she waited till the dryer was no longer drying to change the lint filter. 

I think it is best she has made her FB private. There was no good going to come from keeping it public. 

I just read about this family on Sally’s blog after I clicked over there in reference to something in one of the Naugler threads and was utterly disgusted by the way Deb framed the whole thing, to me it almost seemed like she was implying (even though she was quick to yell “I’m not saying this happened but”) that the parents just let the kids die or worse, started the fire to kill the kids so they could be free. Ugh. Just disgusting. 

The reason I quoted your post, @formergothardite was just to comment that I have a relative who’s a firefighter and he’s made reference several times to door frames/doorknob mechanisms in burning structures being warped by the intense heat (especially in old mobile homes like that one) so that may have been why she couldn’t get the door open? 

Also, whoever said that the chemical fumes in smoke from a house fire can cause people to get disoriented was absolutely correct. In addition to that, smoke inhalation lowers the amount of oxygen going to the lungs and by extension to the brain. The mom may have just been so disoriented that she didn’t even know what she was doing, and later on struggled to come up with an explanation of what happened because she just didn’t know. 

Grief makes people behave in strange ways. Christin has acted weirdly, sure, but as many have said, she may be expected to suppress her feelings and put on a bright face. Poor family, my heart hurts for them. I can’t imagine losing my girls along with my home and myself and Mr JFH being badly injured on top of it. 

I guess what really spurred me to comment was the contrast in how the people at “catty, mean, bitchy, evil” FJ responded to this horrible tragedy (with sensitivity and compassion) as compared to Deb’s passive-aggressive accusations and nastiness. 

[formergothardite]

39 minutes ago, JillsFlowerHeadband said:

reference several times to door frames/doorknob mechanisms in burning structures being warped by the intense heat (especially in old mobile homes like that one) so that may have been why she couldn’t get the door open? 

One thing the fire department said was that the mobile home had shingles over a metal roof and that made it even hotter inside the home. After seeing the pictures it is amazing any of them were able to get out. 

It seems like both parents WERE pretty injured in the fire, so I'm not understanding the claim that they got out unhurt while the kids didn't. 

I do think that perhaps all the Facebook live videos could have been away for her to help mentally distance herself from the horror of what is happening. It seems like her circle of friends almost expected her to slap on a happy face and say she is content with whatever God decided. What sort of support would she have gotten if she started expressing doubts?  

 

[Terrie]

Her behavior is, if anything, an example of how certain religious groups warp people's normal behavior. But that's not as much fun for the vultures as mocking an individual.

[formergothardite]

On 11/28/2018 at 12:27 PM, Terrie said:

Her behavior is, if anything, an example of how certain religious groups warp people's normal behavior.

Yes it does. She made a new FB video and I found it so hard to watch because it really shows this. She kept saying over and over that she wasn't mad at God and she wants her babies in heaven to know that. To me it seems like she feels that if she shows any negative reaction God is going to let her kids know and they will be disappointed in her. She also said that she shouldn't question why God would do this to her because that is the wrong question to ask. 

It is heartbreaking to think of going through what she went through and then not even feeling like you can openly express being upset at it or even why it happened. It reminds me of Sparkling Laura who believed in no negativity so she couldn't view her son's murder as being a negative event in her life. 

 

[mollysmom]

On 11/26/2018 at 12:00 PM, Aine said:

I haven't read the fire report and am only just learning about this family but one thing I will say is that trauma does some crazy things to a person's memory. I can't imagine the panic and confusion upon waking up (so already not that alert) to your house on fire and then adding in the noise of a fire and the heat and not being able to see for the smoke and darkness and then likely the noise and movement of the children at the same time. She may have not been able to open the door to the room due to the heat of the door knob or the pressure on the other side of the door from the fire (it's very difficult to open a door into a raging fire).

Then if they took her statements immediately following when she and her husband were both being treated in hospital and Ireland was still fighting for life and she was likely struggling with immense guilt and trying to make sense of what happened herself? I think some statements not lining up might be expected.

If there is something 'off' with the sequence of events, hopefully the authorities are investigating that. But I can't imagine losing your three children, you also grappling with the trauma of it all and trying to piece your snippets of memory back into a coherent whole, and then people wondering if maybe you're lying.

I've been reading a lot lately about the forensics of fire. Basically, many scientists are finding out that everything many people have thought they knew about fire is not correct. It's now becoming apparent that there have been people put to death through capital punishment already or currently sitting on death row that have been convicted on questionable science. A lot of people imagine what they would do in a house fire situation but some of the science coming out has shown that that may not be possible (e.g. opening certain doors, even smashing certain windows etc) and that the smoke and the fumes coming from the many materials that make up your things and your house can very much mess with someone's ability to think rationally. 

Excellent points! I was a volunteer firefighter for years & this is all stuff we try to get people to realize before a fire ever happens. Plus, if I remember correctly, didn't they live in a trailer type house? Those things go up in flames EXTREMELY fast in a fire.....alarmingly fast. 

[Aine]

2 hours ago, mollysmom said:

Excellent points! I was a volunteer firefighter for years & this is all stuff we try to get people to realize before a fire ever happens. Plus, if I remember correctly, didn't they live in a trailer type house? Those things go up in flames EXTREMELY fast in a fire.....alarmingly fast. 

Going down the rabbit hole of research the "forensic science" *cough cough* after reading the article I posted above and then many peer reviewed journal articles and other investigative journalism pieces made me so much more aware of fire alarms and carbon monoxide alarms and that we didn't have enough in our house and to keep checking that they're working. I had an apartment fire in my first year of grad school. My housemate, who was randomly assigned to me and my other random roommate, started a grease fire while frying fries in a frying pan at 1am. We had sprinklers in our house and I woke up to the fire alarm, expected it to stop because it was probably someone burning toast, and walked out of my room to dense smoke and fire in the kitchen and then the sprinklers went off. They don't "sprinkle"- it's like a fire hose coming from the ceiling. Most of the damage was caused by the sprinklers because of the flooding, ruining carpet and water soaking through walls, something to do with the amount of water coming out of the sprinklers made the sewage come back up out of our toilets in each of our bathrooms so that was gross (sewage flooded into all our bedrooms), and only the fire department could turn off the sprinklers so we had to keep watching the flooding while we were all soaking wet from getting out. It was an awful night.

But that fire wasn't that big, it never took hold, and even though you shouldn't put water on a grease fire (my roommate tried and that's what made it worse), those sprinklers well and truly took care of everything. But he'd thrown the whole frying pan into the trash so there were plastic fumes and the whole place was full of smoke so quickly after the fire started. It was confusing, scary, awful, and most of it is still a blur. I cannot imagine how your recollection would be if it was bigger, took hold while everyone was sleeping, and you couldn't find your kids.

Weirdly enough, that guy who started it became one of my best friends and I had the frying pan mounted on wood with a plaque saying: "A reminder to never fuck up again. And Crisco is never a good idea." He still has it on his living room walls haha. 

[mollysmom]

Are her and her husband still together? 

[JenniferJuniper]

4 hours ago, mollysmom said:

Are her and her husband still together? 

No.

[mollysmom]

Thank you. I thought I had heard that somewhere but never heard it again. Wasn't sure. 

[Howl]

On 11/26/2018 at 1:43 PM, Aine said:

this article about Cameron Todd Willingham sparked my interest

Anyone living in Texas has been reading about this case for a long loooooong time.  I need to revisit it. 

[Aine]

8 minutes ago, Howl said:

Anyone living in Texas has been reading about this case for a long loooooong time.  I need to revisit it. 

Yes, I know it got a lot of attention within Texas. As I follow Pamela Colloff's work so closely, a lot of the cases that I know well or that have been my introduction into wrongful convictions, the pseudoscience of a lot of forensics that is allowed to be presented in court (and people are killed or are sitting on death row because of some of this 'evidence'), and the politics of crime in the United States has come out of Texas. It's a pet interest of mine and something I am weaving into my career as more of a "side specialty" right now. Coming from a country that has not had the death penalty since the early 70s and executed its last person in 1968 (even before my mother was born) and that refuses to extradite people if they will face the death penalty in their own country, I've long had a morbid curiosity with capital punishment and decided at a young and precocious age that I did not believe in it.

Taking away my views on capital punishment, I will never ever understand how a governor/judges/prosecutors can refuse to hear evidence that someone is not guilty and not give a stay of execution. They claim to be Christian usually and that life matters and if that is the case, you should be damn sure that the state is not killing an innocent person. There is no argument on the face of the earth that will change my mind that such a decision is outright evil.